General Other News
- Thread starter Velrun
- Start date
It's definitely format dependent. Morphs aren't quite on the power level that I need them to be and the only two I've ever run were Rattleclaw Mystic and Den Protector who have baseline playable bodies unmorphed. The more powerful your environment, the harder it becomes to justify running them without having to warp other points of focus. You pretty much need your environment at the point where a vanilla 2/2 for 3 mana is not a laughable rate for a creature.
Maybe there will be some actually useful cards for cube in this set. Last time that happened out of commander was like 2016...
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Checking my cube, and C2017 and C2018 actually tie the original commander for most includes in my cube. C2017 might very well win out if I can make room for Curse of Opulence again, now that Woodland Champion is a thing. The Curse has been a very sweet card for me in the past, and the only reason I cut it was to make room.
C2011: Soul Snare, Ghave, Guru of Spores, Karador, Ghost Chieftain
C2013: Marath, Will of the Wild
C2014: Feldon of the Third Path, Daretti, Scrap Savant
C2016: Ancient Excavation, Ravos, Soultender
C2017: Qasali Slingers, Mirri, Weatherlight Duelist, Kess, Dissident Mage
C2018: Retrofitter Foundry, Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow, Varina, Lich Queen
Most cubes don't run those cards from C17 and 18 though. Every card is going to be able to find a home in some sort of cube somewhere, but that doesn't mean that the set as a whole was necessarily good for the format. I run Heirloom Blade and Bloodforged Battle-axe from C17, but they're not exactly format staples.
A lot of people are like Ravnic and just run Ash Barrens out of commander sets.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
More people should run Retrofitter Foundry. Just saying.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
I run nerfed retrofitter foundry
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Nerfed? For real? What's your nerf? Your CT page still shows the regular version.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Theres a LOT of cheap cards in my cube that make thopters, and basically it on t1 and then turning all of those cards into 4/4s was insane. Like turn 1 hardened scales, but it synergises with value cards instead of niche aggro creatures
I feel like using the term "format staples" is pretty absurd when we are talking about a format where we build varying formats. Maybe that term could apply if you're playing a stock power-max list, but that's it.
I also run several cards from both C17 and C18.
I disagree. A lot of cubes have some overlap, even though they're not necessarily doing the same thing. Stuff like Lightning Bolt, Flickerwisp, Llanowar Elves variants, Cancel variants, the Fetch, Shock and/or dual lands, Hero's Downfall excessive amounts of cube play. Even if we're looking at commander products, stuff like Scavenging Ooze gets put in to many a list. You can't really effectively argue that it's absurd to apply the term "staple" to these cards/effects when such a huge subset of players use them.
Think of it like this. Most Americans eat pork in some capacity. Not everyone eats pork, and not everyone eats the same amount of pork. Some people can't even eat pork due to religious reasons. Others consciously make the decision not to eat pork for health reasons. But that doesn't mean pork it's variants aren't American dietary staples. Meanwhile, Quinoa is not something that most people eat. Some people like and enjoy it, even to the point where it is a significant part of their diet. But that doesn't mean that the majority of others are going to like or want to eat it.
Putting this food argument into magic terms, Pork is Lightning Bolt, while Quinoa is commander 2017/18. People are going to find value in commander 2017/18, but a great deal more people are going to find value in Bolt.
Yeah this card is really cool. Seems a bit mana or time intensive without support though.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Ok, time for numbers. I looked at the cube count by set, according to CubeTutor, listing a few of the most popular cards first printed in that set. Now, this took some creative digging, since top cards by set does not include the reprints in the numbers, so for cards with reprints my numbers might be a little off. Anyway, I did my best.
Commander 2018
1422 / 1266 / 1150
Fourth place is in the 600's, and Foundry does take first place. But... compared to older Commander sets? ...
Commander 2017
3325 / 1569 / 1546 / 1538 / 1239 / 1093
After that the numbers quickly drop to 800's, 700's and below.
Still, considerably more popular than C18, and four cards beat Retrofitter Foundry in adoption.
Commander 2016
8226 / 2237 / 2045 / 1757 / 1454 / 1322 / 1237 / 1118
After that there's still several cards in the low 1000's and 900's. So, yeah, once again, a marked improvement in adoption compared to the follow-up.
As for staples though, the top 5 Azorius cards each have more 13k includes, with the no 1 spot, Supreme Verdict, sitting at 17751 includes. Fractured Identity looked like it had high numbers, but it is 30th on that list. Ash Barrens with its whopping 8k includes, meanwhile, isn't even close to the top 50. Heck, the 100th spot for lands, Shivan Reef still has over 10k includes. So, what's a staple?
Actually, there is one other thing we could look at, and that's the average cubes CT puts together. And lo and behold, there, in the average 720 cube, we do indeed find both Fractured Identity and Ash Barrens!
All in all, though C16 is indeed more heavily played than C17 and especially C18, I think none of the three have made a really significant impact on the average cube, with both C16 and C17 delivering exactly one card you could arguably call a staple. Here's hoping C19 can have a bit more impact!
This foray into the adoption rate in cube of the last three years was brought to you by a pesky gnat and sleep deprivation. Peace out.
Commander 2018
1422 / 1266 / 1150
Fourth place is in the 600's, and Foundry does take first place. But... compared to older Commander sets? ...
Commander 2017
3325 / 1569 / 1546 / 1538 / 1239 / 1093
After that the numbers quickly drop to 800's, 700's and below.
Still, considerably more popular than C18, and four cards beat Retrofitter Foundry in adoption.
Commander 2016
8226 / 2237 / 2045 / 1757 / 1454 / 1322 / 1237 / 1118
After that there's still several cards in the low 1000's and 900's. So, yeah, once again, a marked improvement in adoption compared to the follow-up.
As for staples though, the top 5 Azorius cards each have more 13k includes, with the no 1 spot, Supreme Verdict, sitting at 17751 includes. Fractured Identity looked like it had high numbers, but it is 30th on that list. Ash Barrens with its whopping 8k includes, meanwhile, isn't even close to the top 50. Heck, the 100th spot for lands, Shivan Reef still has over 10k includes. So, what's a staple?
Actually, there is one other thing we could look at, and that's the average cubes CT puts together. And lo and behold, there, in the average 720 cube, we do indeed find both Fractured Identity and Ash Barrens!
All in all, though C16 is indeed more heavily played than C17 and especially C18, I think none of the three have made a really significant impact on the average cube, with both C16 and C17 delivering exactly one card you could arguably call a staple. Here's hoping C19 can have a bit more impact!
This foray into the adoption rate in cube of the last three years was brought to you by a pesky gnat and sleep deprivation. Peace out.
Of the 5 specifically named cards you listed, I run 0. Going to have to agree to disagree on this one.
EDIT: I'll admit that I may add Downfall if WARwalkers prove to be acceptable to my playgroup.
Appreciate the entirely unnecessary data, Onder. It's too bad CT is so biased towards older cards (more attempts to be put into the system) and generic power-max cubes. Would be interesting to see what happens when we only pull data from RTL lists updated within the last 90 days, or something. Bet the list looks a little funky.
Fractured and Vial Smasher are both so ridiculous...
EDIT: I'll admit that I may add Downfall if WARwalkers prove to be acceptable to my playgroup.
Appreciate the entirely unnecessary data, Onder. It's too bad CT is so biased towards older cards (more attempts to be put into the system) and generic power-max cubes. Would be interesting to see what happens when we only pull data from RTL lists updated within the last 90 days, or something. Bet the list looks a little funky.
Fractured and Vial Smasher are both so ridiculous...
I agree with Brad. There is no such fixed term such as ‘stables’ when it comes to a format where we, the cube creators, definethe rules.
Stables refer to formats where Wizards make the rules and where each tournament is about winning. In other words you are trying to optimize your own chances of winning by adding good cards and removing bad cards from your own selection of cards. But what happens when a cube designer has to make those decisions for all players? The answer is as follows:
It is pointless to either power max or power min just for the sake of it because boosting/nerfing one player’s card pool in this way will also boost/nerf all other players’. Therefore we are left with a far more interesting puzzle to solve: How do we make the games fun while still reward skills and without the cube growing stale and boring as players become experienced with the cube?
And therefore there is no such thing as a stable card when it comes to cube design unless we are discarding the whole philosophy about trying to maximize the fun for the players while still rewarding good plays.
Stables refer to formats where Wizards make the rules and where each tournament is about winning. In other words you are trying to optimize your own chances of winning by adding good cards and removing bad cards from your own selection of cards. But what happens when a cube designer has to make those decisions for all players? The answer is as follows:
It is pointless to either power max or power min just for the sake of it because boosting/nerfing one player’s card pool in this way will also boost/nerf all other players’. Therefore we are left with a far more interesting puzzle to solve: How do we make the games fun while still reward skills and without the cube growing stale and boring as players become experienced with the cube?
And therefore there is no such thing as a stable card when it comes to cube design unless we are discarding the whole philosophy about trying to maximize the fun for the players while still rewarding good plays.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Look even if we want to argue that staple is the wrong word to use, these sets are hardly worthless
Some people also don't do it because of the massive damage it does to our environment and because pigs are as smart as a human child in preschool and they don't see the "value" in killing billions of these intelligent beings.
Sorry for the off topic, guess I just didn't enjoy comparing burn spell classics with the possibly biggest and most cruel crime humanity is doing these days.
That is one step in the right direktion! And I applaud you!
If you really wanna go all in, then you can easily take three steps in the right direction if you instead start eating meat again and then in return stop wasting food and completely stop eating candy, sodas etc. which are the real sinners in comparison to meat consumption.
Back on topic
Wizards announced a set called Brawl 2019:
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/card-preview/new-era-brawl-2019-07-22
So far we have two spoilers. A Command Tower as a 2 cost mana rock and a legendary. See them in the link above.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
I think this belongs in the Throne of Eldraine spoiler thread. Iirc the brawl cards are standard legal and rotate in an out with Eldraine.
Allow me to further derail it; I like this argument a lot, because it's one of the main questions humanity is facing right now: how do we evaluate the value of life, whether human or not? This is seen in a wide range of issues from animal welfare to abortion to loss of biodiversity to genetic modification. It also calls into play a complex number of views, with religion insisting upon the divinity of life in certain forms, people going with the gut feelings that evolution itself has provided us, or those who are min/maxing for the future and are primarily concerned with existential threats such as climate change or nuclear war. I myself belong to the latter group.
Science has been far and away the greatest catalyst for change in human history, and almost every other form of progress has stemmed from it. For example, with material wealth to spare, education and literacy become more widespread. As a result of that, social change occurs, typically causing a society to become more secular, urbane and tolerant. The urban relocation that young people often go through in this stage also makes commerce easier as markets expand and professionals are making more money. Transportation improves to facilitate all of this. As a result of all of this, technological advancement is further encouraged. It's a cycle that has been happening all of the world, with its roots in (depending on how far back you want to go) the Enlightenment period.
This cycle of progress shows no sign of stopping. In fact, it is proceeding at an exponential rate. This force of change which has raised the quality of our lives by nearly every metric is on an endless upwards trajectory. UNLESS, something seriously derails the human timeline. If temperatures rise, claiming millions of casualties but more importantly costing trillions in damages, causing loss of arable land and food sources, refugee crises, etc, civilization will survive, but not in one piece. Our economy is so globalized, our dependence on electricity and internet and other fragile systems so pronounced, that when major disruptions become endemic, the cost will be immense by every metric. Similar things are true about nuclear war, but that is far less likely and does not carry the inevitability of climate change. The last couple dangers that could disrupt the social component of the cycle are more Orwellian. Different versions of reality are being constructed through the digital lens. Chinese citizens are faced with a nationalized, censored internet, the US is still undergoing its well-documented splitting at the seams, and on and on. Who says virtual reality doesn't exist yet? It already holds far more sway in people's minds than the physical one. And so, the physical cycle of progress could be disrupted by psychological manipulation; you can't build a plane or a network of solar panels or a government policy if you believe 2 + 2 = 5.
Alright, uh, let me say something magic-related. I wish they would stop printing cards like this:
WOTC has made all of these cards that are now just auto-includes in Commander decks (Command Tower and its ilk) and it feels like the idea of staples goes completely against Commander's strengths and original ideals. How can you express creativity with an Arcane Signet? It's so ridiculously vanilla! I realize that I'm just a hardcore Johnny ranting here, and this provides cheap and accessible fixing, but it still dilutes the format as a whole.
I am excited about the possibility of Monarch cards from this Brawl set though. I keep wanting to build a multiplayer-focused cube and this might end up being the nudge I need.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Dom Harvey
Contributor
I don't have an issue with Arcane Signet. The creativity in deckbuilding doesn't have to come from every slot or every type of card; if I know I can cast my spells reliably (without dropping $$$ on the perfect manabase), I have a lot more room to make tough/interesting choices elsewhere. How are you expressing creativity with whatever inferior mana rock would replace this instead?
Also the case for not eating meat is massively overdetermined, it's easy to find a reason to abstain from it that aligns with your own values/priorities
Also the case for not eating meat is massively overdetermined, it's easy to find a reason to abstain from it that aligns with your own values/priorities
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Aren't signets usually rings?
Is it weird that this one is fully on the back of their hand?
Is it weird that this one is fully on the back of their hand?
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
It has a hidden feature that makes your ring finger longer. Duh.