Card/Deck she wants the d(iscard suite)

I don't know if any of you guys were hoping BFZ would give us something kind of like Inquisition of Kozilek - cheap, powerful discard that only hits some cards - but instead we get something that costs two mana and really wants to cost one. It's almost as recurrent a theme as 'gold medieval set'!

Discard 'needs' to be one mana because you're trading evenly on cards and can't afford to spend a ton of resources just to deny your opponent an option they might not even have used. It also needs to be one mana because it's more fun and interesting there. I personally like Inquisition of Kozilek to push my CMC3 theme but Thoughtseize is still a great card that people should run, in multiples if they want to. I'm not huge on it hitting everything (I really like the times you IOK, see Elspeth, and know you have to race this waiting threat, or Despise and start playing around Mana Leak) but it's a necessary alternative to other selective discard, which is really bad to play or include in your Cube.

Here's our options:

{B}


{1}{B} (some people have had a lot of success sharpie-ing these to cost {B} instead. they're not really that great at two mana unforch)

(the currently-missing card is the new Transgress the Mind. strongarm tactics needs a heavy graveyard theme for black but might, given one and a mana-cost haircut, really be SOME PIG)

at higher costs there starts to be enough support for a real discard suite, but unfortunately it all costs too much to be solid in faster cubes. At least, I've usually thought so? I've been playing Persecute in my Modern sideboard though (<3 grillo, thx for the tip) and I've done some really absurd things with it* - and Modern is by no means a slow format! I haven't played all of these but I've played most of them, it's just a matter of picking and choosing a couple at different points in your environment i think. lower-costed discard can bide time until you drop your 'big guns' in a faster format? maybe add more cantrips and creature cantrips if you want a higher discard presence.
*"that's a card? wow, okay, dude" (discards six green cards and is left holding a RTR Dispel)

here's a list across a couple power levels:

now obviously most of these suck, especially the five-mana ones. (do they, though???)
Have you tried any custom alternatives, like {B} Addle or a Blackmail-style Cabal Therapy that says 'name a colour'? (this was 'too good' here but that may have just been whining. Thoughtseize also got whines.)

Am I just wrong for not wanting to give my players Thoughtseize? I like that four-drops are 'immune' to some forms of disruption in my environment but it's the least frustrating of the discard spells for the caster, especially in a Cube context. (the number of nominally-spell creatures and nominally-creature spells we run makes Duress and Despise situationally worse imo)
Is 3x {B} discard spells 'enough' for most people in a 360? How big of a part of black's colour pie do we want this to be? I think it's been underserved in Cube before but don't want to over-correct and throw things outta whack.

I like being able to apply pressure across all zones and make any of them matter in different ways throughout games, inspired by playing a buncha Netrunner recently. So elegant! Persecute hasn't shown up here yet but i think it's only a matter of time before I draft it and try to show people what I mean it to do. (RBM you draft more often than I do, have you drafted it yet? how was it?)
How have you made discard matter in your own Cube? This is another one of those areas where I think a lot of people have tried a lot of different things, but a discussion might be fruitful.
 
I actually run Blackmail. It consistently outperforms or at least competes with Thoughtseize and friends. If they have 0-3 cards, its better than any of its kin, at 4-5 cards its usually at least as good as Duress, sometimes straight up better than its kin because of its ability to take lands and the difficult decision it presents them with. At 6-7 cards in their hand, it gets a little iffy but because the card quality is relatively flat, it has still taken a relevant card every single time. Nobody has 3 duds to reveal. We have yet to have a single resolution of this card feel worse than resolving any of its kin. Until then, its nowhere near the cutting board over here.
 

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
Blackmail is definitely better then I thought it would be. If you are looking to get rid of a specific card that will completely dumps on your deck, you would rather thoughtseize, but hitting land and not costing life are both relevant upsides.
 
Thank you for starting this thread! I've felt similarly, safra; Thoughtseize is a clear beating and pressures out other discard options without being necessarily more "fun" or "necessary". I love restricted removal effects, and my players are generally pleased to run them. I also find Thoughtseize a bit ruthlessly feel-bad for its capacity to ruin a shaky 7 and win a game essentially T1. I may be being a bit too mean about it, but for me, philosophically, it's worth considering cutting it to free up the space for other discard options.

If the world were fair, I'd probably run 1x Blackmail, 2x Inquisition of Kozilek and 2x Cabal Therapy, while scaling back creature removal a notch. However, I find it very hard to commit to that nasty price tag on 1-mana discard spells, and I worry about the impact it might have on my format to be so blunt about it. As a point of compromise, I've been thinking of adjusting to a 2x/1x Cabal Therapy, 1x/2x Blackmail package to see how that feels for starters, and it may very likely be a plunge I take after BFZ spoiler season comes to a close tomorrow and I revisit my list more seriously. I am constantly tinkering with my cube power level lately, and more discard will shine in my emerging environ. I really love how discard effects can help shore up the power differential of an all-in aggressive deck when facing down a full-grip midrange or control deck, which is a meta relationship that I think is relatively unexplored in traditional cube philosophy due to its lack of competitiveness in powermax lists.

For my discard suite as it stands, I currently run Thoughtseize, Cabal Therapy, Hymn to Tourach, Gerrard's Verdict, Liliana, Heretical Healer, and Sire of Insanity (technically also Balance and Reforge the Soul, but those are rarely used for their discard purposes). My primary draft partner suggests cutting Hymn from time to time since it can be so swingy, but we're all in love with Verdict, new Lily, and Sire. I had a nasty deck last week that was able to T2 Sire off of Reanimate, but it's always a barrel of laughs to make that race happen at any point in the curve (we're pretty good-natured about that kind of bullshit though). I highly recommend Sire, and personally, I think top-end multicolour cards are a great way to give good finishers to colours that lack more sixes that are actually fun/exciting to run (see: red and black), because splashing for them is usually no trouble, given our swell manabases.

Re: Persecute - I'm actually adding it to my testing bay soon, but I'll be sure to report back on results as soon as I've had a chance to run it! I'm optimistic of it being good where I want it to be (vs midrange/control), but we'll see.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Giant like for trolling people in modern with persecute.

One of the issues with thoughtseize, is that there are two reasons to run it:

1. You want a piece of ubiquitous action to disrupt a combo deck. Good!
2. You are a spike and want to win tournaments by generating a certain percentage of auto wins by preying on magic's natural variance. Bad!

The faster your format becomes though, and the more it places a premium on spell sequencing, the cheaper your interaction is pressured to become. I'm not sure what the solution is, though I think 3 mana is probably a pretty good point: the two lils, and command being the best examples.

At 1-2 mana you have to worry about discard crippling development to the point it creates non-games, and as a result, those cards have to be conditioned in some way where they still feel impactful yet fair. Another question is how much cube-space you want to devote to creating a density of early game interaction via a bunch of similar feeling 1 mana cards, and whether this will be a net positive.

There are a few catagories here to consider, when pondering what types of decks we ultimately want to encourage:

1. Attrition based discard: augur of skulls, lil, command. These decks are looking to use discard as a card advantage generating engine. Typically this is discard that dosen't target, and is either repeated in nature, or gets 2 cards.
2. Targeted Discard: cheap interaction, designed to disrupt combos and abuse negative variance. Thoughtseize, IOK, mesmeric fiend, duress.
3. Mass Discard: Big effects designed to "wrath the hand." Mindtwist, persecute. this is more expensive discard that can get 3+ cards at one time, and resolving one of these spells can become a strategy in itself.
 
I like the 1 mana targeted discard effects. Haven't tried Blackmail, but I might. Looks like it has a lot of play to it. I run Thoughtseize, Duress and Inquisition. All three are good and I find the 2 life loss on Thoughtseize can be relevant, so it doesn't always feel superior to the other two. I also run the targeted removal on a stick variety (currently just Tidehollow Sculler), though I'd run more if there were good ones that synergized with what I have black focused on.

Mass discard is feel bad (Persecute? Seriously?? Like I need more reasons to push 3+ color decks.). Don't even get me started on Mind Twist. I don't see the appeal at all with these cards since they either don't do much or they prevent your opponent from playing Magic. Neither scenario is desirable in my eyes.

Even the 2 for 1 variety is either bad (non-targeted which doesn't usually do enough) or just too brutal (Hymn to Tourach is ridiculous). However, I do like the single random discard effects that are disruptable and/or slow (Hippie and Black Cat ).
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
That surprises me a bit; thats very different from when we play multiplayer (though we always do free-for-all when we play multiplayer).

One thing that I forgot to mention, is that one of the advantages of having discard (in particular persecute and nightmare void for us) is that it provides another condensing affect on the format, pressuring people to play sleeker, lower to the ground decks, that can sequence out spells better.
 
Targetted removal plays differently in multi-player than 1v1. It's held longer until a player is identified who posses the biggest threat, and then it gets played (typically to remove wrath effects or bombs). The sense I get is people feel like it gives them some measure of control (less in reality IMO, but that's another discussion entirely), while being very fair since it's always 1 for 1.

Cards like Hippie and Black Cat instill fear into people because the mind immediately goes WCS when it sees "random" attached to "discard". You immediately assume it is going to take the most important card to you and so you go out of your way to deal with the threat. I love these cards for that reason. Neither is overpowered at all, but they always elicit a response and impact gameplay decisions. I'd probably run more of these if they existed and were good.

I'd need for force Nightmare Void on my group and it would likely end in a revolt from at least one player. Back in Ravnica block, someone made a deck featuring that card and it was so feel bad that we banned it completely. As the power level in cube is so much higher than what we were doing in Ravnica, I doubt Nightmare Void would have the same kind of impact. But there's no way I'm fighting that perception to run a card whose effect I don't even like. I'm good.
 
I mean, path to exile giving your opponent a land is a draw back sometimes but really it's still more or less uncondicial removal for one mana. Thoughtseize hurts but it still can win you the game turn one.
 
I mean, path to exile giving your opponent a land is a draw back sometimes but really it's still more or less uncondicial removal for one mana. Thoughtseize hurts but it still can win you the game turn one.


Thoughseize hurts combo decks or weak decks with silver bullet answers. If you have a well designed deck, I don't see how this loses you the game on T1. It can't mana hose you. All it can do is take a juicy card in your hand away (which certainly blows), but they lose a card and 2 life doing it so it seems OK to me. It certainly is a good play, especially if you are a slower deck buying time. As an aggressive deck, I don't generally want to see this card played against me. But at the same time, I don't typically make simple decks so my opponent doesn't always know which card truly represents the biggest threat to him.

Path to Exile is a great card that does just a little too much for the cost. Condemn is the version I run and where I feel things are better balanced. That's just me though. Path is not StP silly as the drawback is definitely severe against some decks.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
lol...its possible that your group might be better at multi-player than mine. They would usually just shoot off the discard effects at the first chance they got, which of course makes them function more like attrition discard than targeted discard. No one ever really liked thoughtseize though, because of the 2 life loss, which, as you pointed out, is pretty significant in those types of games.

Getting hammered by persecute is a feel bad, but its a feel bad that makes my format better. In order for persecute to be great, it requires a player be astute enough to select the right color, and for the target to have built a very durdly deck. Without some sort of condensing force (and all condensing forces in cube are going to result in a feel bad at some point) like wasteland or persecute, I'll find myself in an EDH cube in a heartbeat. My players as a whole don't want an EDH cube, and persecute is one of the tools I use to draw those limits.

You don't have to run it, but I do think there is a benefit in finding impactful discard to pressure the hand, so players have an incentive to play out spells prior to turn <x>.
 
I certainly see the benefit of running Persecute type effects as a way to discourage durdling (and God knows I have a problem over here with that). But there are two mechanics my group is quick to form negative opinions on: discard and land destruction.

I don't think the objections on either front are all that rational in cube due to the higher power level and better mana availability (especially now). But perceptions (many formed years ago) are sometimes very hard to fight and this is just not an area I want to expend energy swimming upstream. It doesn't help that the frequency of our sessions has dropped considerably since a friend of mine moved, so I've been trying to make the sessions we do get as fun as possible (which means limiting the more experimental and controversial ideas sadly). It is what it is unfortunately.

If I ever got a completely new group (highly unlikely based on how motivated I am to meet new people), I would consider several of your ideas for encouraging less midrange and durdle (including this one) as I think they are well thought out.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
I actually run Blackmail. It consistently outperforms or at least competes with Thoughtseize and friends. If they have 0-3 cards, its better than any of its kin, at 4-5 cards its usually at least as good as Duress, sometimes straight up better than its kin because of its ability to take lands and the difficult decision it presents them with. At 6-7 cards in their hand, it gets a little iffy but because the card quality is relatively flat, it has still taken a relevant card every single time. Nobody has 3 duds to reveal. We have yet to have a single resolution of this card feel worse than resolving any of its kin. Until then, its nowhere near the cutting board over here.

How often do you guys choose a land to discard?

Also interesting, Blackmail is strictly superior when targeting yourself (for reanimation purposes, for example).
 
Some things not listed, of varying power levels:



Grillo's categories are interesting. Is there something else about using discard as a way of generating card advantage for a control deck (of the different sort that we have been used to?) I would also say that as well as cards like thoughtsieze being used for varience and disrupt combo, there's also something about being able to interact with sorceries (and instants to some extent) that you wouldn't normally be able to outside of counterspells. More relevant the more you play with cards like upheaval and tooth and nail I guess?
 
I wonder if Strongarm Tactics is more flexible than it looks. It's either a hand-targetting creature kill spell (somewhat lackluster, as they lose no mana from casting it, but oh well), or 4 to the dome, both of which seem useful in aggressive black decks. I'm not sure it's quite getting there for me, but I can see some potential even at 2 mana, maybe..
 
I wonder if Strongarm Tactics is more flexible than it looks. It's either a hand-targetting creature kill spell (somewhat lackluster, as they lose no mana from casting it, but oh well), or 4 to the dome, both of which seem useful in aggressive black decks. I'm not sure it's quite getting there for me, but I can see some potential even at 2 mana, maybe..

it was bad when i tested it, even with bloodsoaked champions

i really want it to be good though and it might be a matter of how many creatures like to be in the yard in aggressive black decks (and changing the mana cost to {B}) so if wizards print a few more good recursive creatures i'll probably come around on it.

e: re-adding b-ghast and vengevine
 
untargeted discard seems hella bad in our kinda cubes guys.
I wana give you a sassy talking point about strongarm tactics but I just don't have it in me to beat up on something so pathetic.

Discard is really rough honestly, I think it requires additional utility to be properly cubable and not too frustrating.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
How about just breaking singleton alot on thoughtseize and inquisition. Something like x3 thoughtseize, x3 inquisition; x2 thoughtseize, x2 inquisition, x2 therapy; or x6 thoughtseize.

Treat it like blacks version of mana elves or brainstorms, and just acknowledge that only only a small number of cards ever printed will be good enough in a higher powered environment.

realistically, these are your only options:



I find it difficult to imagine blightning being good enough.

Or maybe use this to justify running 6 copies of this card...

 
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