General 2-Player Cube

Bumibu

Bumibu

Hello,

I own a powered cube with all the dumb stuff that is designed for 8-player drafts. I play it a lot, but just as a two player draft format (called Waterfall) and I realize that I tend to built the same decks all day long (Narset/Wheel; Artifacts/Upheaval nonsense) and that some Archetypes never get played, because you don't get enough of its key cards (basically any Aggro; Blink).

So I want to built a new Cube with the following conditions:
- Unpowered. I want no cards in the cube that are nobrain firstpicks you HAVE to make. So no Scullclamp, Mindtwist etc.
- Highly synergistic. I want Archetypes to be the focus.
- 180 or 270 cards, since the "Waterfall"-Draft needs 90 cards per player.

I decided to play the following Archetypes:
{B}{R/W}: Pox/Sacrifice
{R}{W}: Tokens
{G}{U/R}: Madness
{R}{U}: Spells
{W}{U}: Blink
{B}{G}{U}: Dredge/Graveyard
{B}{U}: Flashback
{G}{X}: Creatures (Survival, Pod, Duskwatch Recruiter)

I want as many cards that fit into multiple Archetypes as possible. Black gets a focus on the sacrifice theme for example. That pairs well with white or red, because they get Token cards. For the white token strategy, there should be a lot cards like Cloudgoat Ranger and Blade Splicer, since they pair well with the UW Blink Archetype.

I have some issues/questions you could help me with, since this is the first Cube I built by my own:
-How many Spells do I need in UR to make the Spells-deck work, but to not make it to strong?
-Since a lot of ther green cards that are good in Madness are great in Dredge as well, I decided to add a third Archetype for green. I call it "Creatures" and I don't know if that is even an Archetype. I try to play some toolbox cards like Survival, Pod and Duskwatch recruiter, and some just good gree creatures. It could blend into the Blink Archetype. Any sugestions?

Here is a list of cards I consider playing: http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/146374
I have to cut a lot of blue creatures obviously. Maybe that gives you a hint what cards I am looking for.

Since I am new to the forum I have a question: Is this thread at the right place? Do you have a section where you present your cubes and talk about them?

I will soon create a thread where I explain the "Waterfall"-Draft. I is truly awesome.
 
Bumibu

Bumibu

So, to continue my post, I want to explain "The Waterfall" first:

It is quite simple. I got the Idea from a mixture of different draft formats, combined with my love for deckbuilding games (Emergens: Genesis in particular). I wanted to create a draft format where you end up with about 45 cards, but I wanted to increase the draft pool, to increase the possibility of drafting archetypes, so I wanted cards to get "burned". But I did not want to give the players a direct choice witch cards they want to burn. I don't like hatepicking being a center point in a two player draft format. If you want to do that, I think you should be forced to sacrifice a pick for it.

And this it how it works:
You start by making one big pile of 180 cards (90 cards per player). You have a center row that contains six cards face up. When it is your turn, you pick a card and burn the card at the end of the row (you chose a direction at the beginning). Then you add two new cards from the top of the card pile to the start of the row. This way, it is allways the card that was in the center row for the longest time that gets burned.
This way each card has the possibility of wheeling once or twice.
To negate the advantage of the first player, you start with two cards in the center row and only burn a card when there are six cards in the center.

I finished the Cube on cubetutor now. I decided to play the Tri-Lands, because they alone give each two-color-pair three dual-lands by only taking away ten slots, that is awesome for a two player draft variant.
I am not sure if the draft archetypes are deep enough, that needs some more testing. I added some fringe cards, to minimize goodstuff drafting, but they could end up being to weak.

Some example draft decks (I played with three bots, to simulate "The Waterfall", where you get a fourth of the cardpool, I played with 6 cards per pack and 8 packs):

Bumibu's draft of 2 Player Waterfall Cube on 04/07/2019 from CubeTutor.com











Bumibu's draft of 2 Player Waterfall Cube on 04/07/2019 from CubeTutor.com











Bumibu's draft of 2 Player Waterfall Cube on 04/07/2019 from CubeTutor.com










Bumibu's draft of 2 Player Waterfall Cube on 04/07/2019 from CubeTutor.com

Creature (6)
1 x Pteramander
1 x Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
1 x Snapcaster Mage
1 x Young Pyromancer
1 x Flametongue Kavu
1 x Talrand, Sky Summoner

Planeswalker (1)
1 x Saheeli, Sublime Artificer

Artifact (2)
1 x Treasure Map
1 x Sword of Dungeons & Dragons

Instant (10)
1 x Brainstorm
1 x Burst Lightning
1 x Lightning Bolt
1 x Impulse
1 x Lightning Strike
1 x Miscalculation
1 x Think Twice
1 x Fiery Temper
1 x Frantic Search
1 x Fact or Fiction

Sorcery (4)
1 x Ponder
1 x Preordain
1 x Scour All Possibilities
1 x Tormenting Voice

Enchantment (1)
1 x Search for Azcanta

Land (16)
1 x Flooded Strand
1 x Frontier Bivouac
7 x Island
7 x Mountain

Sideboard (22)
1 x Battle Screech
1 x Coalition Relic
1 x Eternal Witness
1 x Gisa's Bidding
1 x Grave Scrabbler
1 x Greater Gargadon
1 x Hanweir Militia Captain
1 x Hollow One
1 x Humble Defector
1 x Innocent Blood
1 x Lightning Greaves
1 x Palace Sentinels
1 x Pilgrim's Eye
1 x Reckless Wurm
1 x Rix Maadi Reveler
1 x Soulherder
1 x Swords to Plowshares
1 x Tortured Existence
1 x Wild Mongrel
1 x Windswept Heath
1 x Wing Splicer
1 x Wonder

(0)

Bumibu's draft of 2 Player Waterfall Cube on 04/07/2019 from CubeTutor.com










 
Velrun

Velrun

Yeah Waterfall sounds really interesting. Thumbs up or whatever the young kids say nowadays.

It also sounds like you got everything under control. The task of building your synergistic cube seems like is one you can easily handle yourself. Try asking more specific questions or post questions in other threads like Fight Club or Single Card Spotlight. In this way it will be easier to respond to for the rest of us. Also there are some great ideas to be had by lurking around on the cube blogs or by reading some of the great articles written on this page.
 
japahn

japahn

I'm interested, but I read a couple of times and I can't wrap my head around waterfall draft. Can you pick any one card in the table? You start with a center row of 6 cards, but I didn't get how you add a row or how many times there are.
 
Velrun

Velrun

I believe there is only one row.

The row is ‘always’ six cards face up and whenever it is your turn to pick a card you can pick any of the six cards. Then the oldest card is burned/removed. Then two new cards are put face up on the table and the next person gets to pick a card -> repeat..
 
Bumibu

Bumibu

japahn said:
I'm interested, but I read a couple of times and I can't wrap my head around waterfall draft. Can you pick any one card in the table? You start with a center row of 6 cards, but I didn't get how you add a row or how many times there are.
Click to expand...
You start with one pile of 180 cards.
Then, you put the top two cards onto the table. This starts the row. The first player picks one of those two cards. After that, two new cards get placed on the table and the remaining card slides to the right.
The second player has three cards to choose from now. He/She chooses picks a card and adds two new cards to the left side of the row. The first player has four cards to choose from now, picks one and adds another two. Now there are five cards in the center row. The second player chooses one card and adds two new ones. Now there are six cards in the center row.
When there are six cards in the center row, you pick one card, then you remove the card at the end of the row from the draft. Then you add two new cards to the row.

It sounds way more complicated than it is. We started this system with just placing six cards in the center row, but we figured out that the starting player had a huge advantage, because he has a higher chance to get a Mox or something. We came up with the idea above, to give each player two fresh cards to choose from at all times.
 
Velrun

Velrun

Maybe just rename the center row to ‘row’ :) Or wave or waterfall or whatever. I think the word ‘center’ was the one causing the confusion.
 
Onderzeeboot

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Bumibu said:
You start with one pile of 180 cards.
Then, you put the top two cards onto the table. This starts the row. The first player picks one of those two cards. After that, two new cards get placed on the table and the remaining card slides to the right.
The second player has three cards to choose from now. He/She chooses picks a card and adds two new cards to the left side of the row. The first player has four cards to choose from now, picks one and adds another two. Now there are five cards in the center row. The second player chooses one card and adds two new ones. Now there are six cards in the center row.
When there are six cards in the center row, you pick one card, then you remove the card at the end of the row from the draft. Then you add two new cards to the row.

It sounds way more complicated than it is. We started this system with just placing six cards in the center row, but we figured out that the starting player had a huge advantage, because he has a higher chance to get a Mox or something. We came up with the idea above, to give each player two fresh cards to choose from at all times.
Click to expand...

I am ready to try this out with a friend that is coming over in a week or two :)
 
Bumibu

Bumibu

Center Row is used in Ascension, a deckbuilding game, where the setup is similar. Thats why I used it. I was never great in explaining games. :D
 
Bumibu

Bumibu

So, since yesterday the cube is finally ready to draft in RL and I did one Waterfall and one Winston Draft. The Decks came together pritty well, Survival of the Fittest, Helm of Possession and Docent of Perfection stood out as bombs.
http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/146374

The feedback I got was: "There are interesting cards, but it feels like the cards are too narrow. Like you are forced to play a certain deck. Black seems to be just about sacrificing and there is nothing to explore."
In the big cube I had, you were rarely able to draft a focused archetype, but the decks felt a lot more different, because there were more unique syneries between more different cards.
In this cube I tried to fucus on archetypes and the result is, that you have to draft those archetypes to get a deck. Do you think it is a good idea to strip down a little on the archetypes to include more different possibilities? What is your experience, especially with drafting 1vs1?
 
  • Like
Reactions: dbs
japahn

japahn

Well, 23/39 cards in black strongly suggest sacrifice, so you definitely went too deep. You can probably cut 12-14 black sacrifice cards (which is a a third of the black section!) and still have a decent sacrifice deck, combined with another color.

For a two-player cube, though, I would not use the 10 color pair archetype layout. Normally 2 of those will be drafted and 8 will be left out.

If I were to design a two-player cube, I would build either:

A Synergy Cube
  • An asymmetric three Tetra archetypes that have lots of bridges between them.
  • Enough fixing so that three-color decks are the norm.
  • Use the low card count as an excuse to cut narrow cards aggressively.
A Non-Synergistic Cube
  • Just add cards you find fun.
  • Some synergies and two-card combos are fun, but the vast majority of cards should be playable in most decks of their color.
  • Lots of fixing so that decks play 3 colors by default.
A Thematic Cube
  • Some themes need a cube built around them, such as Morph. A small cube is the perfect place for that, as the card pool for those themes is often not deep enough to support a 360-card cube comfortably.
  • Synergies are equivalent to having a Pentagram archetype covering the whole cube.
One of the biggest issues of two-players is that between 5 colors, each player basically picks their cards in two of three colors and the only competition is the hate drafting - which just feels bad. Either lower the amount of colors available from 5 or increase the number of colors per deck from 2 to foster the competition dynamic that creates tension in drafts.

Many people on this forum have tested cubes with fewer than 5 colors for two-player drafting:
Modular Cube - 5 Colors by Ahadabans
I'm Going Gaga for Grid Drafting by Chris: MTGO Academy
Red / Blue / Green two player grid draft cube by Hathaway
180 cards, 3 colour cube. (BUG Graveyard) by Jonas
 
Bumibu

Bumibu

I think I will start by adding more versitile (Hope thats the right wird) cards and add more fixing. That is a great idea indeed.
I allready play the tri-lands. I think about adding Signets. How much fixing do you need is a good place in a 270 1vs1 Cube?
I thought about adding a second copy of each tri-land instead of the fetch- qnd duallands I play, but I would prefer playing just singles.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top