General The Cube Contest
- Thread starter Meltyman
- Start date
I am undertaking two primary tasks to convert a 360: (1) adding 'seasoning' cards that would not be missed if they neglected to show up (or have their partners show up) every draft and (2) doubling/tripling up on meat-and-potato cards.
My primary concern is supporting synergy/strategy density while enauring each draft will not showcase the same X or so archetypes among the 8 decks.
Here is a good firestarter: what is the relationship between proper thematic support and high replayability by WotC standards? I have a premonition that some Riptiders will lose points to perceived lower replayability due to our pronounced theme construction and liberal duplicates usage.
I will add my main cube almost 100% with the exception of conspiracies that probably doesn't work in MTGO and all of the un-cards.
My plan is to have duplicates in there and if they like my cube, i don't think they won't pick it because of duplicates because they said the winners will be discussing tweaks with their team. If they disliked the duplicates they can be tweaked later on.
Now i'm at the spot of thinking what i should write about my cube, it's so damn hard. How deep should i go with my analysis on the cube? Just the surface or go more deeper on the branches of strategies in each color.... 500 words could have both ends of the spectrum i guess.
My plan is to have duplicates in there and if they like my cube, i don't think they won't pick it because of duplicates because they said the winners will be discussing tweaks with their team. If they disliked the duplicates they can be tweaked later on.
Now i'm at the spot of thinking what i should write about my cube, it's so damn hard. How deep should i go with my analysis on the cube? Just the surface or go more deeper on the branches of strategies in each color.... 500 words could have both ends of the spectrum i guess.
Man, I didn't even think of it before, but should you break singleton in a situation like this? There is a substantial portion of the Magic population that believes breaking singleton makes it not a cube anymore. It's why I haven't broken singleton in mine: not that I care, but some of the folks I play with do, and it's easier to get people to actually play that way.
I haven't seen a player in here that rejects a cube session because my cube had duplicates. Some people will say that they don't do it in their cube, but that's it.
Dom Harvey
Contributor
If your goal is to get WotC to accept your Cube, you should absolutely not break singleton.
Well, on the other hand, there's this from the man at the top himself: http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/88766854758/would-you-say-the-conspiracies-with-hidden-agenda
Having said that I get the impression that Mark Rosewater probably wouldn't be very deeply involved with the judging if at all, and so the submission I'm working on is singleton. I'm expanding out the graveyard cube that I've had on CubeTutor for a couple of years and never played a match of.
Having said that I get the impression that Mark Rosewater probably wouldn't be very deeply involved with the judging if at all, and so the submission I'm working on is singleton. I'm expanding out the graveyard cube that I've had on CubeTutor for a couple of years and never played a match of.
I read the competition this morning, and while I still think it is just a way for Wizards to compensate for their 'failure' of the Legendary Cube, this could be a great opportunity for our community to show what we are made of.
I have been thinking about this all the while during work and decided to lay out what we should be focusing on. This is a combination of what is on the competition entry form and previous WoTC cube implementations.
Submission Date
September 15, 2016
This gives us 3 weeks. We should start working now, if we want to submit something polished
Restrictions
Judging Criteria
So there are 4 areas of judging criteria that they have laid out. I have decided that Feasibility isn't really something they can grade you on, it is more of a 'yes or no' scale, so I threw it up into the restrictions, as if the cube is and slightly bit questionable on the feasibility it won't make the cut. The other three are:
While it can be fine and dandy trying to make something that the wizards team will appreciate, it is harder to create something that people will be enticed by. Take random MTGO Joe Blow; he only plays MTGO to cube, as that is the only way he can play with high powered splashy cards that he can't in real life. This is where I feel like a 540 Penny Pincher would fail. I know I would be game to draft it, but average Joe Blow would look at the list (or maybe just the first pack) see all these medium to low powered cards and wonder what the point of all of this is when he could have just grinded another 8-4 EMN draft.
Conclusions
From all the ideas suggested in the thread so far, I think Safra's suggestion of a high powered bounceland format, the Eldrazi Domain (as long as we don't overly singleton-break when bloating it up to 540) and Aston's Graveyard Cube are the best chances.
I am willing to help out with any submissions (ideas, cubetutor drafts, etc.). Hopefully we can get one cube into the finals!
I have been thinking about this all the while during work and decided to lay out what we should be focusing on. This is a combination of what is on the competition entry form and previous WoTC cube implementations.
Submission Date
September 15, 2016
This gives us 3 weeks. We should start working now, if we want to submit something polished
Restrictions
- 540 Cards
- Playable MTGO Cards up to Eldritch Moon (No customs
) - Cards are randomly assigned to packs from the cube pool (So no funky evolving wilds in every pack things. Also means that the Desert Cube doesn't stand a chance. This is discussed in the Feasibility section of the judging criteria)
Judging Criteria
So there are 4 areas of judging criteria that they have laid out. I have decided that Feasibility isn't really something they can grade you on, it is more of a 'yes or no' scale, so I threw it up into the restrictions, as if the cube is and slightly bit questionable on the feasibility it won't make the cut. The other three are:
Creativity
I find it strange that they mentioned the Legendary Cube, considering it was considered a failure, but anyway, this just means we can't make a standard 540 unpowered list (Legacy Cube), 540 powered list (Vintage Cube) or a confusing EDH style battlecruiser cube (Legendary Cube). This shouldn't be too much of a problem for the community here, as I think that is all why we came here in the first place, to design cubes that break the norm.
I also don't think you need to be too out there to have a chance. I mean, something as simple as a 'Modern Cube' is probably creative enough for WotC it will be the other criteria that determine if it will get selected or not. I will hark back on the Legendary Cube train, as it was creative, but people didn't find it fun (apparently, I mean, I thought it was great) and thus didn't really survive. Which leads nicely into the next criteria...
Fun
My first thought as a cube idea that might go well with the general public is a 'combo cube', just nothing but piles of combo pieces. Since everyone is always so hyped up for vintage cube. This judging criteria makes me think that it isn't such a good idea anymore
The main idea they are trying to give away here is to have a wide array of archetypes so that every player can find a deck that they are happy to draft and play. This is where the Legendary Cube failed, as there was no aggro deck that could be found (in it's obvious state anyway), too many slow clunky combos and where every draft pretty much ended up in 3-colour goodstuff piles. There was no mono-red trying to beat storm, no reanimator grinding against UW control, the variety wasn't there.
Replayability
Here is where a wide range of archetypes and play styles come into play. Having more options allows for more replayability later on. Throwing something like Laboratory Maniac and Doomsday in would help in this field as a small two-card combo hidden in the giant cube would be a fun little divergent to go into if you haven't been there before (as long as you have other uses for those cards).
This also my be where aggressive singleton breaking might come undone, as having so many of the same cards reduces the 'fresh cards' in the card pool and it will feel like people are drafting the same decks over and over. While I do fully believe that Wizards will have at least half the finalists breaking singleton, I don't think they will be breaking it much. Maybe just on triple fetchlands or something (40 evolving wilds?!). This is also where I feel the Eldrazi Domain 540 cube may struggle, as trying to get the multiblade aggro deck to come together would require alot of those tri-colour two drops to be in at 540 and I think it will severely dampen the replayability. There is a fine line between giving enough support for an archetype and it appearing in every draft, and at 540, I am not entirely sure where that point lies.
The AudienceWhile it can be fine and dandy trying to make something that the wizards team will appreciate, it is harder to create something that people will be enticed by. Take random MTGO Joe Blow; he only plays MTGO to cube, as that is the only way he can play with high powered splashy cards that he can't in real life. This is where I feel like a 540 Penny Pincher would fail. I know I would be game to draft it, but average Joe Blow would look at the list (or maybe just the first pack) see all these medium to low powered cards and wonder what the point of all of this is when he could have just grinded another 8-4 EMN draft.
Conclusions
- Goddamn, we are not used to building 540 cubes.
- Don't try to do anything fancy with packs
- Don't submit cubes similar to the Legacy, Vintage and Legendary cubes (duh)
- Make sure that there are lot of different paths that each colour/colour pairing can take
- Don't aggressively singleton break
- Needs to be splashy enough to entice people to actually play it
From all the ideas suggested in the thread so far, I think Safra's suggestion of a high powered bounceland format, the Eldrazi Domain (as long as we don't overly singleton-break when bloating it up to 540) and Aston's Graveyard Cube are the best chances.
I am willing to help out with any submissions (ideas, cubetutor drafts, etc.). Hopefully we can get one cube into the finals!
All of us here have in our own ways been doing our own research on what can work in cube. We've all had successes and failures with random archetypes or cards or combos or whatever. So what if we built a big list of successful themes we've had, then look at which ones we can overlap and make a coherent cube with. I'll start:
Decks I know work from my own cube:
Decks I know work from my own cube:
- UR spells matter tempo: low curve, bounce, very efficient low drops (Young Pyromancer, Stromkirk Noble, Delver of Secrets, Snapcaster Mage, Monastery Swiftspear...)
- BUG Self-mill (Sidisi, Brood Tyrant, Golgari Grave-Troll, Life from the Loam.... I think other people know how to make this work better than me)
- RGw +1/+1 counter aggro (Experiment One, Stromkirk Noble, Gore-House Chainwalker and friends, ION STORM woop woop)
- ------> crosses over with human aggro in white (Champion of the Parish, Thalia's Lieutenant, Abzan Falconer, other human weenies)
- Birthing Pod! I suck at drafting this, but this is the kind of deck where the drafting can be better than the playing for some people. It's so fun to assemble, and breaking singleton on birthing pod means you can go all in on it.
- UB tempo (Got wrecked by this once, didn't even know it was an archetype. Disruption, counterspells, and threats I couldn't fight: Thoughtseize, Nezumi Shortfang, Hymn to Tourach, Cryptic Command, Wydwen, the Biting Gale)
Ugh, Eldrazi Domain just doesn't work at 540 without singleton breaking. I think it's a really fun cube, and it's been a blast to draft, but I really need some input.
Here is me trying to get to 540: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...UEEmtHLv_KO-u7QWaZaNqWlgw/edit#gid=1640831226
Columns 1 and 2 are the 360, Column 3 is 361-540. Any and all input appreciated.
Here is me trying to get to 540: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...UEEmtHLv_KO-u7QWaZaNqWlgw/edit#gid=1640831226
Columns 1 and 2 are the 360, Column 3 is 361-540. Any and all input appreciated.
Grillo, anyone else, feel free to make a thread here in Cube Talk for any 540 cube adaptations. Normally this stuff goes in Cube Blogs, but I think it'll get more traffic here.
I have been reading the comments in reddit in regards to the contest and by far the most asked question is 'Can we break singleton'. To which is always replies in some form of:
You can see they were really being 'creative' with the Legendary Cube (RIP).
I'm not going to overly dilute the E Domain design so that archetypes don't work. I'll try to make a draft 540 on Saturday, will put it up on a CT list. In fact, if people could draft it and play games against me on MODO, that would be fantastic. I'll buy the cards as we need them.
I'm in, assuming Aus and Eu time-zones match up. I certainly do hope so.
Is there an easy way to know which cards on on MODO?
e.g.
e.g.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
2 things:
1) Singleton-breaking seems best if the framework behind it can be quickly summarized and the total number of unique cards is fairly high. Somethings like: multiples of early interactive cards (3x Mana Leak over Mana Leak/Daze/Miscalc, 3 Inquisition of Kozilek over Duress/Inquis/Thoughtseize, 3 Pillar of Flame over Pillar/Firebolt/Forked Bolt, etc.) to create some stability in interactions; mana-fixing multiples of lands(/spells?) of which the environment is built upon, non-haymaker archetype linchpins (Birthing Pod, Gravecrawler, Frantic Search, Astral Slide). Lands seems like the least egregious place to break singleton with abandon.
2) I was talking with a friend about this contest last night and an idea came up:
1) Singleton-breaking seems best if the framework behind it can be quickly summarized and the total number of unique cards is fairly high. Somethings like: multiples of early interactive cards (3x Mana Leak over Mana Leak/Daze/Miscalc, 3 Inquisition of Kozilek over Duress/Inquis/Thoughtseize, 3 Pillar of Flame over Pillar/Firebolt/Forked Bolt, etc.) to create some stability in interactions; mana-fixing multiples of lands(/spells?) of which the environment is built upon, non-haymaker archetype linchpins (Birthing Pod, Gravecrawler, Frantic Search, Astral Slide). Lands seems like the least egregious place to break singleton with abandon.
2) I was talking with a friend about this contest last night and an idea came up:
Include non-Ancestral Recall (non-Lotus?) power but have an overall power level similar to Penny Pincher.
It seems like the lure of drafting a Mox Jet or a Time Walk could really bump up the fun value of casting Vital Splicers. Personally, in such an environment, I would 'fight the power' through more colored mana symbols in casting costs, incidental artifact destruction, slightly cheaper removal than threats and less easily castable card advantage. Well, I'm going to type it: maybe double moxen is a real consideration for this contest.
Don't forget to throw me a list of things you need in case I have them, just to save you some coin
They generally do. Jason and I seem to play against each other fairly often. If not I can play against you with the E Domain decks.
Is there an easy way to know which cards on on MODO?
e.g.
Just search for the card at http://www.mtgotraders.com/ and see if it has a price? I don't know, seemd the easiest option I can think of. Also, yes that card exists and is a sweet 0.02 tix.
Fuck it.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Also, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic:_The_Gathering_Online#Card_sets_available
Seems like the draft-affecting cards from Conspiracy (1 and 2) are a no-no, as are the ante cards, and several bad filler cards you are probably not running anyway.
Seems like the draft-affecting cards from Conspiracy (1 and 2) are a no-no, as are the ante cards, and several bad filler cards you are probably not running anyway.
I disagree. In a normal set, this approach is a good thing. Having only a few removal spells means you know what to play around. But in cube, variety and randomness (for lack of a better word) is a plus for a lot of people. I like lots of variety, and I'm sure I'm not alone. Also, rather than learning what to play around in a format, you still get to learn what to play around against each opponent, and if you can remember what was in the draft, that will help you too. I think variety is one reason people love cube so much. One of the selling points of EDH for me was "you never have the same game twice!" Even though that turned out to be wrong for EDH, I still think variety in a format is very attractive.
On the other hand, I'm totally in favour of making these kind of choices in line with themes. So I wouldn't run 3x mana leak over leak, daze, miscalc, just to simplify the format, but I would absolutely run 3x evasive action if I was supporting multicolor/domain themes. Similarly, choosing a suite of discard spells makes a difference to reanimator decks. If I ran multiple Thoughtseizes instead of inquisitions, that would help reanimator. Pillar of Flame is important to have around if there's a zombie deck to fight, or you could choose forked bolt if I want to help fight token strategies.
So what I'm saying is, I think loss of variety is NOT a positive thing in cube, but if it helps encourage/fight themes, the benefits can outweigh the loss.