General The Draft Exchange

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
To be fair, WotC is still going to curate this list, right? So Klug's submission isn't necessarily what'll end up on MTGO. They still get a chance to, somewhat, fix their mistakes ;) Also, we shoud never forget that the number one rule of cubing is that almost any cube can entertain. Even if though there were better much better submissions, I'm sure Klug's effort can still provide a satistfactory experience to the average Magic player.

Still sad Jason's cube didn't make it though, that was my favorite one to draft out of all RTL's submissions.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Thats the most comedic part about this entire debacle though. How do you fix Klug's submission? You cut a bunch of the narrow cards, increase fixing density, and than begin narrowing the power band, which invariably means tweaking things upwards to legacy cube power level. Otherwise you end up having to gut and redesign the entire thing.

And the final product? Another, probably worse, variant of the legacy cube--which goes against the entire purpose of having the contest in the first place!
 
The only other conceivable way I can think of performing this rework would be to scrap some of the decks, and focus support for the remaining ones, generate cross-deck support, etc. Maybe that just is the same as the change Grillo explains, but I'd think there'd be an 'interesting' way to go about it.
 
Why in everything holy's name did he exclude Sideboards?? That would have added another couple hundred cards that support the decks they were meant for.... Restrictions in this case just breed bad design.

(Let's not even talk about how much I dislike that phrase. There's a word missing: useful restrictions breed creativity)
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Thats a really good topic for discussion. I've strayed away from it because its one of those topics where people are going to view it as you talking at them rather then to them, but yeah, for example I hate giant card patches. All they do generally is add novelty to a format, and subtract from that process of slowly and incrementally refining the format to be what it wants to be. I feel the same way about inserting broad themes or archetypes on a whim.

I understand the novelty of new cards, and the desire to keep a format from becoming stale over time, but I would rather just design a second cube, and let each of them provide a unique experience.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Drafted Terminus' pauper cube (at 360), and it gets my approval.

RUG tempo from CubeTutor.com












U/W Flyers (tempo) from CubeTutor.com












U/G/b from CubeTutor.com












The first thing I check with peasant lists is if there is uzumawa's jitte, and mercifully it wasn't there. Draft felt fine, though the AI has no idea what its doing, and kept on letting FTK wheel.

Fixing seemed acceptable, having the 10 signets really helped in that regard. Of course, I was also first and second picking bouncelands, because I can't help myself. Had a nice refined feel to the numbers of fixing, like the numbers had been arrived at after a lot of drafts. This relationship though will break down when the format is scaled up to 540, without more raw land fixing.

Overall postitive experience, some thoughts:

Would have liked to have seen some buffs in green:




Much of the vertical growth seems to come from equipment, and maybe given green (or white) conditional counters would be too good for the format, but I like being able to suit up the low toughness non-evasive threats from blue (aka ninja of the deep hours) to pound in. Really helps refine U/Gs identity.

Really missed




Afraid of gush ramp?




I imagine these are deliberate exclusions, most notably the absence of:



And flicker effects in general.



Kind of surprised at the absence of rancor, but inclusion of mother of runes, cloudgoat ranger, avalanche riders, and flametongue kavu.

Blue is really good, of course, so maybe no reason to make it better:





Feels really hard to not slam first pick those, and kind of suspect blue might have a disproportionate amount of first picks. Also the option of promoting a U/B tempo deck with a couple black evasive 2 drops, something like heir of falkenrath. Only card I really hated the inclusion of was speedway fanatic.

Overall looks like a solid cube though.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
This is why I don't think most formats need rares:

URW Tempo from CubeTutor.com












Surely, the games they deck runs aren't going to be qualitatively different than those of many more expensive rare formats. This is the same formula of good value cards without deep synergy other than the macro level strategies that the color combinations naturally trend towards. You can't even say that most of the cards that make it up aren't powerful. I certainly don't think something like the vastly more expensive legacy cube is operating on a materially different axis.
 
I scrolled through the list hoping to see a singleton squadron hawk.

- Dragonstorm
- Demonic Consultation
- Donate
- Illusions of Grandeur

+4 Squadron Hawk

Fixed

Edit: Posted this on the wrong thread somehow, was supposed to be in the Cube Contest thread ._.
 
Drafted Grillo's Penny Pincher, ended up with the following:

Jeskai Blink from CubeTutor.com












P1P1 splashy removal in Faith's Fetters because I was unsure of payoffs within the cube (haven't checked out the list in a long time). Didn't really see anything that caught my eye for a few early picks so I settled with lands mostly and was thinking of something control-y (usually my default in cubes I'm not super familiar with). But then I saw more of the bounce theme with certain cards and moved in. Galepowder Mage was probably the first signal of the theme and then I started valuing the cheaper bounce effects more highly along with whatever decent ETBs I saw. I needed a finisher later and Niv-Mizzet came around my way so it came together pretty nicely.
 
Drafted Shamizy's cubeNever should have passed that pod...

JustJund from CubeTutor.com













After a first pick DRS I dove straight into a deep dark oozy pit of jund. I was initially skeptical about the gold card density, but fixing seems pretty plentiful, and I like the tension between possible splashes versus committing to CC cards in you primary colors. I really appreciate the cohesiveness of this list, and I never once felt like a card was out of place or poorly considered.​
However, I can't imagine delver is good, and picking up enough waste mana cards to be worth fixing for seems pretty unrealistic.
I'm curious how often people are drafting heavy synergy decks. For instance: how often does a dedicated delirium deck come together? Do you mostly see value Deathcap Cultivator decks like mine? Or are people Really getting their Promised End on?​
Also, there's nothing like picking up Punishing Fire ->Grove of the burnwillows back to back...​
 
Drafted Shamizy's cubeNever should have passed that pod...

After a first pick DRS I dove straight into a deep dark oozy pit of jund. I was initially skeptical about the gold card density, but fixing seems pretty plentiful, and I like the tension between possible splashes versus committing to CC cards in you primary colors. I really appreciate the cohesiveness of this list, and I never once felt like a card was out of place or poorly considered.​
However, I can't imagine delver is good, and picking up enough waste mana cards to be worth fixing for seems pretty unrealistic.
I'm curious how often people are drafting heavy synergy decks. For instance: how often does a dedicated delirium deck come together? Do you mostly see value Deathcap Cultivator decks like mine? Or are people Really getting their Promised End on?​
Also, there's nothing like picking up Punishing Fire ->Grove of the burnwillows back to back...​

Thanks! I'll admit that Delver is a bit of a relic here and only shines within the UR Spells deck that comes together every now and then. Being a 420 list, it's not within the draft pool every time so I'm not as worried about it.

Ah yes, Waste mana is an interesting topic and one I've thought about quite a bit. Initially, I had bumped my cube up to 450 this summer to allow for more room to flesh out certain archetypes with Eldrazi being a theme. The issue then became a dilution of effects throughout the cube. Seeing only 360 (at most 375 via Lore Seeker) of a 450 left it way too open to missing key pieces and payoffs for certain archetypes. I've since shaved it down to 420 where I've had the most success employing archetypes and themes with enough variance and depth to be functional.



These are the only creatures that care for a colorless source, and the ones that you might go out of your way splashing for are likely just the Thought-Knot, Displacer, and perhaps Smasher. Bearer and Obligator are merely payoff cards within aggressive B/R decks giving their best impressions of Gatekeeper of Malakir and Zealous Conscripts if you really want it. Their bases cases of Vampire Interloper for 2 and 3/1 hasty for 3 are passable in those decks. Finally, the World Breaker is just a fine ramp target even if you never end up getting to rebuy it from the grave. A 5/7 reach is a major roadblock and being able to shoot down one of their fixing pieces is pretty big game. Newzilek was originally in this cube, but I saw after a few drafts that it just wasn't high impact enough nor worth subverting your mana base to support. There just wasn't a critical mass of cards to make it viable at the time, maybe it's worth looking at again in the future but as of right now it's just a shitty value reanimation target.

To reliably make use of the colorless kicker or cost on some of these, I feel like you need to splash for 3 sources of colorless within your deck. Within the main 420 list I have the following available that produce colorless/allow you to fetch a colorless source:



Within the Utility Land Draft, I've since moved Wastelands as a squadron pick of 3 (using up all of your draft picks), since it's likely that it'll just be aggressive W/B or R/x Aggro decks that can maximize the value of that much land destruction as they stay low to the ground and apply pressure. It's a powerful effect when you have a density of it within your pool, but seeing just a single Wasteland within a draft is such a shitty feeling. Alongside it in the ULD we have an Evolving Wilds and Terramorphic Expanse as the only other sources of multi-color fetching, Cavern of Souls, Phyrexian Tower, Mutavault, High Market, a handful of the Innistrad block dual color activated lands (Gavony Township, Nephalia Drownyard, etc.) and others. With all of these sources, there's usually enough ways for someone who really wants to maximize the value of their Eldrazi to do so.

Emrakul, the Promised End is just an excellent card even without being able to cheat fully on the cost. Ramp decks will want it as a late game finisher, it's a fine reanimation target early, and obviously it's a major payoff if you build a deck based around the graveyard or with a plethora of looting effects. The base case I've seen for it has been around 8-9 mana which I think is just fine for something that will likely end the game in 2 turns or so.

Finally, synergy decks ARE very possible if players draft with an eye to it, though many of my drafters just decide to go for generically strong cards the majority of the time. The delirium patch is relatively recent within the last few month, haven't had much of a chance to draft, but through all of my testing on Cubetutor and theorycrafting it should be viable. In the last few months I've been tinkering here and there to get rid of more generically strong cards and put in slightly weaker variants that can be utilized within synergy driven lists. We'll see just how viable they are the next time I can organize a draft.

Hopefully this answered all your questions!
 
I need time to digest this post, and respond more fully. But on this point:​
Emrakul, the Promised End is just an excellent card even without being able to cheat fully on the cost. Ramp decks will want it as a late game finisher, it's a fine reanimation target early, and obviously it's a major payoff if you build a deck based around the graveyard or with a plethora of looting effects. The base case I've seen for it has been around 8-9 mana which I think is just fine for something that will likely end the game in 2 turns or so.​
Itwasrightinfrontofmeallalalong
I am fully persuaded. I hadn't really considered The Promised End for my cube yet, and it actually sounds like a perfect fit. There's a lot of versatility that I wasn't seeing.​
I like that Emrakul is good with looting on multiple axes in a similar way to Life From The Loam. In addition to benefiting from looting effects, they are both excellent choices to be discarded themselves. My cube has multiple Thirst for Knowledges and that's a pretty real combo...​
Also slavering people is sweet.OhSoSweet
I also like that sometimes you have to respect:​
 
Your Cube is always fun to draft! I don't have a Pod addiction, I swear...



Curious about: Skywhaler's Shot, Scour the Laboratory, Kozilek (which felt unrealistic even in the ramp decks)

Thanks for drafting! I've never seen a Boros Pod deck and that Aristocrats list looks like straight gas.

Skywhaler's Shot was a card that I initially didn't even pay attention to until I saw LSV's Limited review where he gave it a pretty high rating. And after playing with it twice through prerelease and a draft, I have to say that it's a great card. It's so sweet being able to shoot down a threat and then be able to scry into your next possible play, be that another removal spell or a way to start applying board pressure. Looking at my list, it hits around 79/182 creatures, maybe 3-4 more depending on how big certain threats grow (like Champion of the Parish or Scavenging Ooze). Just giving it a try for now, but I think this one might actually stick.

Scour the Laboratory was part of my delirium patch from the summer but I haven't really seen it in action much. Theoretically, it shouldn't be that difficult to get it off even in just a regular blue control deck with the number of looters available in that color. Getting a land and instant is trivial, maybe a little more work to get that sorcery, and combat is a major function in most cubes so I don't think it'll be too difficult to hit the necessary 4. Maybe not by turn 4 (at which point you'll probably be firing off a wrath or a stabilizing walker), but I could see it as a reasonable T5 or T6 play during the opponent's turn. In all honesty though, if we get enough good energy enablers in Aether Revolt, I'll probably be swapping it out for the Scry 2, Draw 2, Get 2 Energy card from KLD.

Finally, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth is a ramp payoff if you go heavily into that archetype, but more secretly just a way to not deck and kill yourself if you build the Sidisi self-mill deck. I remember a friend of mine drafting it like a year back in a Sultai Pod list with Sidisi and just having no fear at all of swinging in all night long because he knew that he had a reset button. Allowed him to fire off his removal at will as well. I've been eyeing Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary as a mono-green super ramp card for a while now, might try him out sometime if I snag a copy in the near future. Kozilek might be more appealing if Aetherworks Marvel makes its way into the cube in a few months, we'll just have to see what happens there.
 

Dom Harvey

Contributor
oh I probably should have explained that lol

those (and the fetches) are placeholders for 'shockland of your choice' and 'fetchland of your choice'
 
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