My format only has 1 true sweeper and the rest are conditional but my meta sees all sorts of different viable decks. I think there are plenty of knobs to turn aside from merely supplying X number of unconditional wraths in white to get a healthy format (although my format certainly isn't perfected by any means).
Card/Deck Single Card Spotlight
- Thread starter Dom Harvey
- Start date
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I would caution with that being too reductive, and those catagorizions aren't really practical when you look at the context of the format. I ran a similar setup with my innistrad format years ago, and the aggro decks pretty much just stomped everything. Midrange decks need to be able to compete with tempo generation in order to stay competitive with aggro; to keep wide boards or reach from closing out the game. They need competively priced spot removal to taper the board to something controllable. Yes, they aren't as dependent on efficient removal as a control deck is, but its still an important part of their gameplan. Here they don't have that, and they also don't have a wealth of ETBs to make up lost time.
The deck I drafted above, would be something I would be comfortable taking into multiplayer games of magic in a format like this, and I have. I drafted a R/W champion deck years ago in the old innistrad format that had no problem cutting through 40 life like butter. And that format at least had a density of ETB creatures to help the midrange decks. You just can't have a large portion of your removal turning on turn 3, than having it be edicts against decks like that that run tokens, or burn that champion or noble quickly outgrows.
I understand liking the midrange structure of the PP2 cube, and the way blue was balanced, but I feel like this is an awkward grafting of two worlds, and seeing as his drafters like grindy blue decks, I kind of doubt they are going to take well to this, and that sucks. A really good map for mixing some of my principles with more normal riptide principles is sigh's cube or RBM's. Onder's is maybe too exotic because of energy? But I dunno, but I would give it a look too.
This seems perfect in the context of the decks we are talking about. efficiently deals with Champ etc., but isn't a catchall. My favorite 'conditional' removal spell, though, is definitely
Which suuuper conveniently can't hit the sweet build-around multicolor cards, but is still very effective.
What do we think of this as mid-high power CA engine? Interacts nicely with artifacts-matter stuff and ensures you never run out of gas.
There are so many other CA engines available in blue that are more interesting than this, and it really falls off when you're running good draw spells.
Dom Harvey
Contributor
One idea I've been kicking around is using the enchantments that convert one card type or resource to another (Trail of Evidence, Ulvenwald Mysteries) as the main CA engines in an environment. Cool things happen if you have enough ways to exploit (e.g. literal Exploit) a random Clue or 1/1.
A player who makes lots of wacky decks around here had a Trail of Evidence/Inspiring Statuary/Metallurgic Summonings deck in the previous Standard that used cantrips and the improvise cards to chain spells together and fuel massive Battle at the Bridges while developing a great board. It was a delight to watch when it went off
A player who makes lots of wacky decks around here had a Trail of Evidence/Inspiring Statuary/Metallurgic Summonings deck in the previous Standard that used cantrips and the improvise cards to chain spells together and fuel massive Battle at the Bridges while developing a great board. It was a delight to watch when it went off
Since this is the thread to speak about specific and unrelated cards... I would like to hear your opinions on Vendilion Clique. I think it does not add much to the cube regarding sinergy levels and it is there because I may feel a need to show that my cube is still that collection of iconic, powerful cards of Magic's history. However, Vendilion Clique is powerful in other formats for reasons that not necessarily apply to (my) cube. I will probably cut it for Clocknapper, since there are not many reusable flickering around here. So, what do you think Vendilion Clique can offer or not to a cube?
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Vendilion Clique is an awesome card. Knowing who to target and what card to pick, even if a card should be picked at all, is a sweet skill test. Knowing your opponent's hand allows you to better plan future turns. In addition, it gives blue a sorely needed evasive clock that's actually interesting to play. Last but not least, it is always fun to play with Clique, but never too demoralizing to play against, I like that in a card. It is the only blue three drop I for sure would never ever cut from my cube.
I second Onder on basically all points. Card is very cool, adding unique effects to blue on an evasive creature. Also cannot ever see taking them out.
Also, clocknapper is major bleh. Even with no blink effects, it's incredibly strong, putting you up two cards and also up up to ten, twelve, or possibly more mana. But I see you already run Arcane Savant, which was my other card that immediately came to mind as "5 mana way over the top etb creature", so it's up to you. Don't see how any other 5 drop in your cube can hold up to Savant and Napper.
Has anybody had any experience with this:
I also give out free cycling lands. Seems like a neat manland effect in fetchland (and cycle land) formats. Efficient for aggro, and more consistently available in the longer-game decks with more GY interaction. Testable, at least?
Also, clocknapper is major bleh. Even with no blink effects, it's incredibly strong, putting you up two cards and also up up to ten, twelve, or possibly more mana. But I see you already run Arcane Savant, which was my other card that immediately came to mind as "5 mana way over the top etb creature", so it's up to you. Don't see how any other 5 drop in your cube can hold up to Savant and Napper.
Has anybody had any experience with this:
I also give out free cycling lands. Seems like a neat manland effect in fetchland (and cycle land) formats. Efficient for aggro, and more consistently available in the longer-game decks with more GY interaction. Testable, at least?
I recently replaced Clique with Nimble Obstructionist because I wanted something different. I kept feeling like Clique wasn't doing enough to justify its inclusion. The stifle effect is interesting, kind of gives people something else to play around, and I guess being able to put itself in the yard is a thing maybe. Maybe I'll bring back Clique at some point but I really don't feel like its necessary.
Clique is one of the most well designed cards in Magic's history and has a ton of play to it. There are few things I enjoy more in Magic that firing off a Clique at my opponent's draw step to gauge the situation/bottom a timely topdeck. It is one of the few cards that will never ever be on the chopping block for me.
I don't think Clocknapper is in the same realm of playability/utility as Clique, and I've never been impressed with Obstructionist. I'm not looking for just a 3/1 flash flier or a cycling stifle effect that will use up most of my mana for a turn. That environment may have way more effects that it can actually stifle, but in the typical cubes around here I don't think there are any other blue 3 drops that come close to Clique's utility. It's just such a versatile card.
I don't think Clocknapper is in the same realm of playability/utility as Clique, and I've never been impressed with Obstructionist. I'm not looking for just a 3/1 flash flier or a cycling stifle effect that will use up most of my mana for a turn. That environment may have way more effects that it can actually stifle, but in the typical cubes around here I don't think there are any other blue 3 drops that come close to Clique's utility. It's just such a versatile card.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Chris Taylor
Contributor
And 10 years 
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I present you with the original 3/1 flying with upside!
So... yeah... This was a rare! In fact, it's the only mono blue 3/1 rare with flying other than Clique and Obstructionist. Guess we came a long way still
There's actually only been six different mono blue 3/1 flyers for three mana in the history of Magic. We've already seen three, there's two more commons that are functionally identical to Rishadan Airship (which, by the way, was good enough to see standard play in a skies deck!), and the sixth one is Horizon Drake, which does have an upside, even if it's a negligible one.
In conclusion, "can block only creatures with flying" is literally the only downside we've ever seen on a three mana mono blue 3/1 flyer, Horizon Drake is a 3/1 flyer with upside that saw print seven years ago, and Vendilion Clique is the original 3/1 flyer with upside, and they are almost 10 years old! So...
... is hardly a fair observation
I do agree that it's exciting that they printed another good one after all these years though. Here's hoping we get more in the future
So... yeah... This was a rare! In fact, it's the only mono blue 3/1 rare with flying other than Clique and Obstructionist. Guess we came a long way still
There's actually only been six different mono blue 3/1 flyers for three mana in the history of Magic. We've already seen three, there's two more commons that are functionally identical to Rishadan Airship (which, by the way, was good enough to see standard play in a skies deck!), and the sixth one is Horizon Drake, which does have an upside, even if it's a negligible one.
In conclusion, "can block only creatures with flying" is literally the only downside we've ever seen on a three mana mono blue 3/1 flyer, Horizon Drake is a 3/1 flyer with upside that saw print seven years ago, and Vendilion Clique is the original 3/1 flyer with upside, and they are almost 10 years old! So...
... is hardly a fair observation
I do agree that it's exciting that they printed another good one after all these years though. Here's hoping we get more in the future
Chris Taylor
Contributor
That is a throughly researched zing
My point is basically that horizon drake was pretty neutral, and I'm mostly remembering airship
My point is basically that horizon drake was pretty neutral, and I'm mostly remembering airship
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Also, got to play with this card a lot:
And its basically just great. The entire point of these cards is to stress removal suites in tempo-shells, so the fact that it can't hit creatures is irrelevent something like 99% of the time. Most of the time its just a blatent misplay to not take the removal piece, and if they have no removal for whatever reason, duress hits all of the haymakers you care about, stressing there removal suite down the line when they finally find removal, and stressing there mana, which is the entire point of the design of these cards.
Meanwhile the body is a great tempo body to attach removal disruption to. During the 4-5 turns where katesail is waiting to get blasted, its actually capable of doing something relevent, unlike mes friend, which just sits there useless. And if for some bizarre reason you do miss, you at least get an evasive flyer, that can effectively pressure, fog anything for a turn (rather than just ground pounders), and occastionally holds off entire waves of multiple 1/1 tokens.
The body and entire design makes far more sense than mes fiend. These are supposed to be tempo cards, that stress the removal suite of a deck, and as such, should slot naturally into a black tempo shell--a shell which wants evasive pressure and removal disruption.
A 1/2 flying body that disrupts removal while pressuring is awesome, while a 1/1 body that disrupts removal, while not pressuring, is confused about its place in the world.
And its basically just great. The entire point of these cards is to stress removal suites in tempo-shells, so the fact that it can't hit creatures is irrelevent something like 99% of the time. Most of the time its just a blatent misplay to not take the removal piece, and if they have no removal for whatever reason, duress hits all of the haymakers you care about, stressing there removal suite down the line when they finally find removal, and stressing there mana, which is the entire point of the design of these cards.
Meanwhile the body is a great tempo body to attach removal disruption to. During the 4-5 turns where katesail is waiting to get blasted, its actually capable of doing something relevent, unlike mes friend, which just sits there useless. And if for some bizarre reason you do miss, you at least get an evasive flyer, that can effectively pressure, fog anything for a turn (rather than just ground pounders), and occastionally holds off entire waves of multiple 1/1 tokens.
The body and entire design makes far more sense than mes fiend. These are supposed to be tempo cards, that stress the removal suite of a deck, and as such, should slot naturally into a black tempo shell--a shell which wants evasive pressure and removal disruption.
A 1/2 flying body that disrupts removal while pressuring is awesome, while a 1/1 body that disrupts removal, while not pressuring, is confused about its place in the world.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I totally agree Grillo, the Freebooter is a great card!
How low power do you have to be to consider Kitesail Freebooter?
I am far below Vintage power but not quite as low as the Low Power-thread.
I am far below Vintage power but not quite as low as the Low Power-thread.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I wouldn't consider myself low power. You can take a look at my cube and see if it's comparable.
Well, Wizards has no idea what they are doing but all of these cards are in the Vintage Cube:
So to answer your question... You need to be EXTREME HIGH POWER to run the Freebooter.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I think with freebooter you would ideally want a B/x based tempo shell (but lets be honest, its going to be UB), which shouldn't be that hard to achieve even in fairely high power formats. Anytime where bashing in with 3 power flyers is good (even--especially?--if starting at 3cc) you probably have a reasonable shell to work with. Assertive disruption hitting removal is going to make cards like sower of temptation even better, and makes sequences possible where the opponent can't really win.
Chaining freebooter into Vendillion Clique also seems like a beating, and if we have soft counters like daze, force spike, or spell pierce, RIP the opponent's removal. This also gets to the relevence of the evasive body: swinging for 4 a turn with freebooter + clique in that scenario, is subtantially better than swinging for 3 a turn and mes. fiend looking on from the ground wishing he had wings.
The niche that I think mez fiend/brain maggot largely occupy is providing ways to increase the density of targeted discard effects, or provide a powered down thoughtseize effect--which is fine. I think a lot of cubes already running duress would be better off with kitesail given the choice, or could easily support both kitesail + duress. There are a lot of dials and knobs to that part of the analysis.
Basically, the closer you are to black based aggression and tempo, the more clearly I think freebooter slots into a format; however, formats just hungry for disruption--or unhappy with their current disruptive suite--might still consider it for a variety of reasons.
Chaining freebooter into Vendillion Clique also seems like a beating, and if we have soft counters like daze, force spike, or spell pierce, RIP the opponent's removal. This also gets to the relevence of the evasive body: swinging for 4 a turn with freebooter + clique in that scenario, is subtantially better than swinging for 3 a turn and mes. fiend looking on from the ground wishing he had wings.
The niche that I think mez fiend/brain maggot largely occupy is providing ways to increase the density of targeted discard effects, or provide a powered down thoughtseize effect--which is fine. I think a lot of cubes already running duress would be better off with kitesail given the choice, or could easily support both kitesail + duress. There are a lot of dials and knobs to that part of the analysis.
Basically, the closer you are to black based aggression and tempo, the more clearly I think freebooter slots into a format; however, formats just hungry for disruption--or unhappy with their current disruptive suite--might still consider it for a variety of reasons.
FlowerSunRain
Contributor
How does this card play? Awesome or lame?
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
In Kaladesh limited it was pretty hard to deal with, mainly because sorcery speed creature reveal doesn't hit it. The card is fun to play with, but whether it is fun to play against is determined largely by your removal sweet. If you have a lot of artifact removal and instant speed creature removal, it might be fine. If you run a lot of sorcery speed removal like me, eesh!