I would argue that Jeskai Ascendancy is the payoff card. All you have to do is throw together a spells matter deck, with a hint of either ramp or tokens or even weenies/counterburn. Ascendancy generates so much value in any UWR deck, its practically goodstuff in the right environment. Instants turn into hand fixing combat tricks of doom? What UWR shell doesn't want that. It also happens to be a build around and a combo machine.
Card/Deck Single Card Spotlight
- Thread starter Dom Harvey
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I would argue that Jeskai Ascendancy is the payoff card. All you have to do is throw together a spells matter deck, with a hint of either ramp or tokens or even weenies/counterburn. Ascendancy generates so much value in any UWR deck, its practically goodstuff in the right environment. Instants turn into hand fixing combat tricks of doom? What UWR shell doesn't want that. It also happens to be a build around and a combo machine.
The problem is that, despite the power it has once online, it demands you construct a pretty specific deck, and as such, I find it more of a build-around (something that can generate lots of value if you meet its requirements by building around it) rather than a payoff card (something that pays off once you fulfill its requirements). Let's consider its limitations:
- It needs abundant fixing to play correctly: You can reach and splash for Siege Rhino and cast it whenever; however, Ascendancy is not really a card you can risk having dead in your hand for turns and turns, because it's a value engine that you need to run out before you cast too many spells to generate value out of. Speaking of timing constraints...
- It requires a specific game state to use it in: Sure, Ascendancy can warp the game around itself once it sticks on the battlefield if you have spells in-hand and creatures on the board, but the Rhino will do its duty when you drop it on the board no matter what, whether you drop it T3 off of a ramp deck, or T11 on a clogged board; you will get your load of value no matter when you play the Rhino, whereas you can cast Ascendancy and see it do virtually nothing even if your deck is well-oiled enough to run it. As I said above, unlike Siege Rhino, Ascendancy gets worse as the game winds on, because, in a Spells-Matters deck, you're going to only have so many spells, and those spells will be cast as the game drives forward. Which leads me into my next point...
- It has real deck-building constraints: 3 colours is a tense enough hill to climb, but let's say you've climbed it, and now have a nice 17-land section for your deck. Ascendancy means 1 of your (likely) 23 other deck slots is taken. What do you do with the other 22? Hopefully, you've got some playable token-making spells; you also really, really want Monastery Mentor and Young Pyromancer in this deck, too, to offset the spells tilt even further. Someone with better Math Wizard Skills than me can outline this if they care to, but, I know that I typically tried to run at least 11 other spells with Ascendancy, and that, over the course of the game, I usually end up using, at the bare minimum, 2 of them before sticking the Ascendancy. If we assume we play it on T3, with even 10 spells left in-deck, we have, roughly, a 1 in 3 chance to draw a spell after that, and we ideally want to keep 2 spells in-hand, so we can keep pulling through a combo chain if possible or double-pump our battle biscuits on-board. Nevermind the need to plant some creatures, keep those creatures alive, and manage villain over there! And what if you didn't get token producers? Can your deck grind to victory off the back of 10 creatures? Do you have recursion? In
? Do you have a token-spitting Planeswalker? How can you get by if Villain has even 4 pieces of removal, or is in a stompy deck? What if they're some reanimator build? What if they're the one who drafted all the burn and that Monastery Mentor you needed? Siege Rhino does not require this level of strategic planning; Siege Rhino is just here to have a good time. Speaking of good times... - There's no ways to play Ascendancy more easily or exploit it: Each of Rhino's 3 colours have ways to abuse it or get it out more easily. Green has naturally fantastic colour access and some cheat tools; white has blink effects that nearly everyone runs; and black almost always has reanimator tools at its disposal. Being a body provides tons of more easy value to the card, and means the only real restraint on playing it is fixing; Ascendancy's tools for play are less abundant, and it requires a specific track of drafting and deck-building to use properly, making it much more of a build-around value engine card.
Don't get me wrong, I see why people like Jeskai Ascendancy, and if your format is extremely generous in its fixing, then it's probably a real hoot. But given the wealth of constraints it puts on a deck: 3 colours that need plentiful fixing, needs the right game state (spells in hand, creatures on board), really really wants token producers, and likely wants perhaps a cube's only relevant tutor effect... I just didn't find it worth the hassle, especially since it was such a trap in drafting for players who couldn't recognize how they needed to set up their deck to use it best. More to the point: Prowess Beats is a Tier 1 deck over here already, and one of the most popular to draft aside from that; for me, it didn't need the incentive/reward card. I can see a more powerful environment really wanting it to help stitch the beast together, but over here, if you assembled the deck well enough to make Ascendancy a good tool in it, you likely didn't need the Ascendancy to stomp over your opponent and have tons of fun, anyway.
I'll just chime in to say that abundant available fixing in a cube doesn't necessarily have to correspond with three, four, and five-colour rainbow decks from all of the drafters. For a variety of reasons, people in various playgroups may want to stick to fewer colours, even when duals and fetches are ripe for the picking. Personally - with 50 dual lands in my 360 list (and more in the utility land draft) - I used to default to two-colour decks splashing two more colours, whether playing aggro, midrange, or control, and couldn't dream of drafting with fewer colours. Lately, though, I've come to realize that the opportunity cost of splashing those extra colours is losing access to powerful colourless utility lands, which can often more than make up for the power of those missing colours. For other, more novice players who cube with us, going beyond two colours too often is something that's outside of their comfort zone.
I'm not really a big fan of prescribing drafting styles for my playgroup, who have varied levels of experience with both Magic itself and with organized, competitive play; three colour cards, especially build-arounds, send a strong message that "you have to do what Eric's telling you", and if anything I'm going for the opposite effect. There's no reason that players can't build successful two-colour, , or heck, even prowess-style decks, and forcing people to reach for a third colour for a single card in the cube that isn't always clearly better than Looter il-Kor in those decks isn't somehting I'm prepared to do.
With all that said, I get that the card has a lot of fans on this very forum, and I think this comes down mostly to playgroup differences. I'm certainly not trying to shout down people who are having fun with it, and I think it's pretty awesome if your groups can get it to work; I just wanted to illustrate why, in different playgroups with different mindsets, the card isn't always a grand slam home run.
I'm not really a big fan of prescribing drafting styles for my playgroup, who have varied levels of experience with both Magic itself and with organized, competitive play; three colour cards, especially build-arounds, send a strong message that "you have to do what Eric's telling you", and if anything I'm going for the opposite effect. There's no reason that players can't build successful two-colour
, , or heck, even prowess-style decks, and forcing people to reach for a third colour for a single card in the cube that isn't always clearly better than Looter il-Kor in those decks isn't somehting I'm prepared to do.With all that said, I get that the card has a lot of fans on this very forum, and I think this comes down mostly to playgroup differences. I'm certainly not trying to shout down people who are having fun with it, and I think it's pretty awesome if your groups can get it to work; I just wanted to illustrate why, in different playgroups with different mindsets, the card isn't always a grand slam home run.
I definitely agree with this. And this goes back to an overall design philosophy. How much do you push the archetypes and synergies you've designed for? Versus how much do you leave to just organic drafting? I feel there is a happy medium somewhere in between where you have clear themes and synergies that people can see and take advantage of, but you still have enough "good stuff" cards (for lack of a better term), that enable people to get pretty creative with interactions.
I've mentioned this before, but I feel like some of the coolest cube stories are random interactions which pop up that you didn't plan for when you built the cube.
That said, tri-colored cards seem perfect for adding spice to a draft. So maybe not a permanent part of your base cube, but something you randomly add to packs. So you could see Jeskai Ascendancy or maybe Siege Rhino or Sidisi, Brood Tyrant. Or none of them. That way, you would get the experience of being able to draft those decks, but you wouldn't constantly be seeing the same forced archetypes. I think Jason is doing something like that.
What about Jeskai Ascendancy at ? Would that not be an amazing cube card? I feel like all it needs is to stop randomly having a third color.
? Would that not be an amazing cube card? I feel like all it needs is to stop randomly having a third color.
Okay, new question. Who's tested
?
I want a scary dude that can be cheated in but ostensibly hard-cast sometimes (sorry Ms Emma). I hope the colourless requirements will neuter some of the deck's power vis a vis Grixis Reanimator, my current cheaty 'deck to beat'. I really really like the counterspell ability but I worry some Bant build could just t1 dork, t2 Show and Tell, protected win by t4.
Is there counterplay around Menace? Does this guy ever, ever die? Is it way too strong for my list? Tia.
e: Yes, I know it has a cast trigger. I want it to be stronger when cast than reanimated, but a 12/12 menace that protects itself is more than strong enough without the draw-7. Shelldock Isle is also a fun interaction.
?I want a scary dude that can be cheated in but ostensibly hard-cast sometimes (sorry Ms Emma). I hope the colourless requirements will neuter some of the deck's power vis a vis Grixis Reanimator, my current cheaty 'deck to beat'. I really really like the counterspell ability but I worry some Bant build could just t1 dork, t2 Show and Tell, protected win by t4.
Is there counterplay around Menace? Does this guy ever, ever die? Is it way too strong for my list? Tia.
e: Yes, I know it has a cast trigger. I want it to be stronger when cast than reanimated, but a 12/12 menace that protects itself is more than strong enough without the draw-7. Shelldock Isle is also a fun interaction.
enough though
I've had Kozilek around since Oath, although I haven't done a whole lot of drafts and I've never personally played with or against him, which seems to indicate that he's a pretty low pick-up level. I've cut down on my reanimation and I don't run any Show and Tell type cards, though.
The most notable interaction I saw was when he was revealed to someone's Dark Confidant.
The most notable interaction I saw was when he was revealed to someone's Dark Confidant.
23 copies on the top 8 of Worlds 2002. Fact of Fiction's best buddy. Happily married to Circular Logic.
Fast forward 14 years...
In cube, people seem inclined not to run him because he reads so bad. He fares badly in midrangey cubes, and without the Upheaval and all the graveyard/madness, Tog has been outclassed. In ancient iterations of my cube I've seen it take games no other card would, but I've also seen it be an overcosted Squire (!). He's been on the bench for years because he was a last pick so often, but in my modular cube efforts I've come across him as the perfect UB card to run in a madness/graveyard/reanimator module.
What's your experience with Tog?
Why are people comparing siege rhino and ascendancy? They're completely different. It's not like you choose one or the other.
I think it's more of a discussion of "what kind of cards work as 3-color cube cards".
Psychatog is absolutely fantastic in my cube. In UB control, you usually try to untap with it, kill their creatures and swing for lethal, which has happened to me a couple of times. Tog is just fun to play with, you can burn it to reduce its resources, it presents interesting decisions in combat, etc. I don't know why it isn't loved around here, esp with graveyard/Innistrad cubes, I'd think it would fit right in. My group picks (or hate picks) tog pretty highly. If you see it like pick 4 or 5, UB is probs open.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
You do run it's best buddy Upheaval though, which is considered OP in a lot of Riptide cubes. I cut Psychatog a long time ago after it was routinely sideboarded.
Sure, Upheaval and Psychatog is a 2 card 9 mana combo. Overpowered? You have to get to 9 mana. Upheaval is dead vs aggro anyway. My group hasn't minded long reset games too much. We're generally up all night anyway.
Upheaval is dead vs aggro anyway. My group hasn't minded long reset games too much. We're generally up all night anyway.
From what I've experienced and have heard, Upheaval is the most consistent swing in game state to either ~100% chance of winning... several turns later, or ~0% chance of winning.. several turns later, depending on if you are ahead or behind on resolution.
Whatever the case may be, my group isn't a big fan of full resets.
Love Crush of Tentacles
Whatever the case may be, my group isn't a big fan of full resets.
Love Crush of Tentacles
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
My experiences with tog are exactly like jphans. The floor is so low that it really hurts the cards playability, though you can play to game states where it is very good.
These are all in lower powered formats. I think the issue is that modern card design can generally give you much more power without any sort of conditionality attached, and atog is a low power design by that metric.
These are all in lower powered formats. I think the issue is that modern card design can generally give you much more power without any sort of conditionality attached, and atog is a low power design by that metric.
The only thing appealing about Psychatog is that's it's an old school power card and it has a sweet nickname (Dr. Teeth).
I've heard people reference the tog + upheaval "combo" but never saw anyone do it when both were in my cube. And it doesn't seem like it's that great a combo since Tog doesn't have haste. So yeah, I get that it synergizes, but it's still just a 1/2 dude with no evasion. And maybe you can pump him once or twice to a 10/11 but he's still getting stonewalled by pretty much every creature in the cube.
I'm sure you can win a lot of games off a 9 mana upheaval, but I suspect you'd probably win the same number of those games with or without Tog. Either you can take advantage of the upheaval or you can't really. It's like saying random 1 toughness dude + skullclamp is a combo. Which of those is actually the important part of that "combo" again?
What I will point out is that the power max crowd still has respect for Tog (wtwlf in particular), so I suspect the card is much better in environments with degenerate mana generation. If that describes your cube, you may consider testing him especially if you dig running retro cards.
I've heard people reference the tog + upheaval "combo" but never saw anyone do it when both were in my cube. And it doesn't seem like it's that great a combo since Tog doesn't have haste. So yeah, I get that it synergizes, but it's still just a 1/2 dude with no evasion. And maybe you can pump him once or twice to a 10/11 but he's still getting stonewalled by pretty much every creature in the cube.
I'm sure you can win a lot of games off a 9 mana upheaval, but I suspect you'd probably win the same number of those games with or without Tog. Either you can take advantage of the upheaval or you can't really. It's like saying random 1 toughness dude + skullclamp is a combo. Which of those is actually the important part of that "combo" again?
What I will point out is that the power max crowd still has respect for Tog (wtwlf in particular), so I suspect the card is much better in environments with degenerate mana generation. If that describes your cube, you may consider testing him especially if you dig running retro cards.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I don't know if I would say the powermax crowd holds him in high regard. I checked out the mtgsalvation thread, and it looks like wtwlf trying to hard sell him with little to no data outside "my playgroup likes it", while most of the rest of the posters bring expectations down to a more reasonable stance: U/B blocker in control that can convert itself into a win con later, has some use as an enabler, and at a certain point in the game can start leveraging perceived pressure (though I feel the color combination makes this a rather poor role compared to something like a double strike threat).
Thats pretty spot on with how I've seen it play out, and isn't bad at all. However, one of the frustrations I've had with the card is that this feels like a fairly replaceable role to spend a gold slot on, especially when the card can be surprisingly picky about the structure of the deck it goes into.
This is probably the most fair evaluation:
Thats pretty spot on with how I've seen it play out, and isn't bad at all. However, one of the frustrations I've had with the card is that this feels like a fairly replaceable role to spend a gold slot on, especially when the card can be surprisingly picky about the structure of the deck it goes into.
This is probably the most fair evaluation:
This feels a little bit like bringing the thread full circle . I think this is the 'Tog that many cubes want. It's one color, less mana, and everything else 2013 Dom says:
It's helping breathe new life into my section alongside the testing of an in-color strategy to fill up your hand with stuff to pitch (lands).
. I think this is the 'Tog that many cubes want. It's one color, less mana, and everything else 2013 Dom says:Here we discuss individual cards in more detail than the passing mentions we often give them in threads.
I'll start:
Man, everyone lovesYoung WolfWild Mongrel! What a guy.
Wild Mongrel's a card I'm going to be a running a full pack of. It's one of the premier 2-drops not just in green but across all colours, and unlike most of its competition it lets you go very deep. Wild Mongrel is:
- busted with draw-7s (Wheel of Fortune, Time Spiral, Timetwister, Memory Jar)
- able to kill the opponent out of nowhere if granted evasion/double strike/a free path through combat
- rather amusing with Prime Speaker Zegana
- an on-demand discard outlet for all your reanimation needs (or madness, Vengevine, dredge, etc.)
- the last dog standing after Wildfire
- not blunted by a lot of traditional aggro cards (Walls, Augur, large creatures)
- resistant to burn
- a source of interesting decision points for both players in combat
- the life of the party
It's helping breathe new life into my
section alongside the testing of an in-color strategy to fill up your hand with stuff to pitch (lands).
I've been wondering about adding another finisher for my Black section in my cube. Currently my top CMC cards are two delvers: Gurmag Angler and Tasigur but they both don't serve that well as curve toppers. I don't want something as powerful as Grave Titan, Griselbrand or Sheoldred so I wondered about this card:
It has a decent activation cost (have to have an unblocked attacker, sending it back to your hand is a tempo loss) with a pretty generous upside but that's what I want for a 6 CMC 5/4 creature. Regenerate is nice but might put it over the top. Would you think this is too powerful for my moderately (un)powered cube?
It has a decent activation cost (have to have an unblocked attacker, sending it back to your hand is a tempo loss) with a pretty generous upside but that's what I want for a 6 CMC 5/4 creature. Regenerate is nice but might put it over the top. Would you think this is too powerful for my moderately (un)powered cube?
I think it's a little weak actually, and I ran it for months but ended up cutting it. You know what's a cool black 6?
The second ability is static and always triggers if you have it out, in case you're not sold yet. So good, real strong, but somehow not overwhelming in my format (unlike its original limited environment where it was basically a free 2-1 or better).
My fav black six
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I also don't think ink-eyes would be a good fit.
Another option, if you are looking for something stronger than ink-eyes, but weaker than massacre wurm:
Another option, if you are looking for something stronger than ink-eyes, but weaker than massacre wurm:
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
I don't think Ink Eyes is too powerful for your environment. In order for her to give you any stability when you cast her you need:
1) A creature that cam actually get in.
2) A creature in the opponent's graveyard that actually provides you with some stability
3) 5 mana
That's a pretty big ask all things considered. Casting her for 6 is pretty poor. Best case scenario is you steal something good and bounce a powerful ETB creature to recast next turn that seals up the game and considering the conditional nature of the ability I think that's more then fair for the cost.
I'm probably the only one, but I still like Necropolis Regent.
1) A creature that cam actually get in.
2) A creature in the opponent's graveyard that actually provides you with some stability
3) 5 mana
That's a pretty big ask all things considered. Casting her for 6 is pretty poor. Best case scenario is you steal something good and bounce a powerful ETB creature to recast next turn that seals up the game and considering the conditional nature of the ability I think that's more then fair for the cost.
I'm probably the only one, but I still like Necropolis Regent.