[288] Hidden Depths

[inscho]

Hidden Depths​

A 6 person discard/cycling themed cube intended to be drafted 4 packs of 12


​

Overview:

Many of the core ideas that drive this cube’s design are carried over from the Graveyard Combo Cube, but reenvisioned in a lower-power context. Some qualities that are prioritized:
- Complexity through modality
- Decision-making tempo and volume
- Variety of axes of play
- Explosive sequences and combos
- “Secret” archetypes

Complexity through modality:

The backbone of this cube is built on mechanics like Cycling and Channel. I’ve always appreciated how these mechanics exemplify complexity through modality. With these cards you are always navigating which option to use and when. Do you cycle something away in an effort to smooth out your beginning turns to avoid mana screw? or to hunt for something that can hit the battlefield early, to gain an early advantage? or do you save it as a threat/answer for the late game?

Decision-making tempo and volume:

An added bonus of these cards is they have a wider range of relevancy throughout the various stages of the game. One issue I’ve always run into with my lower powered cubes is how simplistic the decision-making can be in the early turns, and how few decisions there are to make until you start approaching turn 4-5. That problem is alleviated when most of the cards over 2 mana have a channel, cycle, evoke, or reinforce option.

Variety of axes of play:

As with my other cube, it is important that all theaters of play are viable here:
- Aggro
- Tempo
- Midrange
- Control
- Combo (including aggro-combo, combo control, etc)

Explosive sequences and combos:

Novel 3-4 card combos and high-reward synergies are my M.O., and this cube has no shortage of them. I want strange and memorable games to be a common occurrence. I don’t get to play often enough for dull games.

“Secret” archetypes:

My favorite limited formats have all had “secret” archetypes. The one that most often comes to mind for me was MH1’s Stream Control .

In that spirit, I’ve embedded some “easter egg” archetypes that won’t successfully come together often, but are sure to be memorable if they do. The 4x12 draft format adds a some space in the draft pool for a little extra fringe nonsense.

General Notes:

Status: I consider this concept to be significantly realized at this point, but I can never leave anything alone for too long. There’s plenty left up in the air. There are probably around a dozen cards that are actively on the cutting block, and maybeboard that is full of half-baked ideas. I’m open to any observations/suggestions you may have. Test drafts are much appreciated.

Cube size: The older you get, the easier it is to get 6 people together to draft than 8. The cube size is also partially limited by the available card pool. Increasing to 360 would have me tapping into more of the objectively bad cycling and channel cards, and I want to avoid cards that are always pitched and never worth casting.

Bicycle Lands: I typically avoid customs, but not releasing the full suite of Bicycle lands is annoying. I’m using some customs I found online for the missing 3.

References: This isn’t a particularly new idea in the cubiverse. There’s a lot of cycling theme cubes out there. Below are a couple of the main ones I looked at:
- Throgan’s Cycling Cube
- AlexanderOfMacedonia’s ReCycling Cube

Thanks for looking!

 

[inscho]

A few test draft decks to get a sense of the environment. Thanks to everyone that's drafted!

Inscho's Rakdos Discard Aggro

Zubat's Grixis Control

Zubat's Izzet Tempo Loot

Nanonox's "Golgari" Combo

(+custom izzet and simic bicycle lands)

Zubat's Mono White Control

Zubat's Simic Tempo

Inscho's Boros Aggro

(+custom izzet bicycle land)

 

[inscho]

A couple nice decks that @Erik Twice drafted:


(+ Custom Orzhov bicycle)

This is a really good example of how cycling can be leveraged in this cube.

You have these cards allowing you to go wide:


And these to go tall:


Cycling effectively reduces your deck size, helps you find those key pieces, and allows you to run fewer land than normal.

Love the deck!

Naya Control

(+ Custom Orzhov bicycle)

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Cards currently on the chopping block:


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Feast of Sanity: 4 mana is a lot...even in this environment, and it doesn't do anything on its own. At 288, I already have Faith of the Devoted, Magmakin Artillerist, Lightning Rift, and Monument to Endurance for overlap. What I like about Feast is that it targets creatures, the effect costs 0, and it triggers on every discarded card allowing it to do some silly things.

Three possible substitutions:


I'd like black to have a little more disruption. Beetle is blinkable, recurred by the cmc-limited reanimation (jolted awake, unearth, etc) , and an artifact body for delirium, etc. I'm also just a big fan of the card in general.



A different 4 mv buildaround, but good on it's own. It's pretty easy to set up big plays with dredge, a discard outlet (with Shadow of the Grave juicing it further) or just with cycling (with Fluctuatoror Zirda, the Dawnwaker juicing it further). The unique zombie druid token is obnoxious alongside a regular Zombie token and Zombie Army token, but this cube is already a little a bit of a mess in that regard.



Black's Deem Worthy. It's unfussy which is a positive. I like that it gets around Standstill. The token type is less annoying, and instant speed. It'd be nice having another Mizzix's Mastery target.

Including either Stir the Sands or Welcome the Dead would make me think harder about Rise from the Tides which was cut in an earlier draft of the cube. Most spell-counting cards (like Haughty Djinn) were cut to make space for the enchantment subtheme.

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Hypergenesis: I really like the idea of Hypergenesis. With the cube being based around cycling and channel there's an abundance of large creatures floating around...it's pretty easy to draft a deck full of them. This environment seems uniquely suited for this card, and I like the idea of supporting cards and archetypes you won't find in most cubes. There are some cascade cards to facilitate and Mizzix's Mastery, but it is a less viable "hardcast" than Living End. I think it's probably too cute for the payoff, but it's one of the "live the dream" cards in the cube.

Two possible substitutions:


Love this card. It was in my cube for years. I like how deep it digs, and how much it fills up the graveyard. It has some overlap with other things green has going on like Goreclaw, Terror of Qal Sisma



Another favorite of mine. Green could use a little more interaction, and Become Immense is always a fun option.

Delve has been a mechanic I've approached carefully, but I find it much more suitable on non-creature cards. In this context I think the delve creatures would oversahdow the other creatures. I also want to limit the number of graveyard exiling effects.

 

[Erik Twice]

Become Immense would be fun and fit your cube very well.

On the other hand, this card seems pretty bad:



At its core, it's a card that only works half of the time. But, since you run a lot of cyclers, you actually can run less land so it works even less often! I know it's a discard/mill outlet but it seems weak. For once, I wonder if this wouldn't be a better pick:



I knmow the GG cost and lack of fixing makes it very awkard, though.

For me it's always a bit awkard to draft this kind of cubes because the mana curve is at 3 rather than 2 and most lands enter in play tapped. Hence, I feel there's a large incentive to draft as many cheap cards as possible because any advantage they give you will play over more turns and smooth you out. For example, if you play a 2-drop but your opponent doesn't and then you hold a counterspell, you are pretty much 2 turns ahead.

It's not that massive because creatures are small and don't snowball, but it's something I'm not used to.

 

[inscho]

On the other hand, this card seems pretty bad:

At its core, it's a card that only works half of the time. But, since you run a lot of cyclers, you actually can run less land so it works even less often! I know it's a discard/mill outlet but it seems weak.

You may be right on the Seer. However, it's one of the few green cards that provides both a free discard trigger and a free draw trigger per turn. Admittedly, there's some novelty to its inclusion as it's a card I've always liked, but never found a home for. I think it plays better than it seems like it would. Your point about running less lands if very valid, and not one I really considered to be honest.

I think if I were looking to "optimize" this slot I'd first look at:



With the reduced land count and high number of non-basics this could really go to work. I envision a scenario where you start fetching basics with the land cyclers to maximize the mill which is an interesting dimension. It's also a buildaround that could really weaponize other cards like Living End, Spider Spawning, Roar of Reclamation, etc.

For me it's always a bit awkard to draft this kind of cubes because the mana curve is at 3 rather than 2 and most lands enter in play tapped. Hence, I feel there's a large incentive to draft as many cheap cards as possible because any advantage they give you will play over more turns and smooth you out. For example, if you play a 2-drop but your opponent doesn't and then you hold a counterspell, you are pretty much 2 turns ahead.

I don't actually see this cube's curve at 3 functionally. For the sake of discussion, I've made an alternative view for the cube sorted by mode with the lowest possible cost. (With exception of the cards that have cost-reducing components which I tagged as such):

https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/739068fb-5935-44ef-a59b-2725387433a8

The hardcast-only core of the cube is largely <3 mana by design. Most of the cards >2 mana have alternative cost modes that allow you utilize them in the early turns. The cards that are >2 mana without an alternative cost mode are largely high value 2 for 1s or combo/synergy pieces.

The land issue is definitely a challenge to navigate. I originally had bouncelands in place of the landscapes, and that made the mana very unreasonable. I was hoping that the unique design of the cube with so many cards with < 3 mana modes would offset the typical frustration of a tap-land heavy environment, and make it a more of an interesting puzzle to navigate in the early turns.

The general way I conceive of the mana is:

Faster decks:
- Lean more towards 2 colors
- Prioritize the landscapes
- Prioritize the 1 mana cyclers regardless of their hardcast mode for smoothing
- Run more basics

Slower decks:
- Lean more towards 3 color
- Prioritize the triomes and bicycles
- Prioritize the land type cyclers with more relevant hardcast modes
- Run more tap lands

I try to give aggro/tempo an edge on hardcast card quality, because once the various engines or "combos" get going for the slower decks they get out of hand very quickly.

The cube design is definitely more unusual, but I was drawn to the idea as a way of exploring an environment with many of the same principles as the graveyard combo cube that's lower powered with a lower level of individual card complexity.

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After looking at the list sorted this way and writing out more of my design thoughts, I'm pretty sure Feast of Sanity needs to go. It's too low impact for its mana cost.

I'm also now thinking of cutting the cascade cards outside of Bloodbraid Marauder:



Which means there's even less incentive to run Hypergenesis. Maybe in place of BotI, I could include:



The hardcast mode might be disproportionately strong, but I suppose it's not much different than Balrog of Moria.

Thanks for the thoughts, and I'm interested to hear any counterpoints.