Card/Deck Prison in Cube
- Thread starter Grillo_Parlante
- Start date
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Re: Mindslaver and recursion options. Remind me why taking no turns while your opponent is finishing you is fun again?
Smokestack and black Braids on the other hand are awesome! Love the little value plays. One of my most memorable games was eking out a win against Welder + Smokestack by patiently removing every other threat and sandbagging lands. Of course that was after I lost the first game in spectacular fashion to the same two cards!
Smokestack and black Braids on the other hand are awesome! Love the little value plays. One of my most memorable games was eking out a win against Welder + Smokestack by patiently removing every other threat and sandbagging lands. Of course that was after I lost the first game in spectacular fashion to the same two cards!
Rave hit the nail on the head with Braids, Cabal Minion. You don't need a dedicated deck, but you are rewarded if you have outlets that you can feed her. And if you aren't powering her out on T1, she is not oppressive. Really, if on turn 4 you can't deal with a 2/2 creature, you sort of deserve to have all your stuff sac'd.
She is particularly great though in a Stax type of deck. Bitterblossom tokens to feed her. I really love Geralf's Messenger, but the mana cost is very prohibitive so I understand if guys do not want to run that. It's a vicious card though. Any recurring threat obviously. Bloodghast, Gravecrawler, etc. Black has a million and one ways to get additional value out of her.
Trading post is just a good card. It looks innocuous, but having all those abilities on it means it's an answer to a whole bunch of things. Every mode is useful. I've seen guys toss Squee to it and gain life to power up Pridemate's (or just to stay alive). I've seen goat tokens created to feed sac engines (that is basically a poor man's bitterblossom effect). Sacing creatures to get artifacts back sounds narrow, but just the other day I had an engine going with Perilous Myr and Tidehollow Sculler. Killing dudes and permanently removing cards from hands. I can't recommend that card enough, though it is a little slow and super fast environments may not be able to afford to play a 4 drop that does nothing the turn it comes down. Lower powered and slower environments though, this thing is sweet.
Welder is a card I keep trying to break but he's inconsistent. He dies to everything. But he has a ton of potential. He may be best in a faster shell where he's not the only threat that needs to be removed (which can keep him alive longer). And then you can do mean things like recycle Tangle Wire. Reanimator support is where I keep trying to put him but again, he's not the best guy in that simply because he dies almost every time before the engine can really come online. So I don't know. Try him and see if you like him. He's a 1 drop, so I don't feel bad when he auto-dies. That's one less removal spell for my more expensive dudes.
She is particularly great though in a Stax type of deck. Bitterblossom tokens to feed her. I really love Geralf's Messenger, but the mana cost is very prohibitive so I understand if guys do not want to run that. It's a vicious card though. Any recurring threat obviously. Bloodghast, Gravecrawler, etc. Black has a million and one ways to get additional value out of her.
Trading post is just a good card. It looks innocuous, but having all those abilities on it means it's an answer to a whole bunch of things. Every mode is useful. I've seen guys toss Squee to it and gain life to power up Pridemate's (or just to stay alive). I've seen goat tokens created to feed sac engines (that is basically a poor man's bitterblossom effect). Sacing creatures to get artifacts back sounds narrow, but just the other day I had an engine going with Perilous Myr and Tidehollow Sculler. Killing dudes and permanently removing cards from hands. I can't recommend that card enough, though it is a little slow and super fast environments may not be able to afford to play a 4 drop that does nothing the turn it comes down. Lower powered and slower environments though, this thing is sweet.
Welder is a card I keep trying to break but he's inconsistent. He dies to everything. But he has a ton of potential. He may be best in a faster shell where he's not the only threat that needs to be removed (which can keep him alive longer). And then you can do mean things like recycle Tangle Wire. Reanimator support is where I keep trying to put him but again, he's not the best guy in that simply because he dies almost every time before the engine can really come online. So I don't know. Try him and see if you like him. He's a 1 drop, so I don't feel bad when he auto-dies. That's one less removal spell for my more expensive dudes.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I think the mindslaver lock is a bit like a braids lock, in the sense that they are both clunky and should be disruptable. However getting a couple value mindslaver uses seems fun.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
A 2/2 is a lot easier to deal with than an artifact and a land (for example) though. To be fair, Mindslaver is a lot more expensive to really be busted.
Mindslaver in my group was a serious no-go. The first time someone took over the other players turn and doom bladed one of their dudes and suicided the other in combat, guys called for a ban pretty much immediately.
The problem is it's an artifact and without something to destroy it, you can't stop the inevitable turn where your opponent kills you with your own stuff. The only card that got more venom thrown at it was Bribery. But my cube is slower and there are a lot of durdle wars, so YMMV. If there was a mindslaver on a stick, I might consider it because the effect is sweet.
On second though, no. I don't think I would. My friend had a reanimator deck and he ran Mindleech Mass. And if it lived to take a swing, that was pretty much an auto-scoop (and that effect is nowhere near as good as Mindslaver).
The problem is it's an artifact and without something to destroy it, you can't stop the inevitable turn where your opponent kills you with your own stuff. The only card that got more venom thrown at it was Bribery. But my cube is slower and there are a lot of durdle wars, so YMMV. If there was a mindslaver on a stick, I might consider it because the effect is sweet.
On second though, no. I don't think I would. My friend had a reanimator deck and he ran Mindleech Mass. And if it lived to take a swing, that was pretty much an auto-scoop (and that effect is nowhere near as good as Mindslaver).
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I <3 Mindleech Mass though. Card is fun 
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Oh come now, they are only opposed to it because its an anti-durdle card
10 mana for an exchange like that seems pretty bad tbh, especially if you guys were playing multi-player.
CML
Contributor
it's way too strong for any of our environments. even the much worse glare of subdual is like the only multicolored card i've "banned"
Mindslaver is very slow, unless you welder or tinker it out. But slow playing it is when it does more damage, especially in a durdle environment. A guy holding 6 cards in his hand with an army built up for an alpha strike after 7 turns of nothing loses the game almost immediately when this goes off. In horrible fashion. And while I think that's perfectly fair, others did not and I was overruled.
Mindleech Mass is evil. I remember thinking it was the scariest thing in my friend's reanimator deck. Taking a hasty 6 to the face from Akroma was preferable to that card every day of the week and twice on Sunday, especially if I was playing a deck with bombs.
Mindleech Mass is evil. I remember thinking it was the scariest thing in my friend's reanimator deck. Taking a hasty 6 to the face from Akroma was preferable to that card every day of the week and twice on Sunday, especially if I was playing a deck with bombs.
Glare of Subdual is really really powerful. I agree with CML. If you have a billion token makers in your cube, I would be very leery of running it. That thing can shut down combat like nobody's business.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
How about a R/G mana denial deck with wildfire as its core?
More of a tempo-prison shell than a true lock. Seems like it would have sweet overlap with the artifact theme everyone is going to be running, as well as with life from the loam and the new seismic assault card.
Archangel of tithes survives wildfire. I'm also mildly obsessed with the idea of a white splash for blink effects, blinking invader parasite, Avalanche Riders, den protector, and eternal witness (to get back more land destruction).
As long as the format isn't so condensed where a little mana harassment ends the game, it feels like a reasonable prison strategy, and in a color combination thats normally boring as well.
More of a tempo-prison shell than a true lock. Seems like it would have sweet overlap with the artifact theme everyone is going to be running, as well as with life from the loam and the new seismic assault card.
Archangel of tithes survives wildfire. I'm also mildly obsessed with the idea of a white splash for blink effects, blinking invader parasite, Avalanche Riders, den protector, and eternal witness (to get back more land destruction).
As long as the format isn't so condensed where a little mana harassment ends the game, it feels like a reasonable prison strategy, and in a color combination thats normally boring as well.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Yeah, those cards are going to be game breaking in a more tempo format; you only would want to play them in slower formats where the tempo loss isn't crippling. I think that may go for pillage as well, though not to the same degree.
You could run multiple copies of primal command, if you are on the fence, but I remember that card being a source of controversy as well, with it being unplayable in some formats, and the best card in other peoples.
No comments on holistic wisdom or icefall? I thought those would drum up a response.
You could run multiple copies of primal command, if you are on the fence, but I remember that card being a source of controversy as well, with it being unplayable in some formats, and the best card in other peoples.
No comments on holistic wisdom or icefall? I thought those would drum up a response.
I used to run a lot of these cards. What are people's experiences with these old faves
Land destruction in green is too cruel. I cut it all, and I like broken bullshit, so I feel that's really saying something. It broke my heart a bit to do it, as finding a Stunted Growth in a bulk bin one day was a big happy inspiration moment for me. Alas, it's simply game-ending most of the time or do nothing the rest, in a bad way. Being behind and hoping to draw a bomb is part of what keeps the game's tension and playability there; cards like Stunted and Plow ruin that hope and cut the tension for virtually no cost or work to the caster, which makes the victory hollow, too. I shy away from Acid-Moss for similar reasons; T3 moss can also be super oppressive. Doing it in Red with Wildfire isn't anywhere near comparable; it does something that requires some work and planning, so I'm usually just impressed when it happens and not too upset over it.
Icefall doesn't make sense to me anywhere, frankly. If your format is so slow and low-powered that you can keep recasting a 4-mana single-land-destro spell that requires 2 more mana and a body in the yard from the field to recur, I can't imagine that spell would do much until you'd casted it at least 4 times, which means 22 mana not counting the dead creatures, to just maybe start strangling their resources. And that's assuming they aren't drawing into lands.
Holistic Wisdom just seems boring imo. I'd rather be durdle-flickering or durdle-recurring Eternal Witness with Venser or Oversold Cemetery + Carrion Feeder if drawing from my yard for a bunch of mana is important. Wisdom seems extremely situational.
Dom Harvey
Contributor
I LOVE Holistic Wisdom but making it work in Cube seems super tricky with any reasonable distribution of card types.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Holistic Wisdom also has a tendency to lead to repetetive game states. That's not a problem in constructed, but I don't think it's desirable in limited.
I used to run a lot of these cards. What are people's experiences with these old faves
That I had a lot more fun casting Primal Command.
This is backtracking/offtopic a bit, but does anyone run in their cubes? She seems legit if you have the discard outlets and artifatties to support her, plus unlike Sphinxkroma she doesn't have pro-colors.
EDIT: To make this post about Prison, imagine she's bringing back Trading Post, which is basically Forcefield + Sac Fodder + Lifegain + whatever you want for a prison deck.
in their cubes? She seems legit if you have the discard outlets and artifatties to support her, plus unlike Sphinxkroma she doesn't have pro-colors.EDIT: To make this post about Prison, imagine she's bringing back Trading Post, which is basically Forcefield + Sac Fodder + Lifegain + whatever you want for a prison deck.
This is backtracking/offtopic a bit, but does anyone run
EDIT: To make this post about Prison, imagine she's bringing back Trading Post, which is basically Forcefield + Sac Fodder + Lifegain + whatever you want for a prison deck.
I would love to play Sharuum. Maybe one day I will, probably the same time I work out how to make Trading Post work. I run a very artifact light cube at the moment.
I haven't played her ouside of EDH (and then only against a POS opponent) but outside of some really particular environments i don't know that a tricolour six-mana creature that's sometimes just a 5/5 flyer is gonna cut it. I'm definitely going to try her in the powered 180 skeleton i'm working on though, she might be interesting in that sort of environment. Welding her onto the battlefield sure sounds fun, and so does Scrap Mastery.This is backtracking/offtopic a bit, but does anyone run
EDIT: To make this post about Prison, imagine she's bringing back Trading Post, which is basically Forcefield + Sac Fodder + Lifegain + whatever you want for a prison deck.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I really like recover. Its good durdles. I don't think its really a power level issue as a format speed issue. I sometimes miss the old durdle days where aeon chronicler was good in cube. Than I snap back to reality.
Anways, how do we draw lines with LD effects?
Avalanche riders are pretty popular, is that because of the 2/2 body that helps make up for the tempo loss of casting them at 4?
The flexibility of the card dosen't seem to matter at 4 (creeping mold is still pretty bad), but may matter at 3 with pillage vs. stone rain.
Is 3 mana unconditional land destruction too stronk and what makes LD playable at 4?
IMO, Avalanche Riders is good because it serves as both a curve topper for aggro (slowing midrange/control and still bashing for two) and because it is abusable being stapled to a body. Alesha, blink effects, lark… all want to abuse this card. It also has echo, so it self bins which can sometimes be relevant. Avalanche Riders is one of my favorite red cards because it represents the color so well for me.
Mwonvuli Acid-moss is a beating too. I'll defend that card to my dying breath. Ramp is a fan and aggro land fall decks can use it too (if they can handle the GG cost). The rest of those I really don't think are great. Pillage is cool if you have a heavy artifact theme, but since dumping swords (et all), I have found artifact hate to be a lot less necessary. On a related note, cards like Manic Vandal and such were great value plays in my old power cube. In my new one, they just suck though. I've cut almost all of them at this point. Only the ones that hit both enchantments and artifacts are still around (and even those I'm culling down in number).
Mwonvuli Acid-moss is a beating too. I'll defend that card to my dying breath. Ramp is a fan and aggro land fall decks can use it too (if they can handle the GG cost). The rest of those I really don't think are great. Pillage is cool if you have a heavy artifact theme, but since dumping swords (et all), I have found artifact hate to be a lot less necessary. On a related note, cards like Manic Vandal and such were great value plays in my old power cube. In my new one, they just suck though. I've cut almost all of them at this point. Only the ones that hit both enchantments and artifacts are still around (and even those I'm culling down in number).
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Is part of what makes acid-moss good the fact that you can ramp it out turn 3 with an elf? I find it so interesting that it has such a following, while other 4cc LD is basically unplayable.
Might 3 mana LD be too good if you are making the same play?
Might 3 mana LD be too good if you are making the same play?