Card/Deck Making Gruul do more than stompy, or make stompy Gruul more interesting?

[Kirblinx]

I second this RG control motion. I like to think I helped Grillo with the idea with this draft in his redesigned cube about 3 weeks ago.

RG WormFire from CubeTutor.com

Seems like a decent archetype that doesn't feel too insular as you can use any of these cards in other archetypes. The sub land sac theme is pretty juicy as well. Sure it is just 'another green ramp deck', but any deck that incentivises me to casting Dragonlord Atarka more than I probably should be, has me giving 2 thumbs up!

 

[Jason Waddell]

Is that a cube with Deathrite and no fetchlands?

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Its a draft cube, and I just added a set of fetches.

 

[KlavierAchse]

I've been asking myself if / "creature storm" is a viable archtype now for a mid powered cube.
The goal would be a deck that gets consistently to a high spell count (like 4-5) in a turn and then somehow profits from that spell count.
So I'm not aiming for a really big turn where it's do or die like in the usual storm setup.
Bonus points if the payoffs and enablers are somehow creature based.

Spoiler: Enabler

Spoiler: Payoffs

Spoiler: Refill your hand for more storming

Spoiler: More traditional Storm supects

Spoiler: Random stuff from my cube that has overlap

Is this archetype/deck too narrow?
Or does this have enough cross pollination with other themes to put it in a 360 card cube?

Whoops post wasn't finished and published on accident, but I think it has enough meat already and I'm too lazy to look for more cards

 

[sigh]

Sounds like a fun deck, but I do worry that the "enablers" section is a tad parasitic. If your cube can utilize that type of effect in different decks, then it seems decently viable, otherwise it will have the same issue that traditional storm does. Just being it's own deck off on the side.

"Whenever you cast your second/third spell" would be another angle for payoffs.

 

[blacksmithy]

i think “double spelling” is much less narrow than actual storm. it’s very hard to cast 3+ spells in a single turn more than once a game. of course there haven’t been a LOT of double spell payoffs printed, but there is some great overlap with magecraft and “draw a second card” that you can get into. my cube does this overlap of double spell/draw two/magecraft in multiple colors, including RG, if you want some card ideas:
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/shingekinocube

 

[Brad]

This can probably be something, but I think you're going too hard. I'm going to edit your post and leave what I didn't like. Keep in mind that having 1-2 MV spells is an enabler for this, too. Mana dorks and burn spells are G and R staples that will power this up.

Spoiler: Enabler

Gut Shot depends how often it can kill something and Curio depends how nasty it can be.

Spoiler: Payoffs

Thrasta might suck, but it's really cool. Seems difficult to evaluate, as the MV fluctuates a lot. Project and Whisperer depend how fast the format is and if you can afford to have a kind of soft turn 4. Empty and Chatter depend if storm=2 is an alright cast.

Spoiler: Refill your hand for more storming

I personally dislike how Miracle works, especially if you guys are tight on rules. Fate looks a little too, but other suspend cards like Ancestral Vision splash or Rift Bolt can add a storm count and are very good. Maybe Fate's good, I've never played it.

Spoiler: More traditional Storm supects

Grapshot backup plan of being a bad Shock or something is alright. I don't like the direct rituals.

Spoiler: Random stuff from my cube that has overlap

Is Repository good? Looks like a conditional ramp spell and I'd maybe prefer something more solid? Not sure. Bloom and Helm depend how many of your decks are interested in those kind of effects.

You could flood the board for devotion. Suspend. Rebound. Flashback.

There's the "draw 2" cards that kind of connect this to blue. A couple were in green and a few in red, I think. The same kind of spam deck, but for spells, is in UR, too.

 

[Erik Twice]

I've been thinking hard about this colour pairing and read practically every piece of information on the internet about it. But I'm still not happy with it. Lands is ok, but it's more of green's thing and otherwise ties too much into parasitic GR Landfall aggro. Spells is ok, but that's more of a Jeskai thing and I'm not sure if I want to expand it.

Monsters is just goodstuff. Discard works, but I think the amount of payoffs is low, especially in green. So yeah, I haven't found a solution yet.

 

[blacksmithy]

yeah, the closest i come to a unifying theme in RG is domain/converge stompy (see spoiler below), but i don’t really try too hard to make sure each guild has “its own thing.”

Spoiler

 

[Brad]

Territorial Kavu is such a sweet card. One I really wish I could run. Big body, land-based payoff, hand fixer, discard enabler, yard hater. Nearly a staple, especially if you're doing shock-fetch or similar. Even the RG storm deck can benefit from drawing a spell and discarding a land or something.

 

[sigh]

If all else fails, is it such a bad thing to have a color pair that can showcase some nice curve out Beatdown decks? Its not like the format would suddenly be a midrange hellscape lol.

I do personally think "lands" play well in the color pair (green gets the lands, red spends the lands, both can care about putting lots into play) but if thats not materializing for you, beat down is a perfectly valid option IMO. You can make it tie into the concept of lands with stuff like Radha and Multani, Yavimaya's Avatar etc

 

[Nanonox]

I've been asking myself if / "creature storm" is a viable archtype now for a mid powered cube.

Does it have to be creature storm or are you willing to use more instants and sorceries? I ask because you seem to be using a bunch of instant/sorcery payoffs in addition to creatures. Things open up quite a bit with the addition of non-creatures.

I'd advise you to check out @dbs cube. His versions of RG creatures are higher power and seem to go for a more broken turn, but some cards could still interest you, like:

+

Different kind of payoff (tall vs wide), but has some overlap with Temur Battle Rage which you already run.

+

The Provisionner isn't actually in his cube, but I think it could fit with your Lotus Cobra as a ramp investment for futur turns. Valakut is great at getting you cards though and randomly doming the opponent in the process.

+

Cheap cards that let you find what you need all the while triggering your Managorger Hydra + Deeproot Champion.



Is a creature, ramps in all types of Gruul decks.

-----------

On another note, maybe adding more effects like Druids' Repository. Stuff like Grand Warlord Radha, Xenagos, the Reveler, Cryptolith Rite, ...
If the effect is good enough, maybe you want another for redundancy.

+

This could be another tie into storm. Use Green's mana dorks to generate mana for a combo turn.

It's tough to make work, but I think the tools are there!

 

[blacksmithy]

If all else fails, is it such a bad thing to have a color pair that can showcase some nice curve out Beatdown decks? Its not like the format would suddenly be a midrange hellscape lol.

I do personally think "lands" play well in the color pair (green gets the lands, red spends the lands, both can care about putting lots into play) but if thats not materializing for you, beat down is a perfectly valid option IMO. You can make it tie into the concept of lands with stuff like Radha and Multani, Yavimaya's Avatar etc

This notion of green make mana red spend mana is another pleasing “archetype” that just kind of emerges in a lot of cubes i think. like i have all the kicker/flashback burn spells in red, and then not really ramp but just a lot of mana deployment stuff like radha, courser, excavator etc etc in green that help you get all your lands out in play so you can start paying 5 to flashback firebolt and 7 to kick roil eruption and close the game out

 

[Rasmus Källqvist]

This notion of green make mana red spend mana is another pleasing “archetype” that just kind of emerges in a lot of cubes i think. like i have all the kicker/flashback burn spells in red, and then not really ramp but just a lot of mana deployment stuff like radha, courser, excavator etc etc in green that help you get all your lands out in play so you can start paying 5 to flashback firebolt and 7 to kick roil eruption and close the game out

I think a benefit of this is that you're describing a relation between two categories of cards, rather than an interaction between two individual cards, which should make it much more natural to put a "make mana + use mana" deck together. Seems less gimicky.

 

[LadyMapi]

I think you probably could make RG into a pretty satisfying graveyard color, if you wanted to do something fancy with it? Both colors are good at stocking your graveyard, after all, and both colors can do fun things with the cards in your graveyard. Heck, there are some pretty nice Delirium (and Delirium-adjacent) cards in the two colors, if that's what you want:



But I agree with blacksmithy — you can already make a neat little archetype by just running a few strong-but-inefficient cards in Red and ramp in Green.

 

[Brad]

midrange hellscape

Should have been my original cube's name.

I don't think it's too bad to have one problem pair be kinda good stuff. Maybe even a couple. Like, RG "good stuff but kinda cares about lands a little" is totally viable, imo. As is the same deck in GW.

This notion of green make mana red spend mana is another pleasing “archetype” that just kind of emerges in a lot of cubes i think. like i have all the kicker/flashback burn spells in red, and then not really ramp but just a lot of mana deployment stuff like radha, courser, excavator etc etc in green that help you get all your lands out in play so you can start paying 5 to flashback firebolt and 7 to kick roil eruption and close the game out

Sounds like a great plan B for "make mana and storm," too.

I think there's definitely something to be done with casting a bunch of shit in RGu.

 

[sigh]

I think there's definitely something to be done with casting a bunch of shit in RGu.

I would heartily agree with this sentiment (this example is much more RUg, but mostly because it was very easy for me to find. RGu definitely works too. Just, working mobile. Tomorrow I can find a RG base version)

 

[blacksmithy]

I think a benefit of this is that you're describing a relation between two categories of cards, rather than an interaction between two individual cards, which should make it much more natural to put a "make mana + use mana" deck together. Seems less gimicky.

Yeah, and i find these categories of cards in lots of people’s cubes, to the point i think a lot of us are running such an archetype without realizing it. not sure what to call the archetype, to be honest.

I would heartily agree with this sentiment (this example is more RUg, but mostly because it was very easy for me to find. RGu definitely works too. Just, working mobile. Tomorrow I can find a RG base version)

i agree completely. i’ve found that both Temur and Jund can reach nutty spell velocity if you back up the midrange beef and land/mana deployment of RG with some card draw from blue or black. even just going base green in RG gives you a lot of draw power.

 

[blacksmithy]

I think you probably could make RG into a pretty satisfying graveyard color, if you wanted to do something fancy with it? Both colors are good at stocking your graveyard, after all, and both colors can do fun things with the cards in your graveyard. Heck, there are some pretty nice Delirium (and Delirium-adjacent) cards in the two colors, if that's what you want:

Almost missed this good post!
This is also a good one, however, you need to stretch a bit to make it work in pure RG. i find this works AWESOME as an intersection of RB and BG. You pick up stuff like Grim Flayer, Kolaghan’s Command, Cut//Ribbons, Witherbloom Command… plus stuff like Unearth and premier delve threats in black to further utilize the graveyard. black also has several good “discard me” cards like Bloodghast and Woe Strider.
if you did want delirium/GY as a Gruul guild deck, i think you really, REALLY want to break singleton on Faithless Looting, and you probably want to be on Territorial Kavu too.

 

[LadyMapi]

Faithless Looting and Life from the Loam are your friends.

 

[sigh]

One of the cores of my RG section:

 

[Dom Harvey]

Coming back to the thread title after all this time, I think Stompy can be a lot more interesting now but most of the other themes that have emerged since then are still not well supported. The exception is RG Tokens, which has a lot going for it:

- The card pool is deep enough that you can support the theme at almost any power level
- Red and green contribute different things naturally/by choice (controlling creatures payoffs vs sacrifice payoffs in red, +X/+X or counters mass pump in green vs +X/+0 mass pump in red, fewer and bigger tokens in green vs more and smaller tokens in red, populate in green)
- This theme isn't unique to RG at all but that means you can have it spill over into W or B where each colour pair contributes something different
- Good gold incentives if you support planeswalkers (Domri Anarch of Bolas/Sarkhan Vol/Xenagos/Arlinn)

 

[Erik Twice]

The exception is RG Tokens, which has a lot going for it:

How do you support RG tokens? Particularly in green. I've thought about it but my token cards are all very expensive (Deranged Hermit, etc.)

 

[blacksmithy]

How do you support RG tokens? Particularly in green. I've thought about it but my token cards are all very expensive (Deranged Hermit, etc.)

Spoiler

 

[sigh]

Spoiler