General CBS

You'd be legitimately surprised at how many common lands end up seeing play in Pauper, purely because most of them suck out of control.

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On a slightly different topic...

A cube where mana of one particular color is paid for by gaining poison counters instead of through spending mana is... intriguing. What does the design/play experience look like when each player is capped at spending nine of a given color of mana?

I envision it being a four color cube with gold cards sprinkled throughout. Oh, sure, the white section looks normal... but then there's a two-mana mono-white Vindicate that just asks you to let in a little bit of corruption. Or you have a normal blue section with a one-mana Growth Spiral peaking through and asking you for to let a bit of the beast spirit in...

You'd need something to give it a bit more bite, but the idea's kinda evocative.
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Add in a dash of (non-repeatable?) proliferate, so the number of poison counters you're safe at is not deterministic and you have the trappings of a cool format?

You might also want a mono-color section just to entice the players a little bit more. Kill most creatures with Go for the Throat, paying only {1} ... and a poison counter! Draw two cards for the low price of {1}, 2 life... and a poison counter. Zombify a creature for 3 mana... and a poison counter! Is a 3/3 flying Doom Blade worth it for {4} if it also gets you 2 poison counters?
 

Kirblinx

Developer
Staff member
Most common lands are useless outside their own limited set
So lets see what the latest standard sets common lands have been and I'll tell you if they are useless or not.

New Phyrexia

These lands are fine in limited to help mitigate flood, I feel like they could make a splash in pauper, but I feel like the cycle lands are better just because they are cheaper to convert into a card.
Diagnosis: Almost Useless

Brothers War

Seeing play sometime in Tron as a utility land to search up with Expedition Map. The campus's have been cool and having a colourless option that costs one less and can put into the graveyard is a nice addition, if not very niche.
Diagnosis: Niche Roleplayer

Dominaria United

These dual lands are what were all waiting for... If they hadn't done the snow ones in Kaldheim last year. Cards are still great and is nice to have more of the same thing. Dimir Terror has taken to playing just 8 of these duals instead of any swamps to be able to cast Snuff Out for free while being easily able to cast counterspell.
Diagnosis: Never too Much of a Good Thing
Crystal Grotto is another nice grab. The Unknown Shores has been a much maligned manafixer but it is the best rainbow fixing we get in pauper. The best previous to this one was Cave of Temptation, which while did help increase the clock when put on a Mulldrifter, the clock wasn't Tron's problem. Tron's main problem is the early game and drawing the wrong cards. This card helps mitigate that and thus is now the best rainbow option for Tron.
Diagnosis: Best we've got so far

Street of New Capenna

Obscura Storefront and friends are a godsend since the 'red menace' has come to be in pauper. While these may just look like a bad evolving wilds, the 1 life can be surprisingly relevant. I've (yes, it was actually me) made Obscura Storefront a staple on the BW Ephemerate deck. I've also seen the others get some use (except for Riveteers Overlook, Jund is not good in pauper), so yeah, don't throw these out, these are great!
Diagnosis: The new Evolving Wilds for 2-3 colour decks
The draw card duals on the otherhand aren't nearly as widely accepted. They are fine, but same with the ONE sac lands, the cost is just a little too high to be worth drawing a card. Tramway Station is the only one that seems some regular play in the goblin combo deck, as it really needs the fixing and really wants to draw cards when flooding out. I've also the UB one in some control lists, but that's about it.
Diagnosis: It's an option if you want it

So yeah, nearly all of the recent common lands see some use outside of limited. Some are even the best we've ever gotten, so I don't know what Velrun is on about.
 
What actually happened to ‘and/or’?

I feel like I haven’t seen it in many years. Did I miss when Wizards stopped using it or have my eyes got so use to them that I don’t even notice them anymore?
 
So yeah, nearly all of the recent common lands see some use outside of limited. Some are even the best we've ever gotten, so I don't know what Velrun is on about.

Now do this for all common lands from all sets. Not just the most recent sets.

Because I didn’t mention ‘recent’

Most common lands are useless outside their own limited set

And then you can ponder what ‘most’ means. I will trust your judgment if you decide to do this with every set of Magic cards and all common lands, GO :p
 
So lets see what the latest standard sets common lands have been and I'll tell you if they are useless or not.

New Phyrexia

These lands are fine in limited to help mitigate flood, I feel like they could make a splash in pauper, but I feel like the cycle lands are better just because they are cheaper to convert into a card.
Diagnosis: Almost Useless

Brothers War

Seeing play sometime in Tron as a utility land to search up with Expedition Map. The campus's have been cool and having a colourless option that costs one less and can put into the graveyard is a nice addition, if not very niche.
Diagnosis: Niche Roleplayer

Dominaria United

These dual lands are what were all waiting for... If they hadn't done the snow ones in Kaldheim last year. Cards are still great and is nice to have more of the same thing. Dimir Terror has taken to playing just 8 of these duals instead of any swamps to be able to cast Snuff Out for free while being easily able to cast counterspell.
Diagnosis: Never too Much of a Good Thing
Crystal Grotto is another nice grab. The Unknown Shores has been a much maligned manafixer but it is the best rainbow fixing we get in pauper. The best previous to this one was Cave of Temptation, which while did help increase the clock when put on a Mulldrifter, the clock wasn't Tron's problem. Tron's main problem is the early game and drawing the wrong cards. This card helps mitigate that and thus is now the best rainbow option for Tron.
Diagnosis: Best we've got so far

Street of New Capenna

Obscura Storefront and friends are a godsend since the 'red menace' has come to be in pauper. While these may just look like a bad evolving wilds, the 1 life can be surprisingly relevant. I've (yes, it was actually me) made Obscura Storefront a staple on the BW Ephemerate deck. I've also seen the others get some use (except for Riveteers Overlook, Jund is not good in pauper), so yeah, don't throw these out, these are great!
Diagnosis: The new Evolving Wilds for 2-3 colour decks
The draw card duals on the otherhand aren't nearly as widely accepted. They are fine, but same with the ONE sac lands, the cost is just a little too high to be worth drawing a card. Tramway Station is the only one that seems some regular play in the goblin combo deck, as it really needs the fixing and really wants to draw cards when flooding out. I've also the UB one in some control lists, but that's about it.
Diagnosis: It's an option if you want it

So yeah, nearly all of the recent common lands see some use outside of limited. Some are even the best we've ever gotten, so I don't know what Velrun is on about.
I play a lot with the og cycling lands and I think that the fair basilica is better since you can just play it and sac it later. Yes, when you are in turn 8 and you draw it, then the og cycling one is better. But most of the times with the cycling ones you have to play it and then you flood afterwards.
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Now do this for all common lands from all sets. Not just the most recent sets.

Because I didn’t mention ‘recent’

And then you can ponder what ‘most’ means. I will trust your judgment if you decide to do this with every set of Magic cards and all common lands, GO :p
That's a bold demand you make Velrun! I mean, there's only 200 lands to go over, so... I'm definitely ignoring the commander-specific cards and other weird stuff like Cryptic Spires. It's been an age since I played Pauper, but there are resources I can consult to shore up my knowledge ;)

Commander Legends: Battle for Baldur's Gate

Diagnosis: So, Gates are actually a thing in Pauper, with both (approximately) Azorius and Naya versions seeing tier 2 play. You'ld think there aren't that many payoffs, with many incentives for running gates appearing at uncommon. You'ld be looking at the list and seeing only a copy or two of Saruli Gatekeepers and some Gatecreeper Vines. The Azorius version doesn't even run any gate payoffs at first blush...
Diagnosis: Until you look at the land section and see this one colorless gate that presents repeatable pump, targeting annoyingly hard to block creatures like Guardian of the Guildpact. Together these form a fun little land package that enabled a few new decks to emerge on the back of a different kind of mana base!
Diagnosis: Yup... the gates deck runs this one too.

Kamigawa: Neon Dynasty

Diagnosis: This land is strictly inferior to the gates from CLB an the thriving lands from Jumpstart, so there's no reason to run this ever. This is, in fact, a rather rare case of a useless common land! How rare? You'ld be surprised!

Modern Horizons 2

Diagnosis: Just like the original artifact lands, these see a lot of play. Losing etb'ing untapped, but fixing your mana is a fair trade-off, and being indestructible is just sugar on top with a card like Gorilla Shaman being a sideboard staple in the format. Great lands!

Strixhaven: School of Mages

Diagnosis: The campuses (campi? camposi? :p) aren't hugely relevant, but do sometimes see play. They're roleplayers in decks that tend to prolong the game, like Orzhov Midrange decks or the {G/U} Turbo Fog deck.
Diagnosis: Archway Commons, on the other hand, isn't a card that sees much play. Some tried it, but I don't believe it's gaining much traction. We're at a stage in the Pauper format where fixing your mana simply isn't that hard anymore, so the value of a rainbow land is lessened, let alone one that asks you to pay mana when it etb's.

Kaldheim

Diagnosis: Typed duals are the bomb! Like Kirblinx already said, there are blue decks splashing black on the back of both UB duals, giving them reliable access to both Counterspell and Snuff Out. The snow subtype isn't hugely relevant for every deck, but Skred is a card that still sees play and doesn't mind the supertype at all. Very good duals!
Diagnosis: The Vale does have the snow subtype, but generally you're better off playing a fetchland for a basic snow land, so there's no real reason to play this.

Jumpstart

Diagnosis: A weird little cycle that doesn't look like it offers a big benefit over stuff like the campuses or the typed duals, but... Slivers! This old tribal favorite has a {G/W} core, but splashes red and sometimes blue, and routinely includes thriving lands to fix for whatever splash color they're missing.

Throne of Eldraine

Diagnosis: Mystic Sanctuary, the blue member of this cycle, was so powerful it had to be banned, so... yeah, I think we can conclude this cycle at least contributed to the format. The white and black members of this cycle still see play in their respective mono color decks, so that's 3 out of 5 that were or are relevant to Pauper. Not bad!

Modern Horizons

Diagnosis: Has since been supplanted by Crystal Grotto in Tron, but this was a legit addition at the time. It still sees a little bit of play, but is definitely less relevant than it used to be.

Guilds of Ravnica

Diagnosis: Not even good enough for the gate deck, because having to pay mana to keep your land when you play it is really bad. So, another stinker.

Hour of Devastation

Diagnosis: We have better cycling lands available, and a desert matters deck never took off, so this cycle sadly sees almost no play.
Diagnosis: Weirdly enough, this one does see play, as a one-off in the high tier 2 Defender Combo deck. Also, Slivers again saves a weird common land from not seeing play, with many opting to include a few encampments in their list in an effort to splash greedily.

Amonkhet

Diagnosis: I'ld fold this card on the small blind. Next hand please!
Diagnosis: Accursed indeed, judging by the number of decks that play this card.
Diagnosis: Ok, can we just agree that the Amonkhet lands all were a dud for Pauper, considering that a desert deck never took off? This is one of those sets that was cool to draft, requiring a specific setup of lands that just never translated to constructed.

Kaladesh, Aether Revolt, and Amonkhet

Diagnosis: This cycle saw print in preconstructed decks, I believe, over a period of three sets. None of these are offering anything other options didn't already offer. The Amonkhet curse strikes yet again! (And these non-deserts weren't even in the main set!)

Commander 2016

Diagnosis: Ash Barrens, on the other hand, is a hot cycling card! This still sees play in various decks, whenever they need a filler fixer but don't want their fixers to etb tapped in the late game. This card sees play in such a wide variety of decks, that I wouldn't mind calling it a staple.

Shadows over Innistrad

Diagnosis: Not a single player dared to put this into their deck over the past weeks. It's strange how Ash Barrens and this saw print back to back with how much weaker Warped Landscape is!

Oath of the Gatewatch

Diagnosis: Survivors' Encampment is a functional reprint, considering that the desert subtype isn't doing anything in pauper, so see that card's diagnosis.
Diagnosis: Incredibly, the player GustShaman piloted a {G/W} Bogles deck to first place a couple of times over the past six months, playing three copies of this. I'm guessing that their four copies of Abundant Growth make Crumbling Vestige play like a Savannah much of the time, which contextually makes it the best dual in the format available to them!

Battle for Zendikar

Diagnosis: Mortuary Mire is the only one of this cycle to see play, but it's a mainstay in UWx familiar decks, amongst others, mostly as a one-off (after all, bouncelands let you reuse those). Not the most succesful cycle, but with one very useful member.

Khans of Tarkir

Diagnosis: The gainlands! In a world where mono red is the boogey-man, every point of life gained is one step closer to survival, so these definitely have their use. There was a time when these were all over the format, but more recent options have definitely diversified the mana bases in Pauper, and the gainlands are not as ubiquitous as they once were. Still really solid though!

Magic 2015

Diagnosis: You know what's more efficient than gaining 1 life off of a land? That's right, gaining 2! While no deck wants to run 4, as far as I'm aware, there are plenty of decks including one or two copies of this card as part of their arsenal to combat mono red.

Theros

Diagnosis: I mean, we're almost a decade into the past by now, and this card has been thoroughly power crept twice by now. Cave of Temptation and Crystal Grotto have made Unknown Shores utterly superfluous.

Gatecrash and Return to Ravnica

Diagnosis: Once upon a time these fueled Saruli Gatekeepers and other lower tier strategies. It's cruel that they printed Basilisk Gate in the same set as the Citadel Gate cycle, because that cycle is simply a strict upgrade over locked in duals. That said, Azorius Gates often runs few enough colors that it can still make room for a couple of Azorius Guildgates, so at least one card in this cycle remains relevant!
Diagnosis: See, they kept trying to improve on this design, but they're just bad, and paying mana for your lands will keep being bad unless they include an upside much larger than being able to tap for any color.

Avacyn Restored

Diagnosis: Just because someone took an angel deck with four of these to a Pauper tournament once doesn't make this a played card, right? Unless angel tribal ever becomes viable in Pauper, I don't see this gaining much traction. There's some playable and even good angels already out there though, so who knows!

Dark Ascension

Diagnosis: The random aspect of this makes it a bit shaky, but still, it's card advantage on a land, and what other deck to take advantage of that than Tron? Only the green versions though!

Master's Edition IV

Diagnosis: Weirdly enough, no one wants to play lands that don't tap for mana, apparently. Who would have guessed?

Scars of Mirrodin

Diagnosis: Ok, this sees zero play, nowadays, but back when Cloudpost was still legal this was everywhere, so still a good land.

Rise of the Eldrazi

Diagnosis: There are still cards that play this, though most of them should switch to the Streets of New Capenna fetches. For the longest time, this was a staple though, so I'ld still classify it as relevant.

Worldwake

Diagnosis: Bojuka Bog is a staple, and Khalni Garden sees some play as well, but the others seem lost to memory.
Diagnosis: I remember playing Quicksand, in Peasant even, but that was long ago. Nowadays it hardly sees any play anymore.

Zendikar

Diagnosis: The stayer in this cycle turned out to be Kabira Crossroads. Much like Radiant Fountain, the 2 life helps you in staying alive. I remember Teetering Peaks seeing play in aggressive red decks to push through extra damage, but with the increased speed of those decks, and the quality of the format in general, mono red decks want their sources to etb untapped nowadays.

Conflux

Diagnosis: This is all your fault Rupture Spire. You are officially the common land with the most unnecessary functional reprins. Three! (Even if one of those is a gate...) Three! Get out of here Spire!

Shards of Alara

Diagnosis: These haven't aged well. Oh well.

Lorwyn

Diagnosis: Like Unkown Shores after it, this has been power crept out of the equation.

Dissension, Guildpact, and Ravnica: City of Guilds

Diagnosis: The original bouncelands are still relevant after all these years. Great cards, I don't think I need to explain why.

Time Spiral

Diagnosis: The original Evolving Wilds, and much like it, it should be replaced by the Streets of Capenna fetches.

Darksteel

Diagnosis: Affinity staple, though less necessary now that the bridges have been printed.

Mirrodin

Diagnosis: Multiple tier 1 decks run artifact lands. Of course there is the Affinity deck, but cards like Kuldotha Rebirth, Deadly Dispute, and Glint Hawk keep these relevant for other decks as well. On top of their premium double card type, they even enter the battlefield untapped, making them true S-tier staples in my mind.

Onslaught

Diagnosis: The best cycle lands (out of three cycles) because they are the cheapest to cycle. The green and blue one aren't really popular, but the rest see a bunch of play.

Odyssey

Diagnosis: Reeeee! These are just bad.

Invasion

Diagnosis: Not much play remained for these, but these offer an explosive amount of mana. I think for Pauper we're just short of enough spells to abuse these, and consequently these were more popular in Peasant.

Mercadian Masques

Diagnosis: These directly enabled the initiative deck that got banned into oblivion, so I'ld say, yes, these are powerful in the right shell.

Urza's Saga

Diagnosis: While the Onslaught cyclers are the best, that doesn't mean these don't see play. The biggest upside of this particular cycle is that they cycle for colorless mana! That means Tron decks can often make room for one or two of these to round out the mana base.

Antiquities

Diagnosis: An entire tier 1 deck is based on these three, so easy S-tier staples.

Arabian Nights

Diagnosis: I might have mentioned before that deserts never really took off, despite WotC trying their hardest in Amonkhet block. You might be surprised to learn that the oldest desert does see play though, as they're a staple in {G/U} Turbo Fog!

Alpha

Diagnosis: These need no introduction. Having your colored mana sources enter the battlefield untapped remains one of the best upsides in Magic, and the basic land type means you get to run as many as you want. Very cool benefits that make sure these beauties will be relevant for years to come.

And that's all folks! Correct me if I'm wrong @Kirblinx :) All in all, many more of these see regular play than you might expect, and only a few cycles and singles are true duds.
 
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Diagnosis: Ok, can we just agree that the Amonkhet lands all were a dud for Pauper, considering that a desert deck never took off? This is one of those sets that was cool to draft, requiring a specific setup of lands that just never translated to constructed.
Perhaps not in Pauper, but a playset of Sunscorched Deserts won a pro tour in Standard.
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Invasion
977f1b44-166c-4faf-8a7b-d431707e90ce.jpg

Diagnosis: Not much play remained for these, but these offer an explosive amount of mana. I think for Pauper we're just short of enough spells to abuse these, and consequently these were more popular in Peasant.
These did see play in pauper back in the day, did they not?
 
Two comments:

1) Last I checked, CawGate ({W/U} Gates) was T1/high T2.

2) ONE adding more Proliferate to Pauper means that there's a bunch of brewing involving the depletion lands right now.
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
I’ll say that even I was surprised at how many of the common lands see play. There’s really only a couple of complete misses, and they are few and far between. Also, Like Mown pointed out, some of the ones that didn’t get to see play in Pauper actually got played in other formats, so there’s even fewer duds than there seem to be when looking at Pauper alone.
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
So we can all agree that most common lands are useless outside their limited format? :)
Not every single card in every cycle will see play, but if you're looking at the playability of cycles that way, you're being pedantic anyway imho. If you instead look at how many of the cycles and individual designs were adopted in Pauper at some point in their life cycle, I'ld say your statement is definitely not true. Especially if you ignore functional reprints (since they don't add anything new to the format), the number of cycles and individual designs that see or saw play in Pauper vastly outnumber those that didn't.

Edit: To clarify, what I mean by the first line is that I think it's pedantic to say, for example, that Tree of Tales is useless outside of its limited format. It's part of a cycle of artifact lands that are hugely influential, and since these lands were designed as a cycle, and not as individual cards, it is unhelpful and silly to evaluate these on their own. Obviously the line becomes a bit blurrier with cycles that are not functionally equal (apart from the colors they produce), like Bojuka Bog's cycle. In other words, if even one card out of a (functionally identical) cycle sees regular play, I'ld say that cycle was relevant outside of its limited format.
 
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Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Okay @Onderzeeboot, how many of these lands have been relevant outside of the Pauper format? Obviously common lands will be played in a common-only format. :)
Obviously, but I was just surprised how freaking many actually see play. It's wild that they still come up with new ideas suitable for commons that add to the mix, rather than replace previous designs. Obviously that does happen some of the time, but not as often as I had expected.
 
But Onde it wasn’t me who had this discussion. I just stated that most common lands are useless outside their limited environment. I was not the one who tagged another user to start a lengthy argument ;) I was also not the one who wrote the lengthy argument ;) I was only commenting again because they forgot a crucial part of the sentence and thus came to the wrong conclusion. Nothing controversial about my statement. Maybe it’s controversial to start a lengthy argument but that’s not for me to say.
 
I think it is quite cheesy to use pauper to make a point that common duals with drawbacks are used outside their limited environment. Ofcourse, they are used in pauper, since that is all that can be used. But how often in a non-pauper (or a non-block, yes that was a format in the days) setting?

Back on point. Suppose that players have infinite duals (without drawback) and for simplicity assume that we have 50 cards decks with 20 lands (just for the ease of calculation). Then a player can have 8 resources of each of the 5 colours. When there are only basics then there are only 10 in a 2 colour deck (yes yes, I am assuming an equal split). Many duals severely changes, i.e., eases deck building restrictions. I am not convinced that treating all cards as essential colourless is the way to go.
 
I think it is quite cheesy to use pauper to make a point that common duals with drawbacks are used outside their limited environment. Ofcourse, they are used in pauper, since that is all that can be used. But how often in a non-pauper (or a non-block, yes that was a format in the days) setting?

I agree. But I had to accept this argument since they were going aggressive on this one sentence and I didn’t exclude the common format. But of course what other lands would you play if you could not play the common lands? All lands has to be common in the format because all cards has to be common.
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
I think it is quite cheesy to use pauper to make a point that common duals with drawbacks are used outside their limited environment. Ofcourse, they are used in pauper, since that is all that can be used. But how often in a non-pauper (or a non-block, yes that was a format in the days) setting?
The point was not so much "see, Pauper uses common lands", the point was "holy shit, most common lands are used in Pauper" :) Personally I don't think it's cheesy to bring up Pauper either in this context, because it is in fact an officially supported format, and a reasonably popular one at that. It's a known fact that WotC considers Pauper when looking at potential rarity downshifts of reprints (especially in Masters sets), and it wouldn't surprise me if Pauper is also on their mind when they are designing common lands these days.
 
I think bringing up Pauper is also a good reminder that card viability is format dependent. It's easy to discuss cards in a vacuum and go "in comparison to every card ever, this card sucks/is fantastic/makes me want to scream", but the only time that we actually look at cards in a vacuum is before we start designing our cubes. Whether or not a certain set of lands is "viable" has more to do with your format as a whole.

Like, are bouncelands viable in a random format? Not really, except insofar as they're dual lands. If your format has landfall synergies or utility lands with ETBs, though, it's a different story.

Or, for a more drastic example... the Tron lands are pretty good in Pauper and Modern, but are overshadowed in Legacy and Vintage by Cloudpost and absolutely suck in EDH. Context is key.

EDIT: I also find it kinda funny that we keep looking at Constructed formats when evaluating cards when Cube is, you know, a draft format.
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
I mean, when's the last time they printed a land that was flat not worth including in your deck? The Kamigawa doesn't untap ones?
It's pretty hard to look at any fixing at all and be like "Ah sorry, just basics for me thanks"
 
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