Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
What. Now you're just trolling dude!
Card/Deck Single Card Spotlight
- Thread starter Dom Harvey
- Start date
What. Now you're just trolling dude!
Dom Harvey
Contributor
Even when I was fully committed to Gravecrawler, I wanted the other ETB removal creatures over Skinrender.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I'll second that if power level is a concern, than skin render over shriekmaw, or maybe nekrataal over both. Its just a question of what quality body you want left over to recoup the tempo off of spending 4-5 mana on a sorcery speed last gasp or terror.
I think its ok to have some of those midrange value guys, just not so many that you can start building value decks around them. The nice thing about skinrender and nekrataal is that they have double black in their cc making them less splashable.
I think its ok to have some of those midrange value guys, just not so many that you can start building value decks around them. The nice thing about skinrender and nekrataal is that they have double black in their cc making them less splashable.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Your power level must be pretty high then, because I can't fathom a fair environment where dishing out a permanent Last Gasp off a Hill Giant with a relevant creature type is *actively bad*.
I can understand it. Last Gasp is quite weak. It's ok limited removal. And hill giant is nowhere a cube card. So if last gasp is especially bad in your format, being an incidental hill giant isn't going to help much. And if your cube is blazingly fast, you would probably rather just have last gasp so you could cast it two turns earlier.
Skinrender isn't a last gasp. It's a targeted -3/-3 wither effect on a decent body. I can't imagine under what conditions it's a bad card. Underwhelming against some match-ups, sure. But it's got value written all over it. I cut it because I don't want too many cards like that which just make goodstuffmidrange.dec auto draftable.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Personally I have Skinrender over Nekrataal, because not being able to hit artifacts and black creatures is kinda a big deal. Skinrender is unconditional, and though it doesn't guarantee a kill, a permanent -3/-3 is big enough of a debuff that it might just as well be straight up destroy most of the time. I would also rate it higher than Murderous Redcap, unless you got tricks in your cube/deck that can abuse persist, like Birthing Pod or Curse of Predation, because the frankly Skinrender is both a better removal spell and a better body. Oh, and a zombie!
At least we can agree on Shriekmaw, plus dat art! Shriekmaw might sport my favorite artwork.
At least we can agree on Shriekmaw, plus dat art! Shriekmaw might sport my favorite artwork.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
I've barely ever found redcap to have any text other than persist
In practice, Nekrataal's nonblack drawback is lessened in a draft environment, because by the very nature of taking a 
card, you're staking a claim in heavy black, and therefore are more likely to be taking many of the playable black creatures yourself. (To take this point one step further, I would say that even if Soul Reap were instant speed, it would be a much worse cube card than Doom Blade, because the former will miss a lot more of your opponent's creatures, even if in the abstract they hit roughly the same number of total cube creatures.) I'll concede that the nonartifact clause might be a bigger deal in some environments than others, though I would argue that Skinrender misses a lot more large creatures than Nekrataal does artifacts.
Also, as much as Skinrender is a zombie, Nekrataal is a human!
card, you're staking a claim in heavy black, and therefore are more likely to be taking many of the playable black creatures yourself. (To take this point one step further, I would say that even if Soul Reap were instant speed, it would be a much worse cube card than Doom Blade, because the former will miss a lot more of your opponent's creatures, even if in the abstract they hit roughly the same number of total cube creatures.) I'll concede that the nonartifact clause might be a bigger deal in some environments than others, though I would argue that Skinrender misses a lot more large creatures than Nekrataal does artifacts.Also, as much as Skinrender is a zombie, Nekrataal is a human!
I was recently having some issues with drafters picking up as many midrangey value cards as possible to the point that it was borderline oppressive, not to mention very boring. As a result I've started cutting back more heavily on the quantity of ETB creatures in my cube. I wouldn't worry so much about Nekrataal vs. Skinrender as I would the overall number of those types of creatures.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
This is really interesting: I would have rated them shriekmaw, redcap, skinrender, nekretaal. I really like the non-artifact, non-black restrictions. The removal effect feels strong, but the condition forces you to meta the format more, and helps balance getting a body + spell vs a control deck just having a removal spell.
Sorry about misleading you a bit james. Im posting on my phone and didnt read the text of skinrender before picking a removal anology.
Sorry about misleading you a bit james. Im posting on my phone and didnt read the text of skinrender before picking a removal anology.
Where's the love for
?
I'm playing him and shriekmaw. If I had to choose another, would probably go with skinrender.
?I'm playing him and shriekmaw. If I had to choose another, would probably go with skinrender.
I'd go:
And I've actually cut Nekrataal in favor of a 2nd Shriekmaw. I like the utility it allows for as a kill spell earlier in the game. It's conditional enough that it's not oppressive, and it the late game it comes down on a reasonable body to boot. Great card. Skinrender is awesome though, giving something permanent -3/-3 was way more interesting than just straight destroying it. It has that Flametongue Kavu wording where you can't just play it on an empty board. It's a zombie, a fair 4 drop, has a cool effect that works against every creature in my cube, and it has more play to it. Huge fan of Skinrender, I don't see myself cutting him anytime in the near future.
I once set up a sick loop with Phyrexian Tower and Volrath's Stronghold to rebuy it over and over and attrition out my opponent in the later parts of that match. It was so dope.
And I've actually cut Nekrataal in favor of a 2nd Shriekmaw. I like the utility it allows for as a kill spell earlier in the game. It's conditional enough that it's not oppressive, and it the late game it comes down on a reasonable body to boot. Great card. Skinrender is awesome though, giving something permanent -3/-3 was way more interesting than just straight destroying it. It has that Flametongue Kavu wording where you can't just play it on an empty board. It's a zombie, a fair 4 drop, has a cool effect that works against every creature in my cube, and it has more play to it. Huge fan of Skinrender, I don't see myself cutting him anytime in the near future.
I once set up a sick loop with Phyrexian Tower and Volrath's Stronghold to rebuy it over and over and attrition out my opponent in the later parts of that match. It was so dope.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Bone shedder is prob my favorite of those effects because of the natural interaction with graveyard and sacrifice strategies. The evasion and etb is also great with ninja of the deep hours, which is of course priority for me. Its the closest i've gotten to recreating the feel of ninja and spellstutter.
Anyone want to enter gilt-leaf winnower into the competition?
Anyone want to enter gilt-leaf winnower into the competition?
I probably am still running one too many of these removal-on-a-stick guys. I have shriekmaw, redcap, nekrataal and bone shredder at 450.
Of those, I think nekrataal is the one I would cut first. I love bone shredder. Every time I've taken him out of my list, I've regretted it.
Of those, I think nekrataal is the one I would cut first. I love bone shredder. Every time I've taken him out of my list, I've regretted it.
It doesn't matter - my point is still that if -3/-3 is not good enough in your cube, skinrender will not be amazing.
Really interesting posts from everyone - it's illuminating to see how everyone evaluates Skinrender against all of the other options in the same camp. This thread normally covers cards that are borderline playable, but we should do more of these head-to-head comparisons with cards that are being run by everyone!
Dom Harvey
Contributor
When Skinrender 'fails', it's really bad. I want my removal spell to remove Polukranos, Courser of Kruphix, Spellskite, Ojutai Exemplars, Thundermaw Hellkite, or whatever, not just weaken it. Killing persist creatures is especially nice in my Cube, but beyond that I'd rather have Shriekmaw and Bone Shredder.
Redcap is super sweet though.
I feel this is an interesting point that seems to be in the undercurrent of the conversation here: Skinrender is, to some of you, not good enough and too weak, while, at the same time, a lot of people here also seem pretty keen to avoid too many strictly "good" value creatures like Thragtusk. I point this out not to criticize James (or anyone else, for that matter), but simply to note that I find it very intriguing where the lines are being drawn. In this case, Skinrender can destroy a majority of cube creatures and permanently cripple those too big to go down, all at 4 mana with a body that is not irrelevant in environs pushing aggro and curating midrange valuetown decks, without the sometimes unfair-feeling evasiveness of Shriekmaw, who often is a removal check in my own environ due to a lack of many artifact creatures. It intrigues me that a fairer body that doesn't hose big stompy strategies and punishes the little things gets passed on while an evasive, less conditioned one gets top preference in black; meanwhile, Thraggy and his little brother Obstinate Baloth are often scorned for being too midrange goodstuff for green. I feel perhaps the departure point is the black creatures are proactively shaping the board while Thraggy and Thraggy Jr. feel less proactive (though I suspect strongly it's also their lack of flair, too), but either way, I have to agree that these head-to-head comparisons of popular staples is very interesting to me for considering the subtle differences we all have in philosophy.
I think a very key difference between the two is that one of them, while providing you with "free value", is also pushing the game to a close. Looping a thragtusk isn't going to make you win more, it's making you lose less, so in that sense I think I'd rather have someone blow up my board and then proceed to red-zone me a handful of turns before we just scoop up and try again instead of me sitting with pen and pad and just marking life totals go up and down (in it's most extreme case).
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I was wondering: what if you take that list and remove shriekmaw from it? How does it look than? I think you kind of have to bump nekrataal way up, because at that point the effect is unique.
Also, if skinrender and murderous redcap aren't good enough, is that because these cards are being played more in their environments for their removal value and the body is just an after thought? I really like redcap, but thats because I value both the damage and the body pretty highly.
Also, if skinrender and murderous redcap aren't good enough, is that because these cards are being played more in their environments for their removal value and the body is just an after thought? I really like redcap, but thats because I value both the damage and the body pretty highly.
I'd consider Shriekmaw to be more of a Doom Blade. Well, when I ran two of them, I classified one as a 2-drop and one as a 5-drop, but I'd most likely "file" it under the 2-mana spell category.