Min/Max Midrange Cube Experiment

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Yeah, you're right, its all zones, which still isn't the end of the world, but oh well.

The only other real card to consider is karmic guide, which I feel is a little bit too good stuffy and moves away from the micro-reanimator feel. There is also a consideration for running banisher priest, as tool box removal.

Its also worth noting, for all of you folks out there that wanted squadron hawk shannigans:




Is the up-gunned, cube equivalent .

For a different format, the fact this can be tutored up is intriguing:

 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Added



To finish up the control package, as another incremental lifegain tool. This is just a really strong and efficient package, built around the following core cards:




And of course, you can flesh out from there, with powerful high CC spell effects, counters, efficient removal, and reasonable blockers in the 1-3cc slots. This, however, gives a core of removal/counter recycling for a long game, as well as the ability to sort of "tank" hits, rather than being forced on a creature-centric offensive.

The healthy consequences of enabling this effects the izzet guild, which has always been kind of an odd duck in these formats i.m.o. The go-to deck for this guild is always "spells matter" but there is a certain level of cognitive dissonance in running a spells-centric deck in formats that focus heavily on midrangy creature or planeswalker pressure. It was kind of a pain in the initial foundation laying, and looking at other formats, izzet lists always seem to be kind of good-stuffy decks floated under terms like "counter-burn" and other nomenclature that seems to hide their true reality as vendilion clique + ral zarek decks. In higher power formats mana rocks let them become a wildfire deck or maybe they run the cheap kiki + mite combo, or are just another upheaval deck. Boring.

Of course, the classic problem with a spells matter deck in this combination (as anyone knows who has every ran delver) is that it contains an easy mis-build, by drafting an aggressive variant loaded with the multitude of cheap red aggressive creatures every cube runs, whose density undermines any really spell centric mechanics from blue.

There is still something of a concern with this, but I think I've largely made the two colors mesh reasonably well together.

UR spells from CubeTutor.com












This is something of a jack-of-all-trades master-of-none list, but it showcases a lot of the different ways the combination can go.

1. There are token makers in blue and red that can help the deck slow down the game for a more controlling stance, but can also enable a sort of aggressive go wide strategy, reminiscent of the mono-blue decks from theros standard. Bident of thassa works well with the tokens, while red's mini-overuns provide muscle that can be protected by counters. Spell density still matters in this plan, as young pyromancer can come down as a defensive two drop, controlling the board with tokens that are later converted into pressure. Rise from the tides fills a similar function. This can pivot between a more controlling version that wants to use tokens as game slowing devices, before recycling removal with elixer/cane as hard control, or a more assertive tempo version that wants to pressure while drawing cards, waiting to setup a big overrun with counter support.

2. Or alternatively, it can play out more like the UG tempo decks, playing a slower game before getting out a single large threat for a double strike hit, but instead of depending on green pump, using spell density to grow an evasive prowess threat like niblis of frost, before hitting it with a red double strike effect, shutting down the board, and coming over for lethal. Burn can close any remaining life out. In this setup, cards like niblis, guardian of tazeem, or blue bounce, can open up board states to allow a large charmbreaker devils through.

So you have a combination with a sort of hard control core that enables creature light builds, that can than splice with elements of two different sorts of tempoish combo approaches, both of which benefit, but aren't overly dependent on spell castings. The drafter can go creature heavy or creature light, still getting something that feels unique, but more importantly, functions well.
 
Very cool control theory. I wish there was another bauble besides perpetual timepiece that let you "shuffle any number of cards", because being able to leave the chaff/obsoleted cards in the yard is very good. If only timepiece cost a little less...

It does seem like lifegain is a very important component of this deck style, because it seems to operate on a slower tempo than direct recursion. Maybe a support piece like sun droplet could come in here, if needed. Elixir is obviously already very strong in this role. I'm contemplating adding it to my own utility artifact suite for similar reasons.

Thus does also seem like a good spot for trinet mage to make an appearance? Also the new Whir of Invention seems cool here, tutoring from a toolbox of control and utility effects.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I think elixir is easily strong enough for the main cube, and probably a reasonable double choice. Trinket mage is already in the format, and has a pretty good selection of targets. Sun droplet is on my short list of reasonable recurring sources of lifegain--really small selection of cards that do this.

The only other two elixer/cane like baubles are





And I am assuming these cards only work with minimal mana investment, unfortunately. One other incidental benefit of this is that it provides a source of readily available gy hate in the format. This just seems to add to the argument of the benefits of having strong control decks in a format, rather than just blue jund.

Here is another very odd deck

R/G/w recursive ramp? from CubeTutor.com












I got cut a lot more on red than I had expected, but the deck is ramp, sweepers, and lifegain. I don't know if it would ever get to the point where all of its self mill/card draw would have it slowly recurring select cards from its gy alla the G/W self-mill control decks from SOI draft, but that line is certainly possible. Its reminds me a lot of the RGW creatureless "lands" decks from the Spiral cube, and its kind of exciting to see something similar suddenly possible in these types of formats.

And of course...everything exciting happens at 3. Maybe I should try moving one of those ramp sells to something lower costed.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Random thought: maybe its important to understand that formats may contain certain biases. For example, this format is always going to have a bias towards midrange decks, so the question than for designing aggro and control is how to make them feel distinct enough, using the midrange-centric draft tool box upon which they will have to draw, that it creates a perception of being born from a different well. I think you can see that here with how all of the decks have a strong bias towards three drops.

I used to think of it as midrange was poaching control or aggro's tools, but maybe that was wrong, and I was too fixated on constructed concepts of aggro and control, where each individual deck is its own self-contained card population, and they can shift critical mana points to whatever extreme it wishes. Here, all decks have to be born from the same card population, so you can't really shift critical mana points around to confirm to constructed concepts.

In cube (or any draft format really), everything has to adhere to the constraints of the same index, rather than individual, specialized indexes. Maybe thats all that traditional aggro, midrange or control really are: reflections of different mana points within a specialized index (deck).
 
Along the lines of graveyard recursion: are the decks that seek to do this thing (nearly) always blue? And do they often need to go through their library more than once? Quite some time ago, between cubes that we put any amount of effort into, my friends and I (with some assistance that wasn't quite legal in California at the time) invented the Durdle Cube, where graveyard recycling was a fairly normal interaction thanks to the cube's glacial pace. We learned that while Elixir of Immortality is one way of doing this, and certainly the most compact way, one-shot spells that recycle the graveyard in combination with Regrowth effects do the job just as well. There are a number of options along these lines. Archangel's Light and Mnemonic Wall was an early favorite, though there are certainly less janky options. Psychic Spiral is particularly cool with low-grade self mill of the sort Rise from the Tides incentivizes, and Learn from the Past is also fine. In my very limited experience playing the Old School format, I've found that Timetwister and Regrowth is a classic combination that will (eventually) get the job done. Timetwister is also just super cool and probably not all that overpowered, though it might be a bit too orthogonal to what this cube is up to. Then again, Niblis of Frost and Talrand love it, and it's a strange/interesting form of incidental graveyard hate. Also great with fast mana or low curves.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Its a fair format, so everyone is/should be focused on creature pressure and value generation revolving around the mana points of 3 and 4. If however, a deck starts to move into space that allows something more fancy, using the fair midrange tools I have provided, than more power to them.

Thats pretty much the role of the recycling pieces: they already fit naturally into the format, given how grindy and value oriented decks can be. In a longer, hard fought battle between a U/x deck and a G/x deck, being able to shuffle back in critical pieces to redraw can be huge--especially in a singleton format.

However, its possible that one of these slower decks, in certain matchups, may find themselves running precariously low on cards, and in that instance, may find that they created something rather unique. Now, maybe they try to lean heavier on that angle in future drafts, but I've found that the perception of being able to deck oneself in these slower 40 card formats, can be enough to steer a drafter towards the more assertive decks that seem to dominate these formats. Simply having a gaea's blessing, or loaming shaman can be valuable for their ability to ease the perceptions, and open the format up in ways it may have always been capable of, but which may not have been recognizable.

I'm not really interested in true self-mill, though that might exist. I'm interested in having slow decks in U and G, and any self-mill deck that results is just a pleasant afterthought.

This does have me thinking though about big mana targets in green, and whether we've been thinking about those wrong. Once you hit 6 mana, the though is that green (and blue) for that matter should be running some sort of high impact finisher and quickly ending the game (which green is kind of bad at in cube). Maybe the thought should be that this is control/ramps (the mana superiority decks) critical game phase point, and the point where it begins really game state crafting. The late game would be fully embraced as part of interactive game pacing, rather than having the focus purely on the middle, and expecting green 6s to just resolve and finish things out.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
To kind of make my rambling more clear: these formats are already naturally about grind contests; the recycle cards just say to the player: "hey, if you want to play a really extreme variant of this, I am going to allow it," and thats what the format's control identity essentially is. I'm kind of worried that there is being too much focus put on the self-mill aspect as an archetypal or thematic ends.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Yes, exactly, those are really good: especially the first one. Rav/tsp standard was just so amazing.

This is the best excerpt framing the concept:

My friend I@n DeGraff (of Team ICBM fame) was describing the nature of how the deck worked recently to his ICBM teammate, Dave Carhart, and they gave me an entirely new insight into how my deck works.

“Ah,” said Dave, “The Baron is actually a deck with a kind of A.I. built into it!”

Wow. I had never conceived of it as such, but that is exactly what the Baron is about. Mike Flores once wrote on the Sideboard that captured my initial thoughts on my deck: “In 1998, Eric Taylor wrote that there were almost no new deck ideas. He said that there were very few new actual decks since the inception of competitive Magic, the first of which was Adrian Sullivan's Baron Harkonnen, which would later become the inspiration for polychromatic control decks such as Donais U5C and any U/G list based on Gaea's Blessing, library manipulation, and Oath of Druids.”

This was close. Mike views the Baron as a kind of derivative of Weismann-style Blue-White decks from way back in the day, but I really think that I@n's friend has it best. This deck learns as it plays. People look at Baron decks that I've built over the years and one of the first things that they ask is “Do you really need the Blessings?” or, next most common, “Do you really need three Blessings?” The answer, for this archetype, is an emphatic YES.

You're not using Gaea's Blessing in a Baron deck to try to make sure that you never deck, or to give yourself a slightly thicker library, you're actually trying to make your deck able to learn. There is a certain threshold of card drawing, card selection, and recursive elements to a deck that make your library slowly sculpt into something that would be unbeatable by your opponent, given enough time. Each passing turn is another turn in which your deck and hand are improved so that there are nearly no possible outs available to an opponent. If this inevitability weren't the goal, you wouldn't need the three Gaea's Blessing slots.

The article got me thinking too, from this excerpt about the role careful consideration plays in the deck.

The Careful Considerations really allow you to be able to play one-ofs that are quite conditional, if very powerful in that condition. Clearly the Teachings allow you the ability to get the best bullets in the particular matchup, but the Considerations let you put those weak bullets into the bin, while the Blessings act on teaching the deck what to do. Oftentimes there might not be time to cast an early Blessing, so it is incredibly common for the first one to be discarded, but once the mid- to late-game set in, you are generally very happy to be drawing the Blessings. Versus the other control decks, you find that you have an inexhaustible supply of control-worthy cards, and versus the aggressive decks, you have an inexhaustible supply of board control.

It cannot be said enough that the Considerations are crucial to this arrangement, letting you dump the cards that have no place in either the matchup or the moment into the graveyard, and allowing you little luxuries with the set up of your library.

That is exactly what people have been trying to do by breaking singleton and running 3+ brainstorms and double to triple fetch lands for years. This is obviously not as rawly powerful or ubiquitous an application of filtering and library manipulation, but in terms of format health and identity it might be much better to center this style of filtering in U/G.

1. If we are talking about enabling control (and we are), control decks tend to have lots of higher CC clunky cards while trying to find and match the appropriate answers with the appropriate threats. Giving them the ability to filter their hand so it matches up with the phase of the game and the matchup, is really valuable in a singleton based, diverse format, like cube.

2. The types of cards we are even talking about running to do this, open up the format more, by enabling the more tap-out style of solar flare control decks that also originated from the era. These are the decks that would run 4cc reanimation, to get back a 6-7cc target with a moderate body and ETB.

3. Sigh mentioned that its unfortunate that there aren't more effects to allow the control player to both shuffle and sort of filter what is in the yard, but this need creates an interesting synergy with the delve keyword, in particular where it shows up on removal: death rattle, murderous cut, logic knot. Running a configuration like this with DTT might be too good?
 
I think delve + mass GY recycling is a great way to get around the problem of mass GY recycling generally not fulfilling the "AI" role discussed in the excerpt quoted. Your deck ends up effectively the same as before... Delve offers the opportunity to get the unneeded pieces out of the way (BW versus control, conditional removal in the wrong matchup, lands, etc).

I think a potential card to help out the deck's overall plan:

This card was an important role-player in the Spider Spawning Deck, which could play out in this sort of deck-optimization-recycling approach. I, of course, love flashback, and two activations can really put it over the top in having enough of an impact in entraining the decks "AI". Being also able to work through self-mill, or being discarded early like Adrian describes on Blessing #1, is a huge plus.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
There is another easy card to run too, if you are looking for a second copy (or a third copy), and don't want to waste a guild slot:



The only real issue with reclamation and memory's journey is potential player bias. They might want to have something slightly more powerful, like the cantrip from blessing or the body from loaming shaman to really bite.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
So our last conversation was pretty cool, and I have some follow-up thoughts, as sullivan's first article hit some interesting notes on TSP-RAV standard vs. efficient cantrips..

Namely it had never occurred to me that TSP-RAV standard was defined by sifting effects rather than efficient cantrip effects, and the extent that this shaped control identity in the format, as well as the implications this can have for cube.

One thing that always seemed interesting to me for blue based answer decks from that period, was the extent that they were able to thrive in an extremely diverse format. Answers weren't unusually ubiquitous in that format, and the mix/match quiz of consistantly finding the right answer to the question being asked becomes harder the more varied the questions and less ubiquitous the answers.

Often times its much easier to just shift to a more assertive game plan, perhaps using counters as disruption rather than as answers.

However, sifting cards lets you run a great diversity of cards intended for different matchups or phases of the game, but retain the option to exchange them for more relevant cards, if they show up at the wrong time or place. They naturally enable reactive gameplay rather than proactive gameplay, because you want to wait a little bit to see what does or does not line-up in the matchup, and this is reflected in generally higher mana costs. In addition, many of these cards will also contain some sort of conditional card advantage clause. Smoothing was something that happened in the mid or late game, as a response to what had happened in the early game, and thus had a very strong mechanical identity, of working best in slower, reactive decks, whose strategic posture would revolve around in-game restructuring while finding the best way to garner value off of the sifting.

And this was reflected in the format, where you had the aforementioned baron decks that used blessings to essentially recalibrate the deck in real-time to the matchup, or the UB dralnu decks that used teachings and flashback from dralnu to structure a removal suite, the more aggressive solar flare decks that broke symmetry by dropping a selection of controlling ETB fatties into the yard for reanimation, or the firemane angel decks that used the sifting to get rid of redundant copies of narrow cards/drop its namesake card into the yard for synergistic value that could be recurred later.

Smoothing, in this era, was generally the province of think twice, which generally fits better on a control plan, and brilliantly has flashback for added synergy with the sifting cards.

Just a really cool way to link the hand and the graveyard in a way that gave tremendous identity to control, and it never occurred to me before how this simple choice of card design was so foundational.





The efficient cantrips on the other hand, are really good cards, but have very weak mechanical identity. They can be ran in any blue deck, they don't care if the strategy is pro-active or re-active, they are good at any point in the game, and the only mechanic they link to is shuffling (arguably the most miserable) for which they essentially require fetchlands. Most significantly, the tend to focus on manipulating the TOL rather than the hand, which is a problem for control decks that want to restructure situational cards that have been drawn. This (in conjunction with other NWO factors) can easily create a bias towards proactive rather than reactive strategies in blue, and mana points 4cc or less, as reprograming the hand becomes much harder and clunky high CC spells more of a liability. This is especially true if your removal is more conditioned rather than unconditioned.

The only exception to this is brainstorm with a shuffle effect, but which still allows the card to be re-drawn.





My point here (and this is perhaps one of the paths by which a power max metric can lead to good stuff in these types of formats) is that one set of cards pushes a strong mechanical and format identity, and the other set of cards do not.

For example, one way I could choose (as a cube designer) to structure my blue draw would be to focus on sifting cards in the 3-4CC slot, and than big mana draw at 6CC + (stuff like stroke of genius), rather than running something like ponder alongside fact or fiction, which ask nothing of the drafter during the actual draft or deck building phase.

The former creates very strong mechanical identity, firmly stating that card selection is going to be reactive in nature, and that card advantage will require slower game play. The intersection with the graveyard suggests specific control configurations: solar flare and baron at a minimum, creating a deeper drafting experience that just assembling removal + card draw + threat.

The important thing here is that this diversifies significant mana points. The ponder-FOF setup gives you everything exciting by 4 mana, while the other approach invites a game of early answers into a calibration puzzle to setup for a 6+ mana payoff. This bleeds the formats mana point identity out, creating a reason to think of mana point 6 based strategies as being distinct from mana point 4 based strategies.

The realization that this is even a design option, is rather exciting.




Though speaking of diversified gameplay and bleeding out mana points. I'm increasingly of the opinion that traditional ways of thinking of aggro-midrange-and control from constructed are just horrible for cube. The reason being that if a cube or a deck are just an index of cards, you can never bias a cube towards specific mana points in the same way you can a deck. In a constructed deck, you just concentrate all of your spells at a certain mana point and call it a day, while a cube (while the vast majority of cubes) demand broader mana point representation, and 2s fold naturally into 4s.

Aggro, control, or midrange identity largely comes from the incentives to draft at different mana points, and a big part of the cube designers role is creating those incentives.

For example, with aggro, all of these CMC or power/toughness of 2 or less cards are great, because in sufficient density they establish a clear incentive to draft around a lower mana point. And those cards offer tremendous utility, meaning: aggro can be more grindy or controlling, gain consistency from library manipulation, be recursive in nature, build large board states, or build up to an aggro-combo finish by several means--all in addition to being a source of early assertive board presence, which is something that comes naturally as a by-product of the low CC deck existing in a format.

As far as communicating your format intent with your drafters by means of the draft, its far more important to include clear incentives to lead them to any given mana point, rather than mechanically filling out the cube's mana point's quota and just walking away, hoping they figure it out.
 
So, like:


To parallel your mana costs. Interesting they both use the word careful. Neat.

I've found the part about having the situational cards stuck in hand (say, <naturalize effect> or <too-late mana rock>) is the largest barrier to making this work in any format. Being able to flush out the chaff efficiently and powerfully really should help this deck plan function?

Add in cube favorites Compulsive Research and thirst for knowledge, and seems like a nifty card draw suite aimed more at actively shaping the hand throughout the game. Over just generically gaining more cards/quality for little effort. Neat.

Edit: I find it amazing that Careful Study has only seen print once. Is it not a beautiful piece for a multitude of different limited and constructed formats throughout the years and I'm sure in the future?

Editedit: the full curve seems to go:

See beyond is a cool card that does the Shuffling part of the equation for you!
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I've been toying around with a second list that more fully embraces these concepts, just to see where it can go, and the effects are pretty far reaching.

Whats neat is that once we take away the high power blue cantrips, and go down the reactive reprogram route, a lot of other cards suddenly seem to close the gap with what blue is doing, and there is some interesting color bleed.





All cards that become better when we are running them in a reactive red deck, where we can hold and pitch in the mid or late game after getting an idea of the game's context.

Since Innistrad, we've also gotten a bunch of TOL cantrip effects in green (grave pulses), which suddenly make a lot more sense when we're allowing slower reactive strategies. Most of those cards will put fairly narrow conditions on what you can grab with them, and you can't really fire them off in the dark effectively. They also tend to be slower and more mana intensive (the best of them, vessel of nascency is a 3cc investment). Lucre put it best:

Maybe you wasn't listening mate but maybe I wasn't being clear enough. Impulses aint usually turn 2 plays unless you is got a combo you are frantically searching for or really need your anger of the gods.

Impulse is a turn 2 play the same way brainstorm is a turn 1 play.

Play impulse once your plan has started to have legs and you have some extra mana to spend on one of your turns, I know you're gonna we've all put a lot of emphasis on bulking up the 1-2-3 slots at the expense of 4-5-6.

Now [Turn 2 Grisly Salvage -> Turn 3 Tasigur + Removal Spell] is great but thats a special case.


One of my biggest problems with mulch is that getting lands late in the game is damn near useless and binning my thragtusk is actively quite bad in most riptide cubes as everyone here seems to hate even the card necromancy.


It feels like there is a real stratum here of enablers for reactive strategies, and while these cards can cumbersomely be forced into other contexts (perhaps broken ones in constructed), in cube they are mostly at home in a format supporting reactive play where they can function as reprogrammers in the mid or late game.

And once we take the focus away from bulked up 1-2-3 slots and pro-active pressure (the type of structure that blue power cantrips alone can thrive in) we have a huge density of foundational cards across three colors that are directly feeding the graveyard, and an entirely new design space is opened up.
 
Another class of cards that I see helping this methodology of deck construction out:

And so on. This gives black buy-in to the deck-building plan, but also is another angle for what blue can be doing. These cards help telegraph the plan of the opponent early, and are perfect targets for the reprogramming later in the game. The second turn Impulse, so to speak, can be a good play when you have the T1 knowledge of what to dig for.
 
I think these sifting cards are neat.



Probe is like a kind of worse Thirst For Knowledge that gets a lot stronger in UB decks late in the game. I think I would play it in a format that wants it even if I couldn't pay the kicker.

Attunement feels like it can really tear through your deck although you're not really doing very much during that time. It seems like playing Attunement turns 3 and 4 and then casting Gnaw to the Bone would be pretty backbreaking.

Read the Runes seems like it could lead to some neat stuff with that that cares about permanents dying. As a sifting spell, it'll probably be worse than most others but the flexibility along the curve and instant speed seems like it can slot in whenever you're just hanging out kind of like Think Twice.

I think the last two are more in line with cards like Faithless Looting and Careful Study than Thirst For Knowledge and Careful Consideration.

I'm really glad that this discussion about how to handle blue card draw/ card quality manipulators has come up as I've found it interesting. Looking more into the solar flare decks and other standard decks of that era makes me want to work on a cube that focuses on capturing the feel of standard from like Mirrodin to Lorwyn/Shadowmoor. So many neat things seemed to be happening (aside from Faeries and Affinity and Jitte being miserable)
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
So here is another relationship I've stumbled upon. Lets say we take these cards again:



And put them in our slower format with curves pushed upward, where we are expecting them to be occupying the same niche as the blue sifters. A player is going to be using them reactively, holding them until the midgame, than using them to reprogram their hand by discarding off-curve, redundant, or situational cards.

In our control variants, we were going to try to break symmetry with graveyard recycling, but in this slower, higher curve format, we might also consider another option for our red sifters.



With the gameplan being to hold until 5 mana, and than using the madness mechanic to turn a sifting piece into a card advantage piece, while at the same time adding to the board. This also creates a focus around a midrangy number of 5 and creates a strong midrange identity (rather than just say play ETBs/play planeswalkers).

This is consistent with the original idea behind madness in SOI, that it was supposed to be a value mechanic, but which was hard to capture in cube because you never really had time for it.

Maybe the habit of blindy adding new cards with each set is creating something of a mis-calibration. You have a sort of slower mid-power format around 2006-2007, than a big power spike once you get into M11-SOM, and they have been slowly tapering away from that (say starting with KTK). Tormenting voice might look good enough to slot into a cube (say the min/max), but than easily end up not being in-line at all with the existing core architecture.

If your format is pushing you to evaluate these from the position of being proactive plays, rather than slower reactive plays, maybe there is an issue.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Some more random thoughts on the atl. metric we were talking about.

So no surprise, I've been thinking about grave pulses as TOL manipulators in green:




These seem like solid midrange cards to me, because they are focused on getting creatures rather than spells. You're holding these until the mid or late game when the midrange deck has ran through its hand, and than firing them off to ensure you win the TOL war via consistent threat presentment. As a consequence though, potentially critical instants or sorceries can end up hitting the yard, so there has to be a mechanism in place to get those cards back. You still have the recyclers from before, but its also possible that this could feed into a strategy where the graveyard extends into becoming a complete extension of the hand.



And of course, seasons past fits this mode, though maybe dreams is a safer card to run.

Also, a few other middish power ways to control gy contents:



Finally! An excuse to run bearscape!

I was also thinking about some of the flashback creature spells in green, as green has this weird sort of pseudo spells matter theme, and that would be kind of a neat way to intersect the two. Plus the instant speed ones seem to be reasonable in the more draw-goish UG tempo decks.

I hate to say this, but I am kind of close to writing off delirium as a good mechanic. I can't really use it as an incentive here, because the power level of cube is too high on average. The mechanic has the same problem as threshold, where the gains on board are not as good as the lost opportunity to cast powerful spells. Its ironically fine in instances where the cards are naturally hitting delirum, at which point you don't really want to deplete cards in the gy into any kind of resource.
 
Delirium may eventually rotate out of my environment. They really left a lot of holes in what the mechanic needed to play more than an incidental role. I feel like it's so close, but they were just a little bit too conservative, and didn't explore the space quite enough. I'm still experimenting with it/supporting it for now....

Damn shame, if you ask me.

Luckily, you seem to be exploring a good natural space where other GY mechanics and formats can still have fun with the space. I know I've definitely included pieces like this, but never actually laid out a plan, beyond my RUG experiments.

What about the enchantment {G} TOL manipulators? The Library is obvious, but also mirri's guile

Recollect and Restock should prolly be
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
The mythics they printed I like quite a bit, but its frustrating how weak the other cards are.

Good catch on wildest dreams! I think I will want to leave at least one recollect/regrowth effect in, just because they don't exile. Recollect->krosan restoration is an infinte loop for people that really want to run their libraries down.

I'm I insane for suddenly being excited about this spell as a green big mana payoff card?

 
Grillo, sorry to be slightly off topic on this thread, but I was curious about something:

In one of your early posts on this cube thread you mention the cube's mana being around 13% and approaching "Karsten's" preferred mark for fixing. I am aware of Karsten's well known articles on mana, but was there ever a resolved consensus on what that should be for cube design? I tried to sift through some other threads on mana but couldn't tell if a resolution had been attained!
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Its ok, I went waaaay off topic.

I don't think I would say there was ever a resolved consensus. Probably more that a majority has a preference closer to Karsten's numbers, while a sizable minority disagrees, to various extents and degrees.

i.m.o you want somewhere from 11-13% fixing from lands, and the closer you are too 11%, the more important it is to have at least some alternate fixing source for decks (artifacts etc).
 
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I guess I'm still wondering how everyone is interpreting Karsten's numbers and translating it into N number of lands in a cube. Help!?
 
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