New year, new... Cube?

[Alphez]

Hello guys,

After a veeery long absence, I decided to rebuild my cube.
While the present iteration is new and untested, it is based on data and impressions from my older Cubes - with some new design ideas thrown in.

Here is the list on CubeCobra.
Some key elements about this Cube:


Modern power level with nostalgia elements
My aim for this Cube is to hit a fairly high power level, close to that of the Modern format, while incorporating as many nostalgia elements as possible. This means including powerhouses from older formats, but putting them in a context where their ability to cause harm is limited. Some of these cards function very differently here than they do in Vintage, for example. Take Timetwister: a powerful and iconic card, but in a very graveyard-centric list like mine, it comes with the huge downside of obliterating your own graveyard. At the same time, it can act as a hate card against opposing graveyard strategies. Or Yawgmoth's Will, which is much more manageable in a list without Rituals or Moxen and with incidental graveyard hate happening quite a lot.
The balancing is not easy and I might have under/overlooked some cards. If you have opinions on this, I'm all ears.


The 'mechanics diet'
Some time ago there was a very interesting discussion about 'Elegance in card selection' on this forum. It made me think about what 'elegance' meant to me. I came to the conclusion that I wanted to limit the amount of keyworded mechanics in my Cube. I thought this would make it friendlier to new players, make drafting faster, and reduce the overall complexity of board states. The restriction definitely affects Cube building, as you can't always count on the usual go-to choices to fill certain roles. However, I think the resulting list feels much more like a coherent drafting environment rather than a complete mess.
The keyworded mechanics in the Cube are:

- Delirium
- Devotion
- Flashback
- Landfall
- Ninjutsu

Plus these two, which aren't really keyworded mechanics, but still:

- Phyrexian Mana
- Sagas

If you propose additions or changes to the list, please take this design restriction into account. I am open to replacing some of these mechanics, or even adding extra ones, but I would only do so if a new mechanic can offer multiple interesting cards.


Broad archetypes
In previous versions of my Cube, I associated each colour pair with one or two key archetypes. That worked decently, but I was not fully satisfied. It felt a lot like drafting on rails, and it was difficult to maintain balance between all the archetypes without filling the list with narrow cards. So this time I decided to take a different approach, focusing on 5 macro-archetypes - each one loosely based on 4 colours. This should improve replayability. The archetypes are as follows:


- Artifacts. The biggest players here are blue and red, but there are good incentives to branch out in white and black. The deck can be aggressive or more controllish. There are also combo-ish versions possible, courtesy of Daretti, Scrap Savant and others.




- Graveyard matters. With self-mill and looting scattered across all 4 colours, graveyards are easily exploited. There are multiple possible decks, from Delirium-based midrange to a controllish Reanimator deck. There is also our friend Laboratory Maniac with the whole crew.




- Aristocrats. This is a pet archetype of mine, and its Rakdos version used to be one of the strongest decks in my old Cube. I tried to water it down a bit and open it to more colours. Black and red remain the key colours, especially for the most aggro version of the archetype. However, it's possible to branch out in white for a prison-style deck, or in green for a midrange strategy.




- Ramp / lands matter. Green is the undisputed king of this archetype, but the payoffs are scattered across all 4 colours. Blue is a good supporting colour for a landfall-focused deck, while red and white are better if you just want to slam fatties on the board.




- 'Tricky aggro', as I call it It is a collection of aggro or midrange decks trying to do cool things. Esper has a focus on blinking and ninjas, while Bant is a flash midrange deck. This is the least-defined archetype, although there is some overlap: some of the best ETB creatures have Flash, or are evasive, or both, which makes them interesting for multiple decks.




This is it, for now.
Having moved to a new country, I cannot really count on my old play group. I hope that, once I build this list, I will manage to gather a new group of people to draft somewhat consistently. That's quite a long shot, I know, but hey! Gotta start somewhere.

I'd be happy to hear your opinions on this new list And if you happen to live in or near Brussels, drop me a message. Let's draft!

 

[dbs]

The list looks pretty stream-lined, I like it. I like the very dense overlapping archetypes too. Took it for a spin and ended up with this aggro list:

4C Self-Mill Aggro

 

[Nanonox]

I don't know how to post decklists from CubeCobra, but here is one I drafted that I felt was pretty sweet: UG artifacts. I like trying things your cube isn't supposed to do (green isn't an artifact color), and I think it's a good deck (though Mystic Snake + Crystal Shard can be miserable).

https://cubecobra.com/cube/deck/5e28cc85bed55b1defbd14a1

I came up short on a second Tinker target (I was really hoping for The Great Henge) and was missing a 5 drop or 2 for Birthing Pod/Vannifar for even more fun.

The only things that seemed out of place were the random buffs (Giant Growth and others seemed weak) and some of the payoffs which seemed to be trying too hard (Retreat to Valakut seems so slow compared to other things going on for example).

So basically I would get rid of the really low power cards (Cobbled Wings and such) for more bread and butter cards that all decks can use (like removal and draw).
I like your broad archetypes approach to building the cube and it was a fun puzzle to see which direction was open and what I could get away with.

 

[Alphez]

Thank you guys for giving my list a spin and for the very useful feedbacks.

The only things that seemed out of place were the random buffs (Giant Growth and others seemed weak) and some of the payoffs which seemed to be trying too hard (Retreat to Valakut seems so slow compared to other things going on for example).

So basically I would get rid of the really low power cards (Cobbled Wings and such) for more bread and butter cards that all decks can use (like removal and draw).

This all makes a lot of sense. Cards like Giant Growth were there mostly for the nostalgia factor, and because I like having some combat tricks in the list so that combat phases are a bit more interesting. But yeah, there are better ones out there. Maybe something like Blossoming Defense would already be better.

I also agree on the idea of getting rid of the 'tryhard' archetype payoffs. Because in the end, even if you are building a specific archetype, you would simply be playing anything else rather than an underpowered payoff.

I might also end up cutting Stoneforge Mystic. It was meant to be an anchor in white for artifact decks, but it forced me to include as many Equipments as possible - and there are simply not many good ones, if you don't include the Swords of X+Y (which I don't want to have) and the ones with keywords I don't support.
My main concern is that, if I cut SFM, there is not much artifact support left in white. Maybe I could add Tempered Steel. The card is as narrow as they get... but most of the other artifacts-matter cards I have in white push drafters towards aggro, so maybe it's a decent addition. Or I could just add some more white artifact creatures, or artifact token producers, and call it a day

 

[TrainmasterGT]

I'd be happy to hear your opinions on this new list And if you happen to live in or near Brussels, drop me a message. Let's draft!

I think you have a lot of really interesting ideas at play here! There seems to be a lot of overlap between your archetypes, and there is some masterful design craftsmanship at play here. I'd like to give you a full critique, but I do have a number of design criticisms which probably are not best said unsolicited. Would you be ok with a critique?

 

[Alphez]

I think you have a lot of really interesting ideas at play here! There seems to be a lot of overlap between your archetypes, and there is some masterful design craftsmanship at play here. I'd like to give you a full critique, but I do have a number of design criticisms which probably are not best said unsolicited. Would you be ok with a critique?

Hello Trainmaster! Sure, I'm happy to hear all the feedback you have!
I'm here to make my Cube better, after all!

Meanwhile, I also made a number of adjustments - mostly based on Nanonox's advice.

- I cut Stoneforge Mystic and its Equipment package. Let's face it, at this power level, either I play the Swords of X and Y, or SFM is a trap. So, out she went. I opted to add a keyword (historic) in order to give White some new, interesting interactions with artifacts. Having Sagas in most colours, as well as a healthy dose of Legends, should make the historic cards less narrow than other options.

- Added some extra archetype layering, with cards like Wildfire and Approach of the Second Sun.

- I reduced the multicolour section to 3 cards per colour pair (down from 4). I just don't want drafters to be compelled to play 3-colour decks all the time. That's already bound to happen with my archetypes being represented in multiple colours, but having some more mono-colour cards in the Cube might help mitigate the issue.

- I cut some stuff on both the extremes of the power band. This applies both to generic cards and archetype anchors.

- I cut some cards that felt unnecessarily wordy, and replaced them with 'cleaner' counterparts.

- I removed all the duplicate cards, with the exception of the double-shock/fetch manabase. I liked the idea of having 'benchmark' cards for some basic effects, but that's indeed a deviation from what most people consider the Cube norm. I considered it simpler and more elegant, but going against the assumptions that your drafters have might actually feel like an extra cognitive burden to them. I don't think my second Rampant Growth was worth the risk

- Added some more classic cards, for nostalgia. Because everyone loves Serra Angel and Hypnotic Specter, and rightfully so.


TL;DR, I cut all of these:

Spoiler: Cuts

And replaced them with these:

Spoiler: Adds

 

[Nanonox]

I'm liking most of these changes except for the Spear of Heliod one. You just added Heroic as a keyword, so I think you should keep your artifact count up, even if less elegant. It's these kinds of little things that add up and create a deeper format!

 

[TrainmasterGT]

Hello Trainmaster! Sure, I'm happy to hear all the feedback you have!
I'm here to make my Cube better, after all!

Part 1: The Good
So this cube does a lot of different things very well. I think you've done a very good job of layering together cards which can go into multiple decks without necessarily needing to be played as a "23rd card." Stuff like Anax, Hardened in the Forge can work in both your bread and butter aggressive type decks while also being a great enabler for Aristocrats strategies in red. There are tons of examples like this all throughout the cube. Springbloom Druid for ramp and graveyard decks. Artificer's Assistant as an enabler for Artifacts and for Ninjas. Emry, Lurker of the Loch for artifacts and mill. A lot of the cards I'm seeing are capable of going into between 2 and 3 different decks. There is a very clear understanding of what each of your 2-4 color archetypes seem to want to be functional.

I also like your adherence to a mechanics diet. It makes your cube a lot easier to digest in some regards since I can easily figure out wether or not a specific mechanic is supported. Unlike in other cubes, I don't need to discern wether or not Lotus Cobra is for an actual landfall deck or just for ramp since there are other landfall cards present. Now, I do think cutting back too much can have some negative consequences (which I will discuss later), but overall I think this helps you out a lot in terms of keeping things simple.

Part 2: The Odd
Despite your generally good calls for design, you take this too far in a number of areas. For example, your green section has Brindle Shoat and Viridian Emissary present. Neither of these cards make sense in any of the archetypes you appear to support in green. The only reason I can see for these even being in the cube is to help with aristocrats deck, and even then neither of these cards really seem to be that good. Green really isn't a great 'crats color to begin with and I don't see what you're gaining by having these cards here. The power level of options for this deck in other colors is way higher than either of these specific cards as well. There are a ton of other examples like this peppered throughout the cube. D'avenant Trapper in White, Harvest Pyre, Scourge Wolf and Gibbering Fiend in red, Loch Dragon in your izzet section, and more.

Because you're using so much space trying to seed specific decks, you're ending up eating space that more generalized decks need to function. You seem to be putting in the general pieces for traditional mono-red and mono-black aggro decks in your cube, but you don't have enough of the enablers for those decks to function. Aggro decks, fundamentally, are all about density of effects. If you want to have a mono-red deck, you need a lot of burn spells and a lot aggressively focused of one or two drops creatures (depending on where you want your aggro curve to start). You only run 4 red 1 drops for aggressive decks, and you're only running 4 burn spells which can hit face. That may seem like a large percentage of your red section, but you need to remember that multiple people will be picking up the "bread and butter" cards regardless of wether or not they're aggressive. Everyone in red is happy to be playing Lighnting Strike. Therefore, if you want to make sure your burn player can get one, you should also be playing Searing Spear and Incinerate (or other similar burn- you could go up or down the mana curve depending upon what you're comfortable with running). I think your black aggro density is closer to correct, but I'd still add another one or two one-drops (more on that later). The goal here isn't to "water down" your archetype strategies so much as it is to use cards that can go into a wider range of decks. I did a couple of test drafts of your list, and I could get some of the pieces for what I was trying to do but then later in the pack get flooded with very narrow cards (especially 5/6 drops) that I couldn't use in my deck.

In addition, I think your mechanics diet is hurting you just a little bit in some areas. There are a few absolutely fantastic cards that mesh perfectly with your cube that you aren't running for what I can only assume are diet reasons. The two big ones I see missing are Tireless Tracker and Changeling Outcast. Tireless Tracker is probably the single best "Landfall" payoff in green other than Lotus Cobra. In addition to supporting your lands deck, it also meshes with Aristocrats and Artifacts. Meanwhile, Changeling Outcast is great because it's so good at supporting Ninjas and Black Aggro. He can't be blocked, so he can get in damage even when the board gets gummed up. He has relevant tribal synergies as a changeling- he's a Ninja for your Ingenious Infiltrator and a zombie for your, Cryptbreaker. It would help your black decks out a lot to include Changeling Outcast.

Other than that, it also looks like you've adding some cards just because they have a specific keyword on them and not because they really stand on their own in terms of power level. Scourge Wolf is not great for 3 and 4 color yard decks. Scourge Wolf's means that it's going to be hard to cast, and the payoff of a 2/2 first strike that sometimes has double strike isn't that good. Something like Bloodrage Brawler, by contrast, always has the 4-power body and actively feeds your yard decks instead of being a mediocre payoff. I think your other delirium cards are fine, save for Gibbering Fiend. I think Topplegiest especially is a good use of space since it can go into multiple decks of differing speeds in a way most other cards can't.

Like I said earlier, I think your diet helps you out a lot in terms of keeping things simple. It's just you're cutting out so many "complexity calories" that you're turning some of your decks anorexic.

Part 3: The Changes
Unlike the other two sections in which I tried to go fairly in depth about what the larger format-wide boons and banes of your cube, I'm not going to write as much about each individual change I'd make on a card by card basis. I can expand on any of these more if you'd like.

-Nightpack Ambusher is way too good compared to pretty much all of your other 4 drops. A 4/4 with flash is already great and better than most of your 4s, but then the fact that it also makes a free 3/3 every turn is just insane. Compare this to something like Vital Splicer which makes a 3/3.... one time. I'd say pick another green 4 for this slot. Since you're trying to run a wildfire deck, it might be worth trying Ripjaw Raptor. I know you probably don't want to add an enrage card to your cube but Raptor is one of the best payoffs for wildfire.

-Harvest Pyre, Scourge Wolf and Gibbering Fiend don't really do their graveyard support jobs as well as I think they could. I'd say use these spots to add to regular aggro decks. A Shock variant, Searing Spear, and Bloodrage Brawler would be a great replacement.

-Increase your density of kill spells in black. You're only running about 7 right now, most of which can't hit a plethora of things. Try at least Cast Down and go from there.

-Cabal Evangel is a good support piece for historic decks, but I think you'd be better serviced by either another aggressive creature or a more versatile card. I don't like Priest of the Blood Rite either as a high-cost black card- it's more of a generic value creature than something aristocrats can specifically use and I think most of it's interactions just fall into "cute" territory.\

-Add more ramp to your green section! I tried drafting ramp, but most of the green cards I saw didn't really help my plan at all. The ramp cards I did see were still in the pack late, but I wasn't able to build as explosive of a start as I'd need for the payoffs I was being handed to be worth it. Start by adding more Llanowar Elves type effects and then move into some Rampant Growth effects. I'd say Farseek is a good include because it synergises so well with your shock-fetch mana base.

-Wavebreak Hippocamp gets way too much credit around these parts in my opinion. The card is not very good unless you can consistently be casting a spell on the opponent's turn. It also fails the Terminate test way harder than most creatures, especially since it dies to enchantment removal. It's fragile, and not the best engine piece in the world. Unlike the similarly costed and stated Laboratory Maniac, the horse fish can't win the game by itself. I'd cut it.

-Speaking of Shock/Fetch, Ramunap Excavator would help green decks by always providing them with a land drop and 2 landfall triggers every turn in conjunction with your fetches. It's not busted without synergy to back it up, so I think it would be a good inclusion for you.

-Serra Angel is a classic but it's also below your power level. Keep it if you want but I think you'd be happier with another Angel.

-Cut some of the high-drops. You're running a lot of random 5 and 6 drops that honestly don't seem that great. It seems like you want to run a synergy-oriented environment, which is good. Some of the big things are good, and even needed. Magus of the Future and friends, however, don't do all that much in my opinion. I'd either use stronger cards in these slots or use more cheap interaction here.

-Bring back Opt!

Conslusion
So yeah, this cube is pretty great. The skeleton of the cube is masterfully done. A lot of the issues I can see are fairly easily addressed and have more to do with swapping out a few cards and swapping in others. So yeah, nice work over all .

-TGT

 

[Alphez]

First of all, wow! Thanks for taking the time to make such an in-depth analysis, I'm super grateful
I'll try to respond to the main topics you brought up, especially in parts 2 and 3.

Spoiler

Despite your generally good calls for design, you take this too far in a number of areas. For example, your green section has Brindle Shoat and Viridian Emissary present. Neither of these cards make sense in any of the archetypes you appear to support in green. The only reason I can see for these even being in the cube is to help with aristocrats deck, and even then neither of these cards really seem to be that good. Green really isn't a great 'crats color to begin with and I don't see what you're gaining by having these cards here. The power level of options for this deck in other colors is way higher than either of these specific cards as well. There are a ton of other examples like this peppered throughout the cube. D'avenant Trapper in White, Harvest Pyre, Scourge Wolf and Gibbering Fiend in red, Loch Dragon in your izzet section, and more.

I agree that green is not the best colour for Aristocrats, but I think it can be a good role-player. It should be possible to build a Prison deck with cards like World Queller, Braids, Cabal Minion and Smokestack, and both Brindle Shoat and Viridian Emissary would be good in there, as they replace themelves with a new permanent. Moreover, they work very well with Wildfire: you'd be happy to have these on the board when you pull the trigger. Then there is Birthing Pod, but anything is good with Pod, so this doesn't really count I can see myself cutting Shoat, but I think Emissary is a very good card, and one that also works well in a ramp deck as a chump blocker that helps you pursue your gameplan. Some of the other cards you mentioned are definitely less defensible, and I could very well cut them.

Spoiler

Because you're using so much space trying to seed specific decks, you're ending up eating space that more generalized decks need to function. You seem to be putting in the general pieces for traditional mono-red and mono-black aggro decks in your cube, but you don't have enough of the enablers for those decks to function. Aggro decks, fundamentally, are all about density of effects. If you want to have a mono-red deck, you need a lot of burn spells and a lot aggressively focused of one or two drops creatures (depending on where you want your aggro curve to start). You only run 4 red 1 drops for aggressive decks, and you're only running 4 burn spells which can hit face. That may seem like a large percentage of your red section, but you need to remember that multiple people will be picking up the "bread and butter" cards regardless of wether or not they're aggressive. Everyone in red is happy to be playing Lighnting Strike. Therefore, if you want to make sure your burn player can get one, you should also be playing Searing Spear and Incinerate (or other similar burn- you could go up or down the mana curve depending upon what you're comfortable with running). I think your black aggro density is closer to correct, but I'd still add another one or two one-drops (more on that later). The goal here isn't to "water down" your archetype strategies so much as it is to use cards that can go into a wider range of decks. I did a couple of test drafts of your list, and I could get some of the pieces for what I was trying to do but then later in the pack get flooded with very narrow cards (especially 5/6 drops) that I couldn't use in my deck.

This derives directly from the fact that, in my previous versions of the Cube, red- (and, to a lesser extent, black- ) based decks were winning very consistently. There's nothing wrong with aggro decks being viable, of course. But it's not great when you nudge your drafters to build around certain archetypes, and the guy who ignores them and goes for raw power ends up winning all the time. I guess that's why I ended up reducing support for these types of decks in my new list. But I agree that it's better to lower the power level of aggro cards, rather than cutting their number. I'll work on this.

Spoiler

In addition, I think your mechanics diet is hurting you just a little bit in some areas. There are a few absolutely fantastic cards that mesh perfectly with your cube that you aren't running for what I can only assume are diet reasons. The two big ones I see missing are Tireless Tracker and Changeling Outcast. Tireless Tracker is probably the single best "Landfall" payoff in green other than Lotus Cobra. In addition to supporting your lands deck, it also meshes with Aristocrats and Artifacts. Meanwhile, Changeling Outcast is great because it's so good at supporting Ninjas and Black Aggro. He can't be blocked, so he can get in damage even when the board gets gummed up. He has relevant tribal synergies as a changeling- he's a Ninja for your Ingenious Infiltrator and a zombie for your, Cryptbreaker. It would help your black decks out a lot to include Changeling Outcast.

Yes, I know that I am missing out on some good cards, but I would rather stick to my guns on the 'keyword diet'. However, I am not sure yet of what is the right amount of keywords to maintain, and it's very possible that I will end up adding one or two (in earlier stages of Cube construction I had more, for example). It has to be worth it, though.

I used to have Tireless Tracker in my old Cube, and it always felt a tad too powerful. My list has 20 fetchlands, after all I really like Investigate as a mechanic, for the same reasons you gave. But even if I were to add this mechanic, I think Tracker would have to stay out for power level reasons.

Changeling Outcast is out of contention due to its keyword, indeed (it's true that Changeling would make some of my other cards better, but all the tribal cards I run are somewhat self-contained. While I do try to take creature types into account when possible, I don't expect tribal decks to be feasible in this Cube). While I agree that an evasive 1-drop in black would be great, I'll have to look elsewhere to find one. The best candidates are Blight Keeper and Tormented Soul, I think. Keeper could help aggro decks deliver the final blow when the opponent stabilises the board (although 8 mana is maybe too much for an aggro deck to realistically produce?). Soul is Outcast sans Changeling, and could very well be the best candidate for the job.

Spoiler

Other than that, it also looks like you've adding some cards just because they have a specific keyword on them and not because they really stand on their own in terms of power level. Scourge Wolf is not great for 3 and 4 color yard decks. Scourge Wolf's means that it's going to be hard to cast, and the payoff of a 2/2 first strike that sometimes has double strike isn't that good. Something like Bloodrage Brawler, by contrast, always has the 4-power body and actively feeds your yard decks instead of being a mediocre payoff. I think your other delirium cards are fine, save for Gibbering Fiend. I think Topplegiest especially is a good use of space since it can go into multiple decks of differing speeds in a way most other cards can't.

Once again, good points.
Having less keywords, I tried to squeeze as many cards as I could out of them - but in some cases, it's just not worth it.

Spoiler

-Nightpack Ambusher is way too good compared to pretty much all of your other 4 drops. A 4/4 with flash is already great and better than most of your 4s, but then the fact that it also makes a free 3/3 every turn is just insane. Compare this to something like Vital Splicer which makes a 3/3.... one time. I'd say pick another green 4 for this slot. Since you're trying to run a wildfire deck, it might be worth trying Ripjaw Raptor. I know you probably don't want to add an enrage card to your cube but Raptor is one of the best payoffs for wildfire.

Yes, Ambusher is probably too strong. I added it because it was the best anchor in green for the Flash deck, and if I cut it I don't have many other options. Which probably means that I should cut the archetype altogether, honestly. This also addresses your comment on Wavebreak Hippocamp
If I cut the Flash deck, I could take yet another page from Modern Horizon's book (man, was that a good limited environment!) and replace it with the 'Creaturefall' theme. It would play extremely well with Blink and Ninjas, giving better cohesion to the macro-archetype. Plus, it's not an actual keyword, so I get a freeroll
I have yet to think this through, but some potential inclusions could be:



In addition to these, I already have Pelt Collector and The Great Henge in my list.
Thoughts on this?

Spoiler

-Increase your density of kill spells in black. You're only running about 7 right now, most of which can't hit a plethora of things. Try at least Cast Down and go from there.

I have 7 kills spells, but in addition to those there are 1 mass removal, 3 creatures that kill stuff upon ETB'ing, Throat Slitter, and Braids, Cabal Minion. It's true, though, that some of these are only appealing to control or ramp decks, since they are quite expensive. I'll try to squeeze in some more general-purpose ones.

Spoiler

-Cabal Evangel is a good support piece for historic decks, but I think you'd be better serviced by either another aggressive creature or a more versatile card. I don't like Priest of the Blood Rite either as a high-cost black card- it's more of a generic value creature than something aristocrats can specifically use and I think most of it's interactions just fall into "cute" territory.\

I added Cabal Paladin because I thought it could give a bit of reach to aggro decks, besides of course seeing play in artifact-based decks. Wishful thinking?
Priest is indeed a generically deece card that happens to get better with a sac outlet. I've also had it in my previous Cube for most of its lifetime, and it has always been a good role player, but I am not particularly attached to it. I can definitely cut it.

Spoiler

-Cut some of the high-drops. You're running a lot of random 5 and 6 drops that honestly don't seem that great. It seems like you want to run a synergy-oriented environment, which is good. Some of the big things are good, and even needed. Magus of the Future and friends, however, don't do all that much in my opinion. I'd either use stronger cards in these slots or use more cheap interaction here.

This is another consequence of me trying to limit the power level of aggro decks. As I said above, I ended up increasing the average mana cost rather than reducing the power level of aggro cards. Not the best plan, I'll fix this.

Wow, again, thank you for the effort you put into this! Appreciate it so much
I will think a bit more on what to change, and report back as soon as I manage!
Meanwhile, if you have opinions about the Flash > Creaturefall swap, I'd be happy to hear them
Cheers!

 

[TrainmasterGT]

First of all, wow! Thanks for taking the time to make such an in-depth analysis, I'm super grateful
I'll try to respond to the main topics you brought up, especially in parts 2 and 3.

Changeling Outcast is out of contention due to its keyword, indeed (it's true that Changeling would make some of my other cards better, but all the tribal cards I run are somewhat self-contained. While I do try to take creature types into account when possible, I don't expect tribal decks to be feasible in this Cube). While I agree that an evasive 1-drop in black would be great, I'll have to look elsewhere to find one. The best candidates are Blight Keeper and Tormented Soul, I think. Keeper could help aggro decks deliver the final blow when the opponent stabilises the board (although 8 mana is maybe too much for an aggro deck to realistically produce?). Soul is Outcast sans Changeling, and could very well be the best candidate for the job.

You're welcome . You have a really cool cube!

I'd definitely include Tormented Soul. The only reason I recommended outcast instead of soul is because it has the relevant creature types which is quite good in the decks that want it. The Tormented Soul effect is something every cube with ninjas wants. I don't think Blight Keeper does enough to be good in most environments. 8 mana is a big ask for aggressive decks- even if that ability isn't supposed to be used often. To put it simply- aggro decks are usually going to have won or lost their game by the time they get their 8th mana. Therefore, the Bat probably isn't going to have it's AA used very often, making it just a Flying Men for black. I think Pilfering Imp and Vampire Bats are both better cards if you're looking for a 1/1 flyer for since they're abilities are usually going to be relevant.

I'd say play Tormented Soul and a 1/1 flyer for , but not specifically Blight Keeper.

Meanwhile, if you have opinions about the Flash > Creaturefall swap, I'd be happy to hear them

Yes, Ambusher is probably too strong. I added it because it was the best anchor in green for the Flash deck, and if I cut it I don't have many other options. Which probably means that I should cut the archetype altogether, honestly. This also addresses your comment on Wavebreak Hippocamp
If I cut the Flash deck, I could take yet another page from Modern Horizon's book (man, was that a good limited environment!) and replace it with the 'Creaturefall' theme. It would play extremely well with Blink and Ninjas, giving better cohesion to the macro-archetype. Plus, it's not an actual keyword, so I get a freeroll
I have yet to think this through, but some potential inclusions could be:



In addition to these, I already have Pelt Collector and The Great Henge in my list.
Thoughts on this?

I don't think flash--->creaturefall is a good idea for a swap. If you want this to specifically be a deck, then you run into the issue of blue not having any payoffs for the deck. The closest thing to a blue payoff I can think of for this deck is... Waterkin Shaman? It seems somewhat pointless to swap a macro-archetype if it means dropping an entire color. Instead, I'd try to play up some of the good aspects of your current section and build the archetype around that.

One thing I'm noticing is a lot of good enters-the-battlefield effects and ways to abuse them. There's a lot of flickering in white, and the Ninjas in U/B let you pick up a thing with a good ETB and play it again. Even Green can recycle dead things by bringing them back with Pulse of Murasa and Genesis. Even though your current section doesn't really work as a dedicated "flash" deck, it works very well as a "etb matters" deck. What I think you should do add a single, specific, non-evergreen mechanic to anchor an ETBs deck into this color combination: Evoke.

There are a ton of great cards with evoke. They all have a sort of modal aspect to them: you can use an Evoke creature either as a Spell or a dude with an ETB ability. The classic example is Mulldrifter's ability to either be a Divination... 0r, well, Mulldrifter. Many of the evoke cards have flash as well, so they can play into the deck your original vision for this color combination was trying to support. For example, Briarhorn is basically a Giant Growth with a creature attached. Some of them even fill some of the "holes" I felt you should address. Shriekmaw, for instance, is a Terror on a stick.

The best part is- none of these cards are "scraping the bottom" of the playability barrel. Almost all of the evoke cards are decent at your power level. I'd say try the following:


The following are also playable, but they're a little bit more niche and kind of depend on whether or not their "spell mode" is something you really need.
.

I know you're probably not jazzed about me suggesting yet another non evergreen mechanic, but I think the evoke route is superior to changing an entire macro-archetype since it plays into the themes your already trying to push. I can pick up my Mulldrifter with my Ninja, blink my Shriekmaw with a Flickerwisp, or just flash in my Briarhorn for value. If you want to get really spicy you could even add Panharmonicon and Yarok, the Desecrated as "ETB doublers." You could even go further and add some elementals matter cards like Risen Reef since all of the evoke dudes are technically elementals.

All of that's just a suggestion, but you know, it could work. It's up to you, really. Hope this helps!
-TGT

 

[Alphez]

I don't think flash--->creaturefall is a good idea for a swap. If you want this to specifically be a deck, then you run into the issue of blue not having any payoffs for the deck. The closest thing to a blue payoff I can think of for this deck is... Waterkin Shaman? It seems somewhat pointless to swap a macro-archetype if it means dropping an entire color. Instead, I'd try to play up some of the good aspects of your current section and build the archetype around that.

One thing I'm noticing is a lot of good enters-the-battlefield effects and ways to abuse them. There's a lot of flickering in white, and the Ninjas in U/B let you pick up a thing with a good ETB and play it again. Even Green can recycle dead things by bringing them back with Pulse of Murasa and Genesis. Even though your current section doesn't really work as a dedicated "flash" deck, it works very well as a "etb matters" deck. What I think you should do add a single, specific, non-evergreen mechanic to anchor an ETBs deck into this color combination: Evoke.

[...]

The best part is- none of these cards are "scraping the bottom" of the playability barrel. Almost all of the evoke cards are decent at your power level.

[...]

I know you're probably not jazzed about me suggesting yet another non evergreen mechanic, but I think the evoke route is superior to changing an entire macro-archetype since it plays into the themes your already trying to push. I can pick up my Mulldrifter with my Ninja, blink my Shriekmaw with a Flickerwisp, or just flash in my Briarhorn for value. If you want to get really spicy you could even add Panharmonicon and Yarok, the Desecrated as "ETB doublers." You could even go further and add some elementals matter cards like Risen Reef since all of the evoke dudes are technically elementals.

The way I see it, this wouldn't mean swapping an entire macro-archetype. In my opening post I defined as 'Tricky aggro', which isn't really the most accurate description possible. There are definitely cards that work well in the multiple themes I tried to push, but it hardly felt like a cohesive theme - and I wasn't super happy with this aspect of the Cube to begin with. I'm a sucker for Flash decks, so I decided to give it a try anyway. But as they say, you have to kill your darlings.

I liked Modern Masters a lot, and the set managed to pull this thing of having multiple colour pairs with a slightly different identity, but working very well together. It had Blink, Ninjas and Creaturefall. Many cards in the set would naturally work well in multiple 2-colour decks, and feel equally at home in many 3-colour decks. I think I wouldn't need to add too many Creaturefall payoffs in order to make this work, as you already want to bounce your own creatures with Ninjas, or Blink them to get multiple ETB effects.

I think some of the cards I mentioned in my previous post aren't bad in their own merits, and become very interesting when you take into account the other themes in . For example, I love the idea of Orc Sureshot in a Ninja deck. Say, you attack with 2 creatures, they block one, you Ninja the other and the Orc messes with the combat math by shrinking the blocker.

Now, don't get me wrong. It is obvious also to me that your suggestion of adding Evoke is great for gameplay. It plays very well with Blink and Ninjas, but also works well with the Aristocrats theme and fills graveyards fast. All of this while adding a bunch of cards that are good in a vacuum, and would easily be picked also by a drafter who isn't looking to build a synergistic deck.

My only real concerns are:
- the fact that Green would remain very marginal in this strategy. The best Evoke creatures seem to be in . I think that, if I'm going to cut the Flash payoffs, I would still need to add some Creaturefall cards in green to tie the colour in.
- the addition of another keyword, which I would rather avoid. The good thing is that Evoke offers a lot of excellent cards, so it wouldn't mean adding a new keyword for just one card or two.

I need to mull(drift) over this for a bit and decide whether the pros outweigh the cons above. In any case, thanks for the sweet idea!

 

[Alphez]

So, I thought about it and decided to add Evoke creatures. The amount of keywords is definitely approaching the higher limit of what I had in mind for this Cube. But I think it still feels like a curated environment, and hopefully one that does not feel too overwhelming for newer players.

This update does a number of things which have been discussed in this thread:

- more generic, high-demand utility cards
- lowered average mana cost
- more cards aimed specifically to aggro decks
- removed the key support cards for UG Flash
- added some Creaturefall cards, that should give more cohesion to the macro-archetype

Which, concretely, means that I cut these:

Spoiler: Cuts

And I added these:

Spoiler: Adds

Funnily, many of the cards I removed were among the most recent additions to my list.

I'm getting to the point where I am quite happy with the list, and will now proceed to buy the stuff I miss to build it IRL.
There are still a few things I am a bit unsure about, mainly:

- I think that, with all the ETB effects that I have added, Restoration Angel might have become too good. The same happened in the previous iteration of my Cube, and I finally ended up cutting it. I might give it the benefit of doubt for now, but I'm watching it closely. If I do cut it, the most likely replacement would be Daring Archaeologist. I am still quite unhappy with the amount of support white offers to the Artifacts macro-archetype, and this could be a step in the right direction.

- Black- and red-based aggro decks used to be top players in my old Cube. I think this latest update raised their power-level by a lot. But it's also true that the general power level of this Cube is definitely higher than my old one, so I expect things to balance themselves out.

- I kinda want to add Mystic Sanctuary and Witch's Cottage. I think they would work well with my 20-fetchland mana base, and they are very good for the graveyard macro-archetype. I'm not a fan of non-mana abilities on lands, but these ones being one-shot and caring about the other lands you have on the battlefield make them quite balanced.

 

[TrainmasterGT]

So, I thought about it and decided to add Evoke creatures. The amount of keywords is definitely approaching the higher limit of what I had in mind for this Cube. But I think it still feels like a curated environment, and hopefully one that does not feel too overwhelming for newer players.

This update does a number of things which have been discussed in this thread:

- more generic, high-demand utility cards
- lowered average mana cost
- more cards aimed specifically to aggro decks
- removed the key support cards for UG Flash
- added some Creaturefall cards, that should give more cohesion to the macro-archetype

- I kinda want to add Mystic Sanctuary and Witch's Cottage. I think they would work well with my 20-fetchland mana base, and they are very good for the graveyard macro-archetype. I'm not a fan of non-mana abilities on lands, but these ones being one-shot and caring about the other lands you have on the battlefield make them quite balanced.

Your list looks a lot more streamlined now- I appreciate that you've taken my suggestions into account .

Mystic Sanctuary and Witch's Cottage are both very powerful magic cards, and I think adding them is correct in a 20-fetch cube at this power level.

Snare Thopter feels like a weird inclusion to me- that card has always felt actively bad in my experiences playing it in limited. What's your reasoning for adding it?

 

[Alphez]

Your list looks a lot more streamlined now- I appreciate that you've taken my suggestions into account .

Mystic Sanctuary and Witch's Cottage are both very powerful magic cards, and I think adding them is correct in a 20-fetch cube at this power level.

Snare Thopter feels like a weird inclusion to me- that card has always felt actively bad in my experiences playing it in limited. What's your reasoning for adding it?

Yeah, I think I'll go ahead and add the 2 lands. But making cuts in the mono-coloured sections is getting increasingly difficult.

Thopter is... a filler, honestly. I wanted to add another artifact creature that could look interesting to aggro decks, without forcing a player into running artifact synergies. It having haste and evasion made it one of the least bad options I could find. But I don't love it, and I believe that it won't be good enough. Good catch :eek: and, well, if you have better ideas, I'm all ears!

 

[TrainmasterGT]

Yeah, I think I'll go ahead and add the 2 lands. But making cuts in the mono-coloured sections is getting increasingly difficult.

Thopter is... a filler, honestly. I wanted to add another artifact creature that could look interesting to aggro decks, without forcing a player into running artifact synergies. It having haste and evasion made it one of the least bad options I could find. But I don't love it, and I believe that it won't be good enough. Good catch :eek: and, well, if you have better ideas, I'm all ears!

Sure!

Bonesplitter and Heirloom Blade are great aggro equipments. They're the sort of cards every aggro deck wants to be playing, sometimes even over a creature or burn spell if their draft went well enough.

As for creatures, you've already got most of the best options, but there are a couple of decent cards you could toss in and have some more success with:

-Chronomaton is good because it just sits in play and grows until it's of the proper size for attacking.

-Heap Doll works as graveyard hate and a random 1/1 body.

-Crashing Drawbridge is surprisingly good in aggro because it can give haste to things you just played.

-Metallic Mimic is good with your tribal synergies.

-Watchers of the Dead is a Grizzly Bears with stapled on graveyard hate.

Hopefully one of those can work for you.

 

[Alphez]

Thanks!

I think I'll give Watchers of the Dead a try. It's not the most exciting card ever, but it can do a number of useful things in my list. I think it could see play!

Crashing Drawbridge also seems cool, it could see play in both aggro and control. I'll keep this one in mind, too

 

[Kirblinx]

I've always been a fan of:

In the penny pincher cube. If you were after a decent aggressive colourless creature then it has your back. Has some funky gameplay to it as well. Does the opponent not block in the hope that it won't untap for a while?
Do you kill a creature at instant speed to untap it to surprise block?
I like Trainmasters suggestions, I just suggested it as I have played it many times and it was at the same CMC and the Snare Thopter.

 

[Alphez]

I've always been a fan of:

In the penny pincher cube. If you were after a decent aggressive colourless creature then it has your back. Has some funky gameplay to it as well. Does the opponent not block in the hope that it won't untap for a while?
Do you kill a creature at instant speed to untap it to surprise block?
I like Trainmasters suggestions, I just suggested it as I have played it many times and it was at the same CMC and the Snare Thopter.

Thanks, that's an interesting card indeed!
It could also work well with the sac outlets I run due to Aristocrats/Prison, and now the Evoke creatures.

 

[Nanonox]

What stood out drafting your cube was the 3 CC mana rocks (especially when seen next to green 1CC mana elves) and Sundering Shaman with the GGRR mana cost. The latter seems hard to cast on curve for a mediocre effect and the former seem slow compared to the speed of your cube. The mono blue deck I drafted would love for the opponent to do nothing on turn 3!

 

[Alphez]

What stood out drafting your cube was the 3 CC mana rocks (especially when seen next to green 1CC mana elves) and Sundering Shaman with the GGRR mana cost. The latter seems hard to cast on curve for a mediocre effect and the former seem slow compared to the speed of your cube. The mono blue deck I drafted would love for the opponent to do nothing on turn 3!

Hmmm, good points.

Sundering Shaman is mostly meant to be a plant for Wildfire decks, since it can be played early and survive the board wipe. I like it being multicolour, as you can generally afford to prioritise ramp and removal, and pick up your fatty later. I think Wildfire decks need this type of support in order to come together. The quad-specific mana cost could be an issue, indeed. But I would like to see if Shaman can do its intended job before I cut it.

Mana rocks at 3 cmc may be a tad too slow, that's true. The thing is, I would like to have some mana fixing/acceleration available to all colours, but it shouldn't be as good as the options available in Green. I think that doing otherwise would remove too much from Green's identity. Also considering that my list has a pretty strong emphasis on artifacts interaction, I want to make sure that there's no clear best option.

Thanks for pointing these things out, I'll keep an eye on them to see if they work the way I intended or if I should adjust power levels

 

[Alphez]

A tiny update after some more goldfishing, mainly intended to address the following:

- I realised that my support of artifact decks was quite... heavy handed. Artifacts/colourless cards basically amounted to a 6th colour. By this I mean that, in the average booster, you would find the same amount of colourless cards and, say, blue cards. That felt a bit too much, so I trimmed 5 slots and redistributed them among the 5 colours.

- I was quite unhappy with my selection of gold cards. Kird Ape didn't really play in any of my supported archetypes, and Sundering Shaman had some issues that Nanonox also highlighted. In goldfishing I realised that Wildfire decks are perfectly capable of coming together and have enough decent X/5's, to the point that I found myself not running Shaman even when I could. So it basically became pointless to keep it. I replaced the 2 cards with Sarkhan Vol and Gallia of the Endless Dance. Sarkhan is a bit of a pet card, I think it is a good addition to Sacrifice decks (which tend to be quite midrangey when they run green, so the steal-and-sac trick can actually matter) and a decent curve-topper for aggro decks. Gallia is a bit of an experiment. Red has a lot of token-producers, so I figured it shouldn't be too difficult to trigger the rummaging ability. This in turn helps fill graveyards, which are an important resource in my list. I think Sarkhan and Gallia could also be good tools to enable a Fires deck, together with Thopter Engineer, Hammer of Purphoros and the multiple haste creatures in red. I'm a bit bothered by Gallia's "trinket text" about other Satyrs, but I couldn't really find many better options for this slot.

- I decided to listen to Trainmaster and add Changelings to my list. I believe the Cube still feels quite coherent, and Changeling is a fairly simple mechanic: I think I can tolerate the addition of another keyword. I also went ahead and added Metallic Mimic and Adaptive Automaton. I don't expect that these will consistently enable tribal decks, but they might give some extra depth to the few "creature-type matters" cards that I run. I think I've run narrower cards in the past so I can live with them not being top performers all the time.

TL;DR:

I cut these:

Spoiler: OUT

...and added these:

Spoiler: IN

 

[Alphez]

Hey everyone!

I haven't posted in a while, so I thought it would be nice to document the changes I made in these past few months.
These have been entirely theoretical, based solely on my own goldfishing, for obvious reasons. So I'd love to have other users' perspectives, which so often helped me improve my list.
The basic principles I am trying to follow are still the ones mentioned in the opening post, so broad archetypes, 'keyword diet', yadda yadda.
Here's the full list on CubeCobra, for reference.


The rise and fall of tribes
At the time of my last post, I had just added Changelings. Subsequently, I added some light tribal rewards and tweaked some other card choices to make them more viable. However, after a while, I decided to scrap the idea and (mostly) revert to the previous iteration, without Changelings and tribal cards. I think my power level is a bit too high for tribal decks to really shine, unless I push them with very strong rewards - and if I do, it feels like drafting on rails, which is something I dislike very much. Especially in Black, I hated that drafting an aggro deck invariably meant drafting Zombies. I thought it would get boring pretty soon.


Even less keywords
I went on and cut a couple keywords that were featured on very few cards (Landfall and Delirium, appearing on 4 cards each, IIRC). As you know, I try to use as few keywords as possible, and these two didn't seem to be adding enough in my opinion. I could revisit Landfall now that Zendikar Rising gave us more options, but I haven't really felt the need to. I don't find Landfall to be a super interesting ability, and having 20 fetchlands in my list means that balancing could be tricky. Plus, let's be honest: it's already miserable enough to face ramp decks and Landfall triggers in every possible Constructed format. At least here that I have agency, I'd rather avoid them.


Rocks & lands
Another big change I made (following Nanonox's advice) was to cut all the 3 CMC mana rocks for a bunch of Talismans. My reasoning for using the 3 CMC ones was that I wanted Green to be the most efficient option for ramping, but I came to realise that powering down the alternatives was simply unnecessary. Green is more efficient anyway, and uses tools (mana dorks, land searching) which are different and often more versatile than rocks. Cheaper mana rocks are interesting for multiple strategies beyond artifact-heavy decks, which creates some positive tension. As having a mana rock would not be super useful in all colour pairs, I decided to introduce Horizon Canopy lands instead for the most aggro-focused pairs. Both the Talismans and the Canopies are good enough that people could be interested in picking them even if they don't play that exact colour pair, which is something I like. So far, I have been happy with my decision.




Make White interesting again
White is having a bit of an identity crisis - or rather a facelift, I hope. Most of the 'lands matter' cards are gone, as I found them to be either too strong or not interesting enough. It still has, however, some of the best cards to ramp into, as well as Knight of the Reliquary. That should be enough to make White a decent role-player in ramp decks.
The colour picked up a stronger focus on artifact aggro, with cards like Stone Haven Pilgrim (I haven't had an opportunity to see it in play yet, but I love it on paper). I also put Stoneforge Mystic back, with a light Equipment package: the idea here isn't to have it become a build-around, but rather to use it as a complement to aggro strategies (Artifacts, but also Ninjas, or generic aggro builds that could use the extra buff). I think a dedicated drafter could pick up a couple Equipments on average, and I'm fine with that.
White is also very good for Stax decks, with cards like Cataclysmic Gearhulk, World Queller, and Martyr's Bond.




Pitching to Force, because why not
I decided to try out some +1/+1 counters payoff cards, as they are decent on their own and synergise with multiple other cards which I would run anyway. This is not supposed to be a big theme, but I'm sure it could spark some cute synergies and the occasional focused deck. Hagra Constrictor is probably on the weak side of things, but I liked its gameplay in retail draft. It feels like a poor man's Champion of Lambholt in Black, and I'm willing to give it a chance.
This is mostly rooted in , but and have some tie-ins as well.




Less mythics, more fun
The final, major change I made was to cut about 33% of the mythics in my list. Even in higher-powered Cubes, I think mythics are responsible for the most miserable games. We're seeing this in most Constructed formats as well, since WotC gave up any form of self-control with regard to their power level. Again, since I have agency here, I'd rather avoid making my format as unfun as the official ones currently are. Now I am down to 20 mythics, and many of the ones I run are important pieces for my archetypes. I could see trimming some more of them, but for now I think I am satisfied.
I also made some other power-level adjustments, phasing out cards both on the higher and lower extremes of the power band.


What do you guys think? As usual, if you have thoughts you want to share, I am happy to discuss.
Cheers!

 

[Nemo]

I tried drafting your cube a few times, and the lack of keywords didn't feel at all limiting.

My last one produced a pretty strong deck, starting with a first pick Spell Queller. I was initially thinking control deck with counter magic. Then I saw a ton of small evasive creatures and ninjas, so I went away from control and into aggro-control. I was thinking your cube has a crazy amount of little fliers, but it appears that I simply saw all of the blue ones and most of the white ones. I think it might be capable of boarding into a more traditional UW control build, which would be a fun thing to do.

In my second draft, I tried forcing the lands deck after picking Ramunap Excavator P1P1. That turned into a sort of blink/stax thing that didn't get as much lands matter stuff as I was initially planning. The draft bots pick lands higher than I do, too, so that also hampered my lands plan. But it was fun to bumble my way into a plausible looking UW Stax-ish deck. Maybe the ETB/blink card advantage is the more important feature of that deck. The blink seems pretty strong in this cube, but I guess it's a high powered environment that can probably handle that.

My first deck got a little messy, as I grabbed a Tinker first and didn't catch the rest of the artifact related stuff I was hoping for in the first pack. Tinker was probably a poor choice on my part. I ended up ditching Tinker and going with a flying aggro pile with some equipment. Didn't turn out terrible considering the change of plans.

I'll try drafting this again sometime now that I have a bit of a feel for the cube. The keyword diet makes me pretty interested in this cube. I don't have any brilliant feedback right now, but my archetypes morphed into something unexpected in each of the drafts I tried. I had pieces that could go in multiple directions, which seems good. I looked at your archetypes and gave the list only a cursory skim before trying the draft, and I didn't feel lost. Also a good sign. I'll try some more at a later time, and maybe then I'll have some specific thoughts on a few cards.