These changes look cool, very happy to see the triad go! But selenia seems a bit underwhelming. How do you feel about
The Penny Pincher Cube (360)
- Thread starter Grillo_Parlante
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Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
So begins, the great orzhov debate of 2016.
Criteria for entry:
Multi-color cards are supposed to resemble somewhat the experience of opening a rare in a pack, so something to get excited about, a bit pushed, perhaps suggesting certain internal cube synergies.
Currently, we have
The third BW card has been a struggle to find.
Angel of Despair: Way too pushed i.m.o.
Blind Hunter: Too boring? Has Haunt, which is clunky. Provides lifegain.
Maw of the Obzedat: Token decks aren't casting 5cc spells, black really isn't a tokens color
Obzedat's Aid: too boring?
orzhov pontiff: Too $$$, haunt is clunky, never works out like I want
Selenia, Dark Angel: Too much like windreaver? Requires life pay
Sentry of the Underworld: Too boring? Regen is a nice effect to have, requires life pay. Kind of a slightly pushed serra angel. Too obnoxious of a board presence?
debtors' knell: Way too pushed i.m.o.
Treasury Thrull: Was in the cube at one point. I took it out for reasons that I don't really remember, but I think it came down to it being too slow. Though it did make peoples' final 40.
Opinions?
Criteria for entry:
Multi-color cards are supposed to resemble somewhat the experience of opening a rare in a pack, so something to get excited about, a bit pushed, perhaps suggesting certain internal cube synergies.
Currently, we have
The third BW card has been a struggle to find.
Angel of Despair: Way too pushed i.m.o.
Blind Hunter: Too boring? Has Haunt, which is clunky. Provides lifegain.
Maw of the Obzedat: Token decks aren't casting 5cc spells, black really isn't a tokens color
Obzedat's Aid: too boring?
orzhov pontiff: Too $$$, haunt is clunky, never works out like I want
Selenia, Dark Angel: Too much like windreaver? Requires life pay
Sentry of the Underworld: Too boring? Regen is a nice effect to have, requires life pay. Kind of a slightly pushed serra angel. Too obnoxious of a board presence?
debtors' knell: Way too pushed i.m.o.
Treasury Thrull: Was in the cube at one point. I took it out for reasons that I don't really remember, but I think it came down to it being too slow. Though it did make peoples' final 40.
Opinions?
There aren't a lot of great options are there? I quite like the thrull, but if it's not working for you then maybe
I have no idea re $$ though. Utter end might be good?
I have no idea re $$ though. Utter end might be good?
Some additional ideas, ranging from boring to not supported to pushing overpowered:
Karlov would complete your Orzhov lore theme...
Sentry may just be better than the archangel (due to vigilance allowing it better attacks during crucial stabilization period). A lot of your removal kills the Sentry, though. And it doesn not meet your excitement criterion. How many games have periods where both players get into top decks? Dark Angel seems like she'd shine in those matches (or could help create those situations).
Karlov would complete your Orzhov lore theme...
Sentry may just be better than the archangel (due to vigilance allowing it better attacks during crucial stabilization period). A lot of your removal kills the Sentry, though. And it doesn not meet your excitement criterion. How many games have periods where both players get into top decks? Dark Angel seems like she'd shine in those matches (or could help create those situations).
Magister of worth is crazy good overpowered, especially with blink!
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I think I'm going to stick to selenia for now. A lot of the gatherer comments are raging about how she is a strong card, but not as good as angel of despair or angel of desolation, which sounds about right where I want to be.
So I am going to break this stream of Orzhov suggestions and go back to what I promised over a week ago and tell you about the cards that I thought under-performed during my grid-drafts.
Underperformers
Somber Hoverguard - This was probably just a bad inclusion on my part as I always had to cast it for 5-6 and it kept dying to everything in the air. Might also suffer from the grid draft process as well due to not being able to obtain artifact density.
Krosan Restorer - I can see the appeal and I understand what it can accomplish. I just never did any of these things in the game I saw it in. The main appeal I would think is to go from 3 mana on turn 3 to 6 mana on turn 4 with a bounceland. The problem was all the decks it was in didn't have this higher end to take advantage of this. Probably more build errors, I was just sad to see this card of great potential to nothing but chump block and die.
Juggernaut - I don't think it ever came out in Modin's deck. In my BG graveyard deck I had it in my hand several times but it was just better discarding it to get something better. That was probably just due to the high quality card I had in that deck. Galvanic Juggernaut on the other hand was so great whenever I saw it (but it was in different decks). I guess that 5 toughness is so hard to get to so it is just an abyss half the time. Juggernaut dies to so many more things (nearly every burn spell). I really like the card (and shouting the name) but maybe its time has come.
Ambush Viper - Another victim of poor circumstance. I always think of this as the green doom blade, but it never got to remove a creature I wanted. Probably as this was always in the aggro deck. So there was never an opportunity to block. Just flash it in at end of turn and use it as a 2/1 beater you don't want to block. Not saying it was a bad card. Just never did what I always expect ti to do.
Other than that, I can't really think of anything else. There were a lot more cards I liked playing with that I didn't add to the list before. I didn't want to keep writing forever though
Since I am going on this tirade of cards that I didn't like, I am going to point out some cards that I don't like/understand that are in the cube and see if you can give me some justification on them.
Are these cards good?
Triclopean Sight - Only because you mentioned to me that you had the counter argument as to why this card should stay
Mangara of Corondor - How has this guy been. I can see he is a sort of flicker support, but your instant speed flicker is minimal. Is it worth having a guy as an oblivion ring?
Cloudfin Raptor - Don't understand the deck he fits into.
Courier's Capsule - Generally gets popped straight away. Unsure why this can't be something else. Buried Ruin interaction? It doesn't really work for metalcraft or even affinity really.
Cadaver Imp - I love raise dead effects, but your three drop density in black is high. I don't know if being a 1/1 flyer is relevant but the BB cost sure is. Maybe this would be just better as a Gravedigger. A 2/2 body in this format seems relevant enough.
Keldon Marauders - What deck is this for? Flicker? Burn? I've been getting turned off this guy for a while now. I just feel there are two-drops with more play.
Thunderscape Familiar - The other familiars I can understand (combo) does this one support anything? What have you seen it do in action?
Utopia Sprawl - Whenever I drafted it I never thought I had a high enough density of forests to make it work. The large amount of non-basics limit its usage. Is this fixing? Ramp? Can it be swapped for something less restrictive?
Reclaim - I keep calling this 'not a real card' to people who try to play it in standard. I don't mind Noxious Revival though, so I don't know what is wrong with me. Why can't something like Recollect be used (curiosities sake).
Savra, Queen of the Golgari - For some reason I keep thinking that the cards you are going to sacrifice are either red or white (the token producers), which neuters this card. I can see this card as blow-out potential, but BG doesn't seem like the 'sacrifice' archetype.
That is all that I can see from a decent look over the entire list. Hopefully it gives you something to mull over. Most of these are nitpicks or personal preferences because the list is pretty solid.
Underperformers
Somber Hoverguard - This was probably just a bad inclusion on my part as I always had to cast it for 5-6 and it kept dying to everything in the air. Might also suffer from the grid draft process as well due to not being able to obtain artifact density.
Krosan Restorer - I can see the appeal and I understand what it can accomplish. I just never did any of these things in the game I saw it in. The main appeal I would think is to go from 3 mana on turn 3 to 6 mana on turn 4 with a bounceland. The problem was all the decks it was in didn't have this higher end to take advantage of this. Probably more build errors, I was just sad to see this card of great potential to nothing but chump block and die.
Juggernaut - I don't think it ever came out in Modin's deck. In my BG graveyard deck I had it in my hand several times but it was just better discarding it to get something better. That was probably just due to the high quality card I had in that deck. Galvanic Juggernaut on the other hand was so great whenever I saw it (but it was in different decks). I guess that 5 toughness is so hard to get to so it is just an abyss half the time. Juggernaut dies to so many more things (nearly every burn spell). I really like the card (and shouting the name) but maybe its time has come.
Ambush Viper - Another victim of poor circumstance. I always think of this as the green doom blade, but it never got to remove a creature I wanted. Probably as this was always in the aggro deck. So there was never an opportunity to block. Just flash it in at end of turn and use it as a 2/1 beater you don't want to block. Not saying it was a bad card. Just never did what I always expect ti to do.
Other than that, I can't really think of anything else. There were a lot more cards I liked playing with that I didn't add to the list before. I didn't want to keep writing forever though
Since I am going on this tirade of cards that I didn't like, I am going to point out some cards that I don't like/understand that are in the cube and see if you can give me some justification on them.
Are these cards good?
Triclopean Sight - Only because you mentioned to me that you had the counter argument as to why this card should stay
Mangara of Corondor - How has this guy been. I can see he is a sort of flicker support, but your instant speed flicker is minimal. Is it worth having a guy as an oblivion ring?
Cloudfin Raptor - Don't understand the deck he fits into.
Courier's Capsule - Generally gets popped straight away. Unsure why this can't be something else. Buried Ruin interaction? It doesn't really work for metalcraft or even affinity really.
Cadaver Imp - I love raise dead effects, but your three drop density in black is high. I don't know if being a 1/1 flyer is relevant but the BB cost sure is. Maybe this would be just better as a Gravedigger. A 2/2 body in this format seems relevant enough.
Keldon Marauders - What deck is this for? Flicker? Burn? I've been getting turned off this guy for a while now. I just feel there are two-drops with more play.
Thunderscape Familiar - The other familiars I can understand (combo) does this one support anything? What have you seen it do in action?
Utopia Sprawl - Whenever I drafted it I never thought I had a high enough density of forests to make it work. The large amount of non-basics limit its usage. Is this fixing? Ramp? Can it be swapped for something less restrictive?
Reclaim - I keep calling this 'not a real card' to people who try to play it in standard. I don't mind Noxious Revival though, so I don't know what is wrong with me. Why can't something like Recollect be used (curiosities sake).
Savra, Queen of the Golgari - For some reason I keep thinking that the cards you are going to sacrifice are either red or white (the token producers), which neuters this card. I can see this card as blow-out potential, but BG doesn't seem like the 'sacrifice' archetype.
That is all that I can see from a decent look over the entire list. Hopefully it gives you something to mull over. Most of these are nitpicks or personal preferences because the list is pretty solid.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Keldon Marauders is a player only burn spell, not a creature
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
This is a fun post. Let me give a brief breakdown of each card. I kept your format, and my thoughts will be in blue, which I hope won't be difficult to read.
Underperformers
Somber Hoverguard - This was probably just a bad inclusion on my part as I always had to cast it for 5-6 and it kept dying to everything in the air. Might also suffer from the grid draft process as well due to not being able to obtain artifact density.
TBH he usually has been an under performer, and generally you will only discount it 1-2, but there is something oddly endearing about the card. Its just so very mediocre, but has just enough synergy where it can squeeze into a final 40. Its kind of in this weird spot where I could cut it without hurting the list, but I don't feel any real impetus to do so. I would describe it as a low priority pick, something you run to fill out a deck, but never really essential.
Krosan Restorer - I can see the appeal and I understand what it can accomplish. I just never did any of these things in the game I saw it in. The main appeal I would think is to go from 3 mana on turn 3 to 6 mana on turn 4 with a bounceland. The problem was all the decks it was in didn't have this higher end to take advantage of this. Probably more build errors, I was just sad to see this card of great potential to nothing but chump block and die.
The other use that these cards fill that you didn't get to see, was color fixing. You can use restorer to be CC requirements. Its other big appeal is that it can produce consistent mana bursts over time, which creates two contrasting ways to ramp in the format. You can take the "burst" approach with cloud of faeries style cards, or a more consistent approach with untappers like restorer or voyaging satyr. These cards also synergize with creature untap effects like quirion and scryb ranger. These types of builds tend to work better with mana sink based ramp, which is a nice contrast to just burst ramping out fatties.
Its a little expensive at 3 mana to come down, and voyaging satry is probably more consistent, but I like the diversity it brings, as well as the higher ceiling.
Juggernaut - I don't think it ever came out in Modin's deck. In my BG graveyard deck I had it in my hand several times but it was just better discarding it to get something better. That was probably just due to the high quality card I had in that deck. Galvanic Juggernaut on the other hand was so great whenever I saw it (but it was in different decks). I guess that 5 toughness is so hard to get to so it is just an abyss half the time. Juggernaut dies to so many more things (nearly every burn spell). I really like the card (and shouting the name) but maybe its time has come.
We talked a little bit about this, and I'm open to opinions. Juggernaut itself is fine, but i.m.o the issue is more that a similar (and more interesting) card exists in the form of Galvanic Juggernaut, for a slot that doesn't really need an increase in density. It does consistently make final 40s, and sees play.
I was toying with the idea of trisk; but this is another card that I don't feel any pressing need to cut, but could be cut if it made sense to do so.
Ambush Viper - Another victim of poor circumstance. I always think of this as the green doom blade, but it never got to remove a creature I wanted. Probably as this was always in the aggro deck. So there was never an opportunity to block. Just flash it in at end of turn and use it as a 2/1 beater you don't want to block. Not saying it was a bad card. Just never did what I always expect ti to do.
This guy is great. There aren't a lot of options for green removal, and its a pretty high pick for G/U/x decks that are light on that type of interaction. It also slots nicely into G/B/x graveyard decks, where it functions as early interaction, while also adding a body to the yard.
Are these cards good?
Triclopean Sight - Only because you mentioned to me that you had the counter argument as to why this card should stay
This card blew me out again this weekend. I know it looks janky! But it keeps on surprise murdering people, and the vigilance is brutal on the vertical growth heroic threats it was designed to enhance. The one mana difference between it and tiger claws is huge in terms of being able to hold up mana for it.
Mangara of Corondor - How has this guy been. I can see he is a sort of flicker support, but your instant speed flicker is minimal. Is it worth having a guy as an oblivion ring?
The thing you have to remember about mangara is that he hits any permanent, which means bouncelands are fair game. The potential upside for running him is always going to be huge, even game winning, but at the same time he's kept in check by summoning sickness, and a frail body. In addition, he can hit troublesome enchantments, artifacts, or just work as a powerful creature removal effect.
Cloudfin Raptor - Don't understand the deck he fits into.
This is another card that I could probably cut, but don't feel any impetuous to do so. I think cloudfin in general is just not a great card for cube, but it does work in G/U decks, where it can easily grow, benefit from counter lords, and carry auras.
Courier's Capsule - Generally gets popped straight away. Unsure why this can't be something else. Buried Ruin interaction? It doesn't really work for metalcraft or even affinity really.
Its basically just a draw spell with occasional artifact synergy. It could be something else, but that would reduce some play complexity.
Cadaver Imp - I love raise dead effects, but your three drop density in black is high. I don't know if being a 1/1 flyer is relevant but the BB cost sure is. Maybe this would be just better as a Gravedigger. A 2/2 body in this format seems relevant enough.
Imp's big appeal is that its an evasive value threat that you can ninjutsu back. Not really any other card I can think of that interacts as well with the list as imp, though I could swear there was some other card that caught my eye a month or so ago as being cool, and now I can't remember. Maybe it was undertaker? As another tortured existence effect?
Keldon Marauders - What deck is this for? Flicker? Burn? I've been getting turned off this guy for a while now. I just feel there are two-drops with more play.
He is a 3 mana creature with an ETB and LTB trigger, that quickly hits the yard, making him good for value reanimation plays like unearth, generally supporting graveyard strategies that care about creatures in the yard, potentially ninjutsu, but is more or less a two drop for aggressive decks that has some synergy.
Thunderscape Familiar - The other familiars I can understand (combo) does this one support anything? What have you seen it do in action?
I've ran him in aggro decks before, jundish deck, and the first strike on him makes for a sort of pseudo heroic effect. In general, I've found cost reduction to be a powerful effect.
Utopia Sprawl - Whenever I drafted it I never thought I had a high enough density of forests to make it work. The large amount of non-basics limit its usage. Is this fixing? Ramp? Can it be swapped for something less restrictive?
I'm so glad you brought up this card. Originally, it was a second fertile ground, but I opted to run it because Eric said somewhere it was the better card. It is not, at least not in a list without shocks. It is both fixing and ramp, and yes could be swapped for something less restrictive. However, its restrictiveness has lead to some really funny plays, that have complicated games in a manner that I've found enjoyable, so I rather enjoy the spice that its brought.
Reclaim - I keep calling this 'not a real card' to people who try to play it in standard. I don't mind Noxious Revival though, so I don't know what is wrong with me. Why can't something like Recollect be used (curiosities sake).
I can't really remember my original reasoning for reclaim, but it certainly could be recollect, and a reasonable argument exists that it should be, as noxious revival already exists. I think my original reasoning was that the instant speed and TOL nature adds an interesting sequencing element? At least, that sounds like reasoning I would use for the card.
Savra, Queen of the Golgari - For some reason I keep thinking that the cards you are going to sacrifice are either red or white (the token producers), which neuters this card. I can see this card as blow-out potential, but BG doesn't seem like the 'sacrifice' archetype.
B/G doesn't have many disposable tokens, however, it has a number of creatures that sacrifice.
Those are some adorable interactions, that get even better with blacks reanimation, especially when coupled with something like golgari brownscale. I'm actually pretty excited about savra.
Underperformers
Somber Hoverguard - This was probably just a bad inclusion on my part as I always had to cast it for 5-6 and it kept dying to everything in the air. Might also suffer from the grid draft process as well due to not being able to obtain artifact density.
TBH he usually has been an under performer, and generally you will only discount it 1-2, but there is something oddly endearing about the card. Its just so very mediocre, but has just enough synergy where it can squeeze into a final 40. Its kind of in this weird spot where I could cut it without hurting the list, but I don't feel any real impetus to do so. I would describe it as a low priority pick, something you run to fill out a deck, but never really essential.
Krosan Restorer - I can see the appeal and I understand what it can accomplish. I just never did any of these things in the game I saw it in. The main appeal I would think is to go from 3 mana on turn 3 to 6 mana on turn 4 with a bounceland. The problem was all the decks it was in didn't have this higher end to take advantage of this. Probably more build errors, I was just sad to see this card of great potential to nothing but chump block and die.
The other use that these cards fill that you didn't get to see, was color fixing. You can use restorer to be CC requirements. Its other big appeal is that it can produce consistent mana bursts over time, which creates two contrasting ways to ramp in the format. You can take the "burst" approach with cloud of faeries style cards, or a more consistent approach with untappers like restorer or voyaging satyr. These cards also synergize with creature untap effects like quirion and scryb ranger. These types of builds tend to work better with mana sink based ramp, which is a nice contrast to just burst ramping out fatties.
Its a little expensive at 3 mana to come down, and voyaging satry is probably more consistent, but I like the diversity it brings, as well as the higher ceiling.
Juggernaut - I don't think it ever came out in Modin's deck. In my BG graveyard deck I had it in my hand several times but it was just better discarding it to get something better. That was probably just due to the high quality card I had in that deck. Galvanic Juggernaut on the other hand was so great whenever I saw it (but it was in different decks). I guess that 5 toughness is so hard to get to so it is just an abyss half the time. Juggernaut dies to so many more things (nearly every burn spell). I really like the card (and shouting the name) but maybe its time has come.
We talked a little bit about this, and I'm open to opinions. Juggernaut itself is fine, but i.m.o the issue is more that a similar (and more interesting) card exists in the form of Galvanic Juggernaut, for a slot that doesn't really need an increase in density. It does consistently make final 40s, and sees play.
I was toying with the idea of trisk; but this is another card that I don't feel any pressing need to cut, but could be cut if it made sense to do so.
Ambush Viper - Another victim of poor circumstance. I always think of this as the green doom blade, but it never got to remove a creature I wanted. Probably as this was always in the aggro deck. So there was never an opportunity to block. Just flash it in at end of turn and use it as a 2/1 beater you don't want to block. Not saying it was a bad card. Just never did what I always expect ti to do.
This guy is great. There aren't a lot of options for green removal, and its a pretty high pick for G/U/x decks that are light on that type of interaction. It also slots nicely into G/B/x graveyard decks, where it functions as early interaction, while also adding a body to the yard.
Are these cards good?
Triclopean Sight - Only because you mentioned to me that you had the counter argument as to why this card should stay
This card blew me out again this weekend. I know it looks janky! But it keeps on surprise murdering people, and the vigilance is brutal on the vertical growth heroic threats it was designed to enhance. The one mana difference between it and tiger claws is huge in terms of being able to hold up mana for it.
Mangara of Corondor - How has this guy been. I can see he is a sort of flicker support, but your instant speed flicker is minimal. Is it worth having a guy as an oblivion ring?
The thing you have to remember about mangara is that he hits any permanent, which means bouncelands are fair game. The potential upside for running him is always going to be huge, even game winning, but at the same time he's kept in check by summoning sickness, and a frail body. In addition, he can hit troublesome enchantments, artifacts, or just work as a powerful creature removal effect.
Cloudfin Raptor - Don't understand the deck he fits into.
This is another card that I could probably cut, but don't feel any impetuous to do so. I think cloudfin in general is just not a great card for cube, but it does work in G/U decks, where it can easily grow, benefit from counter lords, and carry auras.
Courier's Capsule - Generally gets popped straight away. Unsure why this can't be something else. Buried Ruin interaction? It doesn't really work for metalcraft or even affinity really.
Its basically just a draw spell with occasional artifact synergy. It could be something else, but that would reduce some play complexity.
Cadaver Imp - I love raise dead effects, but your three drop density in black is high. I don't know if being a 1/1 flyer is relevant but the BB cost sure is. Maybe this would be just better as a Gravedigger. A 2/2 body in this format seems relevant enough.
Imp's big appeal is that its an evasive value threat that you can ninjutsu back. Not really any other card I can think of that interacts as well with the list as imp, though I could swear there was some other card that caught my eye a month or so ago as being cool, and now I can't remember. Maybe it was undertaker? As another tortured existence effect?
Keldon Marauders - What deck is this for? Flicker? Burn? I've been getting turned off this guy for a while now. I just feel there are two-drops with more play.
He is a 3 mana creature with an ETB and LTB trigger, that quickly hits the yard, making him good for value reanimation plays like unearth, generally supporting graveyard strategies that care about creatures in the yard, potentially ninjutsu, but is more or less a two drop for aggressive decks that has some synergy.
Thunderscape Familiar - The other familiars I can understand (combo) does this one support anything? What have you seen it do in action?
I've ran him in aggro decks before, jundish deck, and the first strike on him makes for a sort of pseudo heroic effect. In general, I've found cost reduction to be a powerful effect.
Utopia Sprawl - Whenever I drafted it I never thought I had a high enough density of forests to make it work. The large amount of non-basics limit its usage. Is this fixing? Ramp? Can it be swapped for something less restrictive?
I'm so glad you brought up this card. Originally, it was a second fertile ground, but I opted to run it because Eric said somewhere it was the better card. It is not, at least not in a list without shocks. It is both fixing and ramp, and yes could be swapped for something less restrictive. However, its restrictiveness has lead to some really funny plays, that have complicated games in a manner that I've found enjoyable, so I rather enjoy the spice that its brought.
Reclaim - I keep calling this 'not a real card' to people who try to play it in standard. I don't mind Noxious Revival though, so I don't know what is wrong with me. Why can't something like Recollect be used (curiosities sake).
I can't really remember my original reasoning for reclaim, but it certainly could be recollect, and a reasonable argument exists that it should be, as noxious revival already exists. I think my original reasoning was that the instant speed and TOL nature adds an interesting sequencing element? At least, that sounds like reasoning I would use for the card.
Savra, Queen of the Golgari - For some reason I keep thinking that the cards you are going to sacrifice are either red or white (the token producers), which neuters this card. I can see this card as blow-out potential, but BG doesn't seem like the 'sacrifice' archetype.
B/G doesn't have many disposable tokens, however, it has a number of creatures that sacrifice.
Those are some adorable interactions, that get even better with blacks reanimation, especially when coupled with something like golgari brownscale. I'm actually pretty excited about savra.
This is a fun post. Let me give a brief breakdown of each card. I kept your format, and my thoughts will be in blue, which I hope won't be difficult to read.
Blue was a good colour choice
That gave me a good enough indication as to where you stand with all those cards. I know that not all cards can be equal, but if they keep making in 40 card decks than how are you to argue (Somber Hoverguard, Cloudfin Raptor, Reclaim). I wonder if they could be marked as 'potential cuts' if something more interesting and 'must-have' arrives. There are a couple of replies though I would like to query:
Keldon Marauders:
He is a 3 mana creature with an ETB and LTB trigger, that quickly hits the yard, making him good for value reanimation plays like unearth, generally supporting graveyard strategies that care about creatures in the yard, potentially ninjutsu, but is more or less a two drop for aggressive decks that has some synergy.
It seems weird that the first two things you mention are archetypes that aren't in the same colour as the card mentioned. You saved it at the end with the 'aggressive two drop' explanation, but still seems lackluster in that regard. Then again, looking at your list, there isn't too much that actually fits into that category so I guess it is needed. I don't why I keep picking on the marauders so much. Maybe I do keep thinking what Chris Taylor said in that is a burn spell and not a creature. It being a creature gives it more play with all the effects mentioned. I must just dislike the card. I would love to see it in action just so can be proven it has some decent play instead of a lava axe to the face.
Actually don't worry about that. My reading comprehension is terrible.
Another thing while I was looking at Mangara again, I noticed your white three-drop section is very WW heavy. I noticed this also in my bant splicer deck when trying to splash white. Is this a feature? Has anyone else had any trouble splashing white?
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Honestly, I've not really thought about the WW in the three drop section. I guess I always thought of it more as a main color?
I actually did kind of have that problem in a deck I built last week, where I wanted both fabled hero and flickerwisp in a three color deck, where white was a supporting color.
I'm not really sure how fixable that might be, or if it should be fixed? Fabled hero, flickerwisp, and wingsteed rider can't go anywhere. It would suck to lose mangara Opinions?
I actually did kind of have that problem in a deck I built last week, where I wanted both fabled hero and flickerwisp in a three color deck, where white was a supporting color.
I'm not really sure how fixable that might be, or if it should be fixed? Fabled hero, flickerwisp, and wingsteed rider can't go anywhere. It would suck to lose mangara Opinions?
I cut Emancipation Angel to keep color commitments a little lighter in that slot. I really like the angel, but Flickerwisp is much more dynamic in combat and with the bouncelands. Having both in white started to tip the scales in regards to power:cmc, and gave white disportionately too much evasive strength. They're also fairly redundant: 3 cmc, 3 power, evasive, blink support.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Thats actually not a bad idea. How dynamic is that card in a slower, more mana abundant format?
Also, both somber hoverguard and cloudfin I would label bottom tier picks, though I just checked my bottom picks on cube tutor, and surprise surprise cloudfin isn't on it, so maybe its better than I am giving it credit for.
Also, both somber hoverguard and cloudfin I would label bottom tier picks, though I just checked my bottom picks on cube tutor, and surprise surprise cloudfin isn't on it, so maybe its better than I am giving it credit for.
Back when my format had bouncelands in it, it was a house. Blanked removal left, right, center, and inside out. Block with a creature->return said creature was a thing too, and it provides incidental GY control too. It's still a perfectly fine card, even with the bouncelands gone. More of an aggressive role player, returning a 1-drop to get a beefy flier out, etc etc.
It's also good for stacking counters on Shrine of Loyal Legions at instant speed. That seems like a really good option in this environment. I may include it as well.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Changes I am contemplating once the cards arrive in the mail:
Out:
In
Already did the tigers claws->hunger of the howlpack and leonin squire -> isamaru swaps
The changes are the previously contemplated bushwhacker swap to cut down on singleton breaking in the main colors (we now just have one spot left in red, and two in white).
The multi-color swaps are mostly just interest upgrades, and the multi-color section is supposed to be more composite regardless. Ghor-clan and proc bolt were fine. Really excited about Mina and Denn in particular. R/G is such a great color combination.
Also note that by further cementing the power in the multi-color section, it further complicates the relationship between wanting to go into powerful three color strategies, and the decks that want to disrupt them.
As happy as I am to have triad of fates on the way out, orzhov's general gimpyness is, again, presenting itself as a problem. I picked up a copy of this lovely card:
Which would both slot comfortably into the cube power level wise (to the point of being pushed), and be quite interesting, I think. I'm unwilling, however, to have both selenia and wydwen in the cube at the same time, as they are both so similar in function. Ah well, we shall see.
I also opted not to cut emancipation angel for stonecloaker. The reason being that stonecloaker blanks removal, and the cube can only support a certain density of conditional counterspells that are narrowly tailored to counter removal. The correct spot that stonecloaker is competing for isn't actually emancipation angel (in this format) its shelter or apostle's blessing.
Since the format can't tolerate an increase in narrowly tailored removal counters, I am opting not to cut emancipation angel for stonecloaker. Since those temp protection effects offer so much more for the format in terms of evasion and prowess triggers, I am opting not to cut one of them for stonecloaker.
Out:
In
Already did the tigers claws->hunger of the howlpack and leonin squire -> isamaru swaps
The changes are the previously contemplated bushwhacker swap to cut down on singleton breaking in the main colors (we now just have one spot left in red, and two in white).
The multi-color swaps are mostly just interest upgrades, and the multi-color section is supposed to be more composite regardless. Ghor-clan and proc bolt were fine. Really excited about Mina and Denn in particular. R/G is such a great color combination.
Also note that by further cementing the power in the multi-color section, it further complicates the relationship between wanting to go into powerful three color strategies, and the decks that want to disrupt them.
As happy as I am to have triad of fates on the way out, orzhov's general gimpyness is, again, presenting itself as a problem. I picked up a copy of this lovely card:
Which would both slot comfortably into the cube power level wise (to the point of being pushed), and be quite interesting, I think. I'm unwilling, however, to have both selenia and wydwen in the cube at the same time, as they are both so similar in function. Ah well, we shall see.
I also opted not to cut emancipation angel for stonecloaker. The reason being that stonecloaker blanks removal, and the cube can only support a certain density of conditional counterspells that are narrowly tailored to counter removal. The correct spot that stonecloaker is competing for isn't actually emancipation angel (in this format) its shelter or apostle's blessing.
Since the format can't tolerate an increase in narrowly tailored removal counters, I am opting not to cut emancipation angel for stonecloaker. Since those temp protection effects offer so much more for the format in terms of evasion and prowess triggers, I am opting not to cut one of them for stonecloaker.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Here is a more extreme experimental patch I would like to get some opinions on. The idea is to expand color range by moving the significant off-color flashback spells into the multi-color section, and maximize the artifact density in the cube. In addition, it adds some hard removal for U/G deck (which are kind of dependent on ambush viper at the moment), and a little more anti-graveyard tech. Riftwatcher feeds into graveyard/blink strategies, while also providing life gain for lifepay decks. idol would be listed as a white card, since unlike shrine of loyal legions, you can't really play it without white mana in your deck.
Out
In
Transfer to multi-color
This also would enable me to cut a dimir card for wydwen, the biting gale. Maybe psychatog?
Out
In
Transfer to multi-color
This also would enable me to cut a dimir card for wydwen, the biting gale. Maybe psychatog?
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Just there, which is disappointing for a creature that at one time was considered the "best creature of all time."
Its kind of just a value creature, that doubles as a discard outlet, which would be a decent role player in some of the U/B/x decks. However, people want to build around it, which isn't that powerful. So its probably a victim of both its own fame, and occupying something of a narrow niche.
Its kind of just a value creature, that doubles as a discard outlet, which would be a decent role player in some of the U/B/x decks. However, people want to build around it, which isn't that powerful. So its probably a victim of both its own fame, and occupying something of a narrow niche.
Psychatog has always been pretty good for me. It usually ends up playing like The Abyss for a few turns. It also plays well with bounce-lands.
I've see it built around a few times in Sultai alongside a Hooting Mandrills, Tasigur, or Gurmag Angler....Cantrips/Filter draw, Recursion, Spell-based creature generators that advance your board while putting a card in the yard: Grizzly Fate, Call of the Herd, Roar of the Wurm, Talrand's Invocation, Bestial Menace. Also Rancor, Moldervine Cloak, Wonder, and Berserk.
I've see it built around a few times in Sultai alongside a Hooting Mandrills, Tasigur, or Gurmag Angler....Cantrips/Filter draw, Recursion, Spell-based creature generators that advance your board while putting a card in the yard: Grizzly Fate, Call of the Herd, Roar of the Wurm, Talrand's Invocation, Bestial Menace. Also Rancor, Moldervine Cloak, Wonder, and Berserk.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Made the limited changes described here. Well received, the three gold cards are just much more interesting than what they are replacing.
I'm also running the more experimental patch, where we are moving off color flashback cards to the gold section, in order to increase color range. I'm implementing it as such
Out
In
Transition to multi-color
I'm finding myself falling increasingly out of love with the idea of archetype design, and more focused on the idea of deck design, which seems a lot clearer (though maybe archetype design plays a role in the early or mid stages of a cube's design life?).
I'm also firmly of the opinion that white's historical weaknesses were all tied to limitations in color density and range: it had two off-color flashback spells, and singleton breaks on a rather narrow build-around that goes into only one deck: auriok salvagers. As a result, it was really three cards smaller than the competing sections, which may not seem like much, but actually translates into 6% of the white section.
I've also been finding myself feeling generally negative towards build arounds, which I think put more pressure on a cube than people realize. I think that in general, you want to have your cards be able to fit comfortably into at least two to three decks to justify having a place in a cube.
But anyways,
Cards that were fine but are being cut anyways for the patch
skyknight is solid value, but rather dull; teysa is great, though drafters have a bad habit of reading the first ability and dismissing it; vault is a great card, but its a bit redundant to have it alongside teachings, and teachings can be discarded/act as a mana sink/creates interesting deck constraints; blind with anger is fine but the effect was feeling a bit redundant and blind doesn't offer quite the payoff anymore to justify its cost; rally was fine but felt redundant.
Card that aren't meeting my deck test criteria
Each of these cards really go in exactly one deck. Cloudfin raptor and stitched drake, in particular, I'm beginning to think are just bad cards that shouldn't be ran in cube. Silumgar sorcerer and psionic blast go into similar decks as those cards, but do so better, and are much more flexible as enablers.
I settled on Gideon's lawkeeper, because the counterplay between it and scryb ranger and quirion ranger is really sweet, and I wanted to increase the density of that interaction.
I've been wanting to run lust for war for a while, based on inscho's recommendations, and this seems like a good opportunity to do so.
I'm also running the more experimental patch, where we are moving off color flashback cards to the gold section, in order to increase color range. I'm implementing it as such
Out
In
Transition to multi-color
I'm finding myself falling increasingly out of love with the idea of archetype design, and more focused on the idea of deck design, which seems a lot clearer (though maybe archetype design plays a role in the early or mid stages of a cube's design life?).
I'm also firmly of the opinion that white's historical weaknesses were all tied to limitations in color density and range: it had two off-color flashback spells, and singleton breaks on a rather narrow build-around that goes into only one deck: auriok salvagers. As a result, it was really three cards smaller than the competing sections, which may not seem like much, but actually translates into 6% of the white section.
I've also been finding myself feeling generally negative towards build arounds, which I think put more pressure on a cube than people realize. I think that in general, you want to have your cards be able to fit comfortably into at least two to three decks to justify having a place in a cube.
But anyways,
Cards that were fine but are being cut anyways for the patch
skyknight is solid value, but rather dull; teysa is great, though drafters have a bad habit of reading the first ability and dismissing it; vault is a great card, but its a bit redundant to have it alongside teachings, and teachings can be discarded/act as a mana sink/creates interesting deck constraints; blind with anger is fine but the effect was feeling a bit redundant and blind doesn't offer quite the payoff anymore to justify its cost; rally was fine but felt redundant.
Card that aren't meeting my deck test criteria
Each of these cards really go in exactly one deck. Cloudfin raptor and stitched drake, in particular, I'm beginning to think are just bad cards that shouldn't be ran in cube. Silumgar sorcerer and psionic blast go into similar decks as those cards, but do so better, and are much more flexible as enablers.
I settled on Gideon's lawkeeper, because the counterplay between it and scryb ranger and quirion ranger is really sweet, and I wanted to increase the density of that interaction.
I've been wanting to run lust for war for a while, based on inscho's recommendations, and this seems like a good opportunity to do so.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
So, skeletal vampire is going to go, driven by an epiphany about how the game is supposed to work and what makes it fun (and kirblinx's subtle suggestions).
I've been reading e. hustle's not particularly well written, but at times insightful articles about deckbuilding in pauper, and came across this exert which I found interesting
I think he did hit about a key difference between low power and high power formats, that formats compromised mostly of commons and uncommons trend towards one end of a spectrum, and power max formats trend towards another end, as far as strategic pacing is concerned. It also provides more of a guiding hand in understanding how power variances should actually work (which skeletal vampire is currently violating).
I have a love hate relationship with those low power formats; because the games are very much about sculpting a focused strategy, which means the games can feel quite deep, however, the effects of an unfavorable turn is just brutal. When you are losing, you tend to just keep on losing, as individual cards do little to help you catch pace in these little wars of incremental strategy, and there is not much in the way of tempo recouping devices to help you out of the hole. In addition, there is a huge emphasis on meta knowledge, which is awesome for the depth it adds, but results in a heightened learning curve that can be off-putting. Finally, because there aren't power spikes, the games can lack the excitement players want, since the pleasure of a low power format comes from subtle micro interactions managed over time, and there isn't much flash.
Rare/mythic formats tend to have a lot of high power tempo recouping plays, but at times this can overtake the practice of drafting focused decks and sculpting a focused gameplan over multiple turns.
I suppose this also provides some insights into why certain casual formats function the way they do, as sometimes formats become just about doing powerful things, and strategic planning is largely left at the wayside. It also provides insight into why control decks can start to vanish in certain formats, since control decks are more about crafting game states than doing powerful things; as well as part of the problem aggro has in these formats, since aggro decks generally struggle to do exciting things, and are more about crafting a certain gamestate by turn four. Really, its a blue print for where midrange dominated formats come from.
Ultimately, this is probably an area where the idea of magic being dumbed down can have some merit, because the more you focus your format on bomby powerful plays, the less the games deep strategic interactions matter.
So I think there is something of a needle to thread here, which I ended up inadvertently doing, since I sprinkled some miscellaneous rares throughout the cube at the onset, no mythics, and tried to keep the rares more modest in power level. The way game pacing works out, you have predominately weaker cards that can't win the game on their own, and require a player to draft a focused deck and develop a strategy over multiple turns. I think this is why mulldrifter decks haven't been doing very well, because mulldrifter isn't actually an individually swingy card, but is being mis-evaluated as such. This is also probably why drafters new to the format find it quite challenging, as it emphasizes meta knowledge (which they don't have yet), and demands that they approach the game heavily from an angle they may be unaccustomed to doing so from.
I do have something of a safety value though, to prevent the games from being determined too much by minutia, with reasonably powered, fun rares, like draining whelk, ink-eyes, servant of oni and moltensteel dragon. If you imagine the games being paced in a way where each player is trying to craft a certain game state over many turns, these rares have to serve a function of address what happens when a player falls behind in that strategic progression (which can happen for many different reasons) and offer just enough power for them to catch up that lost tempo. This prevents the sort of weird "zombie-games" you get in pauper, where a single misstep on turn 2 means that a player effectively can't win, but the game goes on for seven more turns. However, the rares can't be so powerful, that when cast when even or ahead they completely close out the game because they put a player so far ahead.
I do have some pushed cards (jor kadeen), but they usually require some support to really shine, and are in the multi-color section, which makes you vulnerable to the natural instabilities of a CIPT manabase, and the policing tools available in the format to punish greed, so I feel this is a nice balance.
Skeletal is a rare that has no multi-color restrictions, requires no support, and if resolved creates a much larger swing than any other rare in the single color sections or even really the multi-color sections. For those reasons, its excelling way to well as a tempo recouping rare, and is too good.
Out
In
I've not really found a replacement I'm happy with for stenchskipper. I'm thinking plagued rusalka or dimir house guard.
In addition, I want to make the following swaps
Out
In
Acolyte is just a very good aggro card, while iguanar encourages aggro players to play towards certain gamestates, offers sweeper protection, and has a sort of fun combo feel to it with a bunch of decks.
I've been reading e. hustle's not particularly well written, but at times insightful articles about deckbuilding in pauper, and came across this exert which I found interesting
I think he did hit about a key difference between low power and high power formats, that formats compromised mostly of commons and uncommons trend towards one end of a spectrum, and power max formats trend towards another end, as far as strategic pacing is concerned. It also provides more of a guiding hand in understanding how power variances should actually work (which skeletal vampire is currently violating).
I have a love hate relationship with those low power formats; because the games are very much about sculpting a focused strategy, which means the games can feel quite deep, however, the effects of an unfavorable turn is just brutal. When you are losing, you tend to just keep on losing, as individual cards do little to help you catch pace in these little wars of incremental strategy, and there is not much in the way of tempo recouping devices to help you out of the hole. In addition, there is a huge emphasis on meta knowledge, which is awesome for the depth it adds, but results in a heightened learning curve that can be off-putting. Finally, because there aren't power spikes, the games can lack the excitement players want, since the pleasure of a low power format comes from subtle micro interactions managed over time, and there isn't much flash.
Rare/mythic formats tend to have a lot of high power tempo recouping plays, but at times this can overtake the practice of drafting focused decks and sculpting a focused gameplan over multiple turns.
I suppose this also provides some insights into why certain casual formats function the way they do, as sometimes formats become just about doing powerful things, and strategic planning is largely left at the wayside. It also provides insight into why control decks can start to vanish in certain formats, since control decks are more about crafting game states than doing powerful things; as well as part of the problem aggro has in these formats, since aggro decks generally struggle to do exciting things, and are more about crafting a certain gamestate by turn four. Really, its a blue print for where midrange dominated formats come from.
Ultimately, this is probably an area where the idea of magic being dumbed down can have some merit, because the more you focus your format on bomby powerful plays, the less the games deep strategic interactions matter.
So I think there is something of a needle to thread here, which I ended up inadvertently doing, since I sprinkled some miscellaneous rares throughout the cube at the onset, no mythics, and tried to keep the rares more modest in power level. The way game pacing works out, you have predominately weaker cards that can't win the game on their own, and require a player to draft a focused deck and develop a strategy over multiple turns. I think this is why mulldrifter decks haven't been doing very well, because mulldrifter isn't actually an individually swingy card, but is being mis-evaluated as such. This is also probably why drafters new to the format find it quite challenging, as it emphasizes meta knowledge (which they don't have yet), and demands that they approach the game heavily from an angle they may be unaccustomed to doing so from.
I do have something of a safety value though, to prevent the games from being determined too much by minutia, with reasonably powered, fun rares, like draining whelk, ink-eyes, servant of oni and moltensteel dragon. If you imagine the games being paced in a way where each player is trying to craft a certain game state over many turns, these rares have to serve a function of address what happens when a player falls behind in that strategic progression (which can happen for many different reasons) and offer just enough power for them to catch up that lost tempo. This prevents the sort of weird "zombie-games" you get in pauper, where a single misstep on turn 2 means that a player effectively can't win, but the game goes on for seven more turns. However, the rares can't be so powerful, that when cast when even or ahead they completely close out the game because they put a player so far ahead.
I do have some pushed cards (jor kadeen), but they usually require some support to really shine, and are in the multi-color section, which makes you vulnerable to the natural instabilities of a CIPT manabase, and the policing tools available in the format to punish greed, so I feel this is a nice balance.
Skeletal is a rare that has no multi-color restrictions, requires no support, and if resolved creates a much larger swing than any other rare in the single color sections or even really the multi-color sections. For those reasons, its excelling way to well as a tempo recouping rare, and is too good.
Out
In
I've not really found a replacement I'm happy with for stenchskipper. I'm thinking plagued rusalka or dimir house guard.
In addition, I want to make the following swaps
Out
In
Acolyte is just a very good aggro card, while iguanar encourages aggro players to play towards certain gamestates, offers sweeper protection, and has a sort of fun combo feel to it with a bunch of decks.