405 Mostly Modern Cube

Hello, my name is Sean McClane. and welcome to my Mostly Modern cube thread here at RiptideLab. First let's start with the brief previous history of the cube.

The first incarnation of the cube was Modern to the core, but requiring every planeswalker to be in the cube, and if your cube isn't tribal supporting Nissa Revane is very difficult and hinders green's overall performance. If you don't draft the elf deck and are in green, you lose.

This was changed, and every so often I'd have a mechanic repersented in each color. Dual-Faced Cards for example, but some of them weren't that good Ludevic's Test Subject for the cube, so the cube settled on 360 good stuff.

Recently I've decided to bump the cube up to 450 to give the cube a little bit more depth and allow support for more archetypes.

And that bump was too big, cut down to 405 and feel good about the cube at this size

Enough of that boring stuff right, can we get to the thing we all care about, the cube list.
http://cubetutor.com/visualspoiler/831

Some info about the cube, general breakdown
Basic Information
Cube Size: 405
Breakdown: 52 each color, 90 multicolor (5 spells [man lands/ability lands are spells], 4 lands), 40 Colorless/Artifact, 15 Other Lands
Standard or Theme: Standard
Snow Lands: Yes, and honestly it is because I love Skred
Average Number of Players: 4-6
How Often Drafted: Monthly

Card Selection
Proxies: No
Powered: Not possible for Modern
Portal: Not possible for Modern
"Un" Cards: No
Banned Cards for Power-Level: Sigarda, Host of Herons, this card was in ONE draft, and it warped the game completely. It will never make it back into the cube. Also see fun factor.
Banned Cards for Time Constraints: No
Banned Cards for "fun" factor:
1. Protection from Any Color Creatures.
This is simply something I like, and Mirran Crusader is the reason to blame. (Other pcreatures like Chameleon Colossus, and Stillmoon Cavalier are also to blame but Crusader was the biggest offender) Hexproof, while IMO is a vastly better ability, Hexproof creatures can still be blocked. If someone drafted Black/Green and was staring down Mirran Crusader, may as well just scoop them up. The Sword of X and Y cycle is in the cube, and grants creatures protection from colors, but the opposing player at least has the chance to respond before they get hosed, and artifact removal.
2. Infect
3. Geist of Saint Traft, this card doesn't feel like it belongs in White/Blue, which to me is more of a control color combination. Hexproof with Blue seems to good.
4. Miracles
5 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage, group feels this card is too powerful and almost impossible to catchup if you fall behind.

Specific Cube Rules
While a "Modern" cube, several exceptions are made for the cube.
1. Ignoring the Modern Banned List. Bitterblossom, Skullclamp are welcome here.
2. Cards that were printed for the first time after 8th Edition, but are not Modern legal are also welcome. Edric, Spymaster of Trest, Baleful Strixfor example.
3. Judge Promos, or really good cube cards that got the modern frame, not welcome. This cube is more focused on the Modern format, with some small changes to help balance it out and increase the fun factor.
4. The only exception of cards not printed after 8th edition are the Onslaught Fetchlands. I hated only having the Zendikar fetches in here. It felt incomplete, thus the exception
5. Kird Ape is a red card, Loam Lion is a white card. I know they require forests to be really worth while, I just feel more comfortable with them here, as Aggro is having a litte bit of a hard time in my cube.

Cube Design
Standard or Multiplayer: Standard
Sideboards?: Yes
Color Balance: Yes
Gold Balance: Yes
Hybrid/Split/Kicker as Gold: Yes
Color Triggers as Gold: ?
Perfectly Balanced CMC: No

Some archetypes/decks I'm trying to support
Normal Aggro, Midrange, Control variants with some offshoot archetypes like
Artifact.dec - This didn't work very well...
Kiki-Pestermite combo - A personal favorite of mine to draft - Archetype removed for fun factor
Reanimator - Starting to be a real deck
Wildfire.dec - I believe I need the most help here
Small Naya Aggro Landfall theme - Haven't seen this happen yet

Thanks for reading, look forward to discussing my cube and others here on RiptideLab
 

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
MODERN! Mostly! *High five*

Always happy to connect with other kindred souls. It's scary how we both independently arrived at many of the same conclusions, to bolster our Modern cubes. Ignore the ban list; allow the newly printed Planechase and Commander cards; bring the Onslaught fetchlands into the fold. Check, check, and check.

I've only given your list a quick once over, but my initial concern (without really knowing much about how your cube plays) is that you're pretty light on one and two drops, and a bit heavy on threes and especially fours. This can translate into midrange decks being disproportionately strong, while simultaneously putting a muzzle on aggro decks. I don't know if that's how things are playing out for you in practice, but it's something to watch for.

I see that you're giving the Modern reanimator archetype a fair shake, and it's something that has taken me many iterations myself to tune into a remotely playable deck. These decks are typically black & blue based, so you'll want more looting effects in blue, including things like ol' reliable Merfolk Looter and Compulsive Research. The benefit of including more filtering spells is that they double as smoothing in control decks. As far as actual reanimation spells go, I like Torrent of Souls over Rise from the Grave, as it's almost strictly better. If you're concerned about classification, just count Torrent as a monoblack spell; nobody ever picks it for the red half. Finally, I'd look to add a couple of reanimation targets that won't just be cacked by your neighbouring midrange and control players. Griselbrand and Terastodon can usually be relied on to make their way back to you. At least you've got Angel of Despair!

I like the restraint in your gold section, at roughly four cards per colour pair. I don't know why some pairs have four fixers, and others have five, though. Feels to me like all the colours should receive some love! And hey, anything has to be better than the Panoramas (...really?!). Among your options are filters, Scars fast lands, and Worldwake manlands.

If I could give you one more recommendation: I'd lose the Wildfire. It's a card I've tried to support as well, but to no avail. Unlike with reanimator, there's no saving this archetype, with just the singleton copy of the namesake spell. Speaking for myself, I've cut it from my own cube and never looked back.

Aside from the cube critique, welcome to the forums! Check out my cube list as well as Sterling's if you wanna compare notes. I'm always excited whenever another there's another Modern cube added to the ranks, because dang if Modern isn't a sweet constraint on cube design.
 
MODERN! Mostly! *High five*

Always happy to connect with other kindred souls. It's scary how we both independently arrived at many of the same conclusions, to bolster our Modern cubes. Ignore the ban list; allow the newly printed Planechase and Commander cards; bring the Onslaught fetchlands into the fold. Check, check, and check.

*HIGH FIVE*
That is pretty awesome that we have came to those conclusions. As you said on our own.

I've only given your list a quick once over, but my initial concern (without really knowing much about how your cube plays) is that you're pretty light on one and two drops, and a bit heavy on threes and especially fours. This can translate into midrange decks being disproportionately strong, while simultaneously putting a muzzle on aggro decks. I don't know if that's how things are playing out for you in practice, but it's something to watch for.

This sometimes happens, and I am unsure how to help it. Turning three drops into six-seven drops doesn't seem like the right path, and I think I am running all the good one drops for aggro. Two drops might be a different story, think I might double check there

I see that you're giving the Modern reanimator archetype a fair shake, and it's something that has taken me many iterations myself to tune into a remotely playable deck. These decks are typically black & blue based, so you'll want more looting effects in blue, including things like ol' reliable Merfolk Looter and Compulsive Research. The benefit of including more filtering spells is that they double as smoothing in control decks. As far as actual reanimation spells go, I like Torrent of Souls over Rise from the Grave, as it's almost strictly better. If you're concerned about classification, just count Torrent as a monoblack spell; nobody ever picks it for the red half. Finally, I'd look to add a couple of reanimation targets that won't just be cacked by your neighbouring midrange and control players. Griselbrand and Terastodon can usually be relied on to make their way back to you. At least you've got Angel of Despair!

I love reanimator and feel there is enough good card to support the deck. Agreed in needing more looters to support it, Merfolk Looter and Compulsive Research will help. Also agree with a couple new reanimation targets would help. My list of possible reanimation targets to add
Avacyn, Angel of Hope (probably too good), Bogardan Hellkite, Griselbrand, and Terastodon.

I have to disagree with you about Torrent of Souls over Rise from the Grave only because Rise can hit any graveyard. Plenty of times I've 187'd an opponent's bomb end of turn, only to next turn reanimated (Rise or Beacon of Unrest) said bomb.

I like the restraint in your gold section, at roughly four cards per colour pair. I don't know why some pairs have four fixers, and others have five, though. Feels to me like all the colours should receive some love! And hey, anything has to be better than the Panoramas (...really?!). Among your options are filters, Scars fast lands, and Worldwake manlands.

I believe your quick glance has tricked you. The multicolor break down per guild is five spells [man lands/ability lands are spells], four lands. Thus why you see Azorius, Dimir, Izzet, and Boros guilds with five lands, instead of four like the other guilds. The reason for the gold section being so big.. When I re-started MTG, Ravnica block was the thing, and I remember just loving two-three colored decks. Thus the larger gold section.

If I was to take the lands away, the replacements would look like this
Azorius: Venser, the Sojourner, Dimir: Forbidden Alchemy or Dimir Cutpurse, Izzet: Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind or Turn // Burn, Boros: Lightning Helix

Totally agree better fixers are available over the panoramas, but I really want to give this small group of aggro cards more syngery. Plus wouldn't you love a zoo deck that had these cards...
Kird Ape, Loam Lion, Steppe Lynx, Wild Nacatl, Adventuring Gear, Lotus Cobra, Plated Geopede, Vinelasher Kudzu

If I could give you one more recommendation: I'd lose the Wildfire. It's a card I've tried to support as well, but to no avail. Unlike with reanimator, there's no saving this archetype, with just the singleton copy of the namesake spell. Speaking for myself, I've cut it from my own cube and never looked back.

Could you expand on this just a little, if there is something worth expanding on. Is it worth trying cards like Destructive Force or Rite of Ruin? I feel like a Black/Red deck with Wildfire and Death Cloud is possible...

Aside from the cube critique, welcome to the forums! Check out my cube list as well as Sterling's if you wanna compare notes. I'm always excited whenever another there's another Modern cube added to the ranks, because dang if Modern isn't a sweet constraint on cube design.

Thank you for the welcome. Sterling (need to thank you) suggested this community and I'm excited to talk cube even more. And agreed Modern makes for an awesome environment for a cube.
 

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
Ooh, good call on Rise from the Grave. I don't know that I've really used that card outside of M10 limited, so its wording threw me for a loop there. If messing with your opponent's graveyard is something your group enjoys, I'd also recommend Puppeteer Clique, especially if you have sacrifice shenanigans. Stealing two beefy bodies and granting them haste is no small game.

As far as Wildfire goes in Modern, it's a lot harder to make the archetype work than in Legacy and Vintage cubes. The newfangled mana rocks aren't nearly as broken as the classic ones, and the power level of the deck isn't worth going out of your way to draft for, espcially when's there's only one copy of the namesake card as the payoff. Going bigger with Destructive Force doesn't really solve either of those two core problems, and makes it harder to find a creature to survive, to boot. Death Cloud is something of a different animal entirely, and is really a Golgari card in disguise. It's best used with green ramp spells to fix your mana, some green life gain to offset the symmetrical life loss, and some resilient, grindy threats to eke out an attrition-based victory. I think it's another card that's difficult to support well in cube.

I don't feel that Avacyn would be too good of a target for reanimator, as there are myriad ways to answer indestructible creatures these days. I actually run Iona myself, and I think she's the only creature in Modern that potentially crosses the line. Everything else feels like fair game! Bogardan Hellkite is a very spicy choice, and I like that it doubles as a hardcastable win condition for some kind of Big Red deck. I may have to steal this tech!

Finally, I agree that the pickings for aggro one drops across Modern are somewhat.. slim. A strategy I've used to keep aggro decks viable is to reduce the overall size of my cube, while keeping my aggro creature count roughly the same. This meant making some hard choices with the four drop sections of most of my colours, but since shedding weight from a high of 440 cards about three months ago to a svelte, trim 405, the aggro decks are now reaping the rewards. They're still not dominant by any stretch of the imagination, but now it's easier and more reasonable to put together Goblin Guide, Dark Confidant, and some assorted critters, and go to town.

I'm not sure how big Sterling's cube is (aside: Sterling, get in here and offer up your thoughts!), but I feel like 450 is somewhere near the upper bound of where you can take a Modern cube before aggro starts to lag badly behind the other archetypes. I've ballooned between 360 and 440 in the two or so odd years I've owned my cube, and it still surprises me how much better aggro was at the smallest cube size, even though the difference amounts to only 22% in size. To be sure, shrinking your list is not necessarily what I'd recommend you do with your cube, especially if your group likes where it's at. But it's just another tool in your arsenal if one day you decide that aggro needs a little kick.
 
Ooh, good call on Rise from the Grave. I don't know that I've really used that card outside of M10 limited, so its wording threw me for a loop there. If messing with your opponent's graveyard is something your group enjoys, I'd also recommend Puppeteer Clique, especially if you have sacrifice shenanigans. Stealing two beefy bodies and granting them haste is no small game.

Puppeteer Clique is awesome, but Five drop creatures in Black are tight as it is. If I had more sacrifice options in the cube, Clique would be in over Rise from the Grave. That change might happen despite the lack of sacrifice outlets, as I'm finding more and more that creatures are more of the Modern format.

As far as Wildfire goes in Modern, it's a lot harder to make the archetype work than in Legacy and Vintage cubes. The newfangled mana rocks aren't nearly as broken as the classic ones, and the power level of the deck isn't worth going out of your way to draft for, espcially when's there's only one copy of the namesake card as the payoff. Going bigger with Destructive Force doesn't really solve either of those two core problems, and makes it harder to find a creature to survive, to boot. Death Cloud is something of a different animal entirely, and is really a Golgari card in disguise. It's best used with green ramp spells to fix your mana, some green life gain to offset the symmetrical life loss, and some resilient, grindy threats to eke out an attrition-based victory. I think it's another card that's difficult to support well in cube.

I might be crazy, but I am totally on the other bandwagon on this one. I know this can be a daunting task, but I really feel it is playable in modern. True, we don't have the mana rocks that Legacy and Vintage cubes have, but we do have decent two drop mana rocks, for example: Coldsteel Heart and Guardian Idol (which turns into a beat stick after Wildfire or Death Cloud hit). Red and Black both have enough removal to support, black brings in draw. I believe you have the makings of a Rakdos control deck. Add Green to go Jund for Life from the Loam. I think it is possible, but I can be very wrong and just smashing my head into a concrete wall. This is the archetype I'm going to try and draft the most in my next few drafts.

I don't feel that Avacyn would be too good of a target for reanimator, as there are myriad ways to answer indestructible creatures these days. I actually run Iona myself, and I think she's the only creature in Modern that potentially crosses the line. Everything else feels like fair game! Bogardan Hellkite is a very spicy choice, and I like that it doubles as a hardcastable win condition for some kind of Big Red deck. I may have to steal this tech!

No need to steal, but I hope you do enjoy the tech.
True about the amount of answers to indestructible creatures, and I feel Iona pushes the line, much like Sigarda pushed the line for me. However Iona can simply be the scoop them up card reanimator needs to put it over the top and become an archetype that gets drafted more.

Finally, I agree that the pickings for aggro one drops across Modern are somewhat.. slim. A strategy I've used to keep aggro decks viable is to reduce the overall size of my cube, while keeping my aggro creature count roughly the same. This meant making some hard choices with the four drop sections of most of my colours, but since shedding weight from a high of 440 cards about three months ago to a svelte, trim 405, the aggro decks are now reaping the rewards. They're still not dominant by any stretch of the imagination, but now it's easier and more reasonable to put together Goblin Guide, Dark Confidant, and some assorted critters, and go to town.
This jump to 450 just happened recently, so if Aggro struggles, a cut to 405 first seems likely, as at 360 I found I didn't have the room to support everything I wanted to support, but I certantly do not want to completely hinder Aggro.

With this aggro issue, I stated earlier that I might need to look at Two drops, well I looked at One drops as well. The following is a list I came up with which are cards I don't run, but would consider. I find these to be filler cards for certain decks or abilities that might be really good/unique enough to run with.

White:
One Drops - Boros Elite, Gideon's Lawkeeper, Goldmeadow Harrier, Icatian Javelineers, Weathered Wayfarer
Boros Elite looks meh, everything else here doesn't scream AGGRO to me

Two Drops - Grand Abolisher, Knight of the White Orchid, Nearheath Pilgrim, Suture Priest, True Believer
White Weenie gets an amazingly strong sideboard with Abolisher and Beliver against control, but Two drops in White are already jam packed. Is letting go of something like Cloistered Youth worth a little bit more hate? Must be noted that the hate cards are WW not 1W, which hurts flexibility to fit in more decks.

Blue:
Aggro? lol wut?

Black:
One Drops - Fume Spitter, Guul Draz Assassin
Nothing appealing here
Two Drops - Augur of Skulls, Dauthi Slayer, Nantuko Shade, Sangrophage, Withered Wretch
Skulls is cool for a discard/pox deck I guess. BB for not that great of an impact is pretty much hurting the rest of these cards. Slayer could be something though, seeing the only other creature that has Shadow in my cube is Looter il-Kor

Red:
One Drops - Goblin Bushwhacker, Magus of the Scroll
Scroll stands out the most, another burn outlet for the Red deck that has ran low on cards
Two Drops - Ember Hauler, Hearth Kami, Slith Firewalker, Stigma Lasher, Young Pyromancer
WHY WHY WHY DOESN'T STIGMA LASHER HAVE HASTE?!? It should be the Sulfuric Vortex of Modern, but NNOOOO, it has WWWIIITTTHHHER instead.... Young Pyro has people excited, but I've heard mixed things

Green
One Drops - Avacyn's Pilgrim, Elves of Deep Shadow, Ulvenwald Tracker, Young Wolf
More mana dorks is all that stands out. Tracker's fight ability is cool, and could be useful to clear out blockers however.
Two Drops - Devoted Druid, Garruk's Companion, Gyre Sage , Skinshifter, Utopia Tree
Druid and Gyre Sage seem like they can really do some silly things, yay more mana dorks.

So yeah as we knew, the field at the bottom end is pretty weak. The WW sideboard boost as well as the mana dorks are the only things I'm considering from this list.

I'm not sure how big Sterling's cube is (aside: Sterling, get in here and offer up your thoughts!), but I feel like 450 is somewhere near the upper bound of where you can take a Modern cube before aggro starts to lag badly behind the other archetypes. I've ballooned between 360 and 440 in the two or so odd years I've owned my cube, and it still surprises me how much better aggro was at the smallest cube size, even though the difference amounts to only 22% in size. To be sure, shrinking your list is not necessarily what I'd recommend you do with your cube, especially if your group likes where it's at. But it's just another tool in your arsenal if one day you decide that aggro needs a little kick.

I agree, 450 is the biggest a modern cube should ever get, I feel good about the recent bump to 450, but playing will tell me the most about this bump. As stated if this 450 thing doesn't work out, and/or Aggro dies, a cut will be made. First to 405, then back to 360 if necessary.
 
Just a few ideas if you are still trying to push the Wildfire deck in your cube. It never hurts too much to test out new cards, so I think giving Destructive Force a run is worth it (I think it's much better than Rite of Ruin since artifact mana is pretty crucial). Just adding one more effect is pretty significant since I feel both Wildfire and Destructive Force will run around fairly late if they are in the draft pool.

If you feel like the problem with the deck is the lack of mana acceleration, you could look into cards like Gilded Lotus or even Rakdos Keyrune. The keyrune may seem a little suspect, but I've seen it with some success to support both Wildfire and Death Cloud in the past.

On the other hand, I'd also be wary of how increasing the density of colorless mana acceleration affects other decks.
 
Ok so I’m writing this at work right now so I apologize if I miss anything that was discussed earlier. Heres a few things that stuck out to me.

First, I feel your curve is too high. You have LOTs of 6cc+ creatures. I feel each color should get at least one good fatty but anything more should be in green. I understand you push a reanimator theme more so these may see more play than I give them credit for but even with that archetype I wouldn’t want too many over 6cc. Something you may want to keep an eye on.

2nd, you may have different results since you push the archetype but I personally feel reanimator is not worth it in Modern. All the reanimation spells are 4cc+. This could all be biased though since I personally don’t care for reanimator even in powered versions. But at least there I can get a turn 2 fatty pretty easily. Are your decks dedicated reanimator or is there some cross synergy with another archetype?

Another archetype I don’t feel is worth it is Artifact.dec. It’s nowhere near as good without power. I feel like youre running a lot of subpar cards just to try and push the archetype. Court Homunculus seems like a really horrid 1 drop. How often is he ever a 2/2 on turn 2? Etherium Sculptor doesn’t seem good if you can’t get multiples of him. Master Transmuter seems like an extremely slow and vulnerable tinker. I’ll give another look at your list when Im home since I cant use Cubetutor at work (Stupid Internet Explorer). I tried pushing it a little too but just found it was not worth it.

Now as far as Wildfire goes I think you have the support there it just depends on if your drafters are interested in it. I almost pulled it from mine because I rarely saw anyone draft it. Yes it would be awesome if we had Burning to add but we don’t and I don’t think that makes this deck unplayable. Ive played my fair share of Wildfire in my cube. The decks aren’t built to rely specifically on getting to wildfire. My favorite version of the deck is RWU superfriends . Lots of Planeswalkers to control the game and then blow up the world. If you have any of Ajani, Ral, or Tamiyo in play its just “GG” then. Ive also seen RG do very well. Ramp, Ramp, Ramp play Primeval Titan to ramp some more. Blow up some lands and be sitting much further ahead than the opponent. Ive not gotten a chance to try IRL but I have a sweet looking Mono Red Wildfire deck saved on cubetutor. Its not a deck that comes out of every draft but when youre already in some form of R control its just a great spell to add to your deck. I don’t foresee this getting cut anytime soon.

As far as cube size goes Im very happy with 360. It’s an extremely tight list and we only average 4-6 players. If I were consistently getting 8 players Id want to go up to 450. I don’t see any reason at all to go beyond 450 though. At 450 you can define youre archetypes a litte bit better adding in some support that doesn’t make the cut at 360.

Ill have to address some of the agro discussing later after work.
 
Let's start with updates!
In ---> Out
Avacyn, Angel of Hope ---> Magus of the Moat
Merfolk Looter ---> Psionic Blast
Griselbrand ---> Magus of the Abyss
Young Pyromancer ---> Icefall

These changes were made last friday when I got to draft the cube. Reanimator gets another boost, while a couple of aggro stoppers find themselves on the outside again looking in. Young Pyromancer was something I was already thinking about, but a friend convinced me to put this card in.

Just a few ideas if you are still trying to push the Wildfire deck in your cube. It never hurts too much to test out new cards, so I think giving Destructive Force a run is worth it (I think it's much better than Rite of Ruin since artifact mana is pretty crucial). Just adding one more effect is pretty significant since I feel both Wildfire and Destructive Force will run around fairly late if they are in the draft pool.
If you feel like the problem with the deck is the lack of mana acceleration, you could look into cards like Gilded Lotus or even Rakdos Keyrune. The keyrune may seem a little suspect, but I've seen it with some success to support both Wildfire and Death Cloud in the past.

On the other hand, I'd also be wary of how increasing the density of colorless mana acceleration affects other decks.

I'm thinking about testing out Destructive Force, but am still unsure. Sterling mentioned something that happened in my last draft that I will touch on later in this post. The amount of mana rocks I have currently in the cube is eleven, and I feel that is the perfect number to support things like Wildfire or Esper Control or any other deck that wants mana rocks. However, I'm thinking this cube size is going to get cut down to 405 already, as not playing much as of late, I'm lucky to get eight to draft, so 450 was too big of a jump for what I wanted. One of the cards that will be cut is Fellwar Stone. Ten mana rocks should be plenty to support archetypes at 405

Ok so I’m writing this at work right now so I apologize if I miss anything that was discussed earlier. Heres a few things that stuck out to me.
First, I feel your curve is too high. You have LOTs of 6cc+ creatures. I feel each color should get at least one good fatty but anything more should be in green. I understand you push a reanimator theme more so these may see more play than I give them credit for but even with that archetype I wouldn’t want too many over 6cc. Something you may want to keep an eye on.

2nd, you may have different results since you push the archetype but I personally feel reanimator is not worth it in Modern. All the reanimation spells are 4cc+. This could all be biased though since I personally don’t care for reanimator even in powered versions. But at least there I can get a turn 2 fatty pretty easily. Are your decks dedicated reanimator or is there some cross synergy with another archetype?

Another archetype I don’t feel is worth it is Artifact.dec. It’s nowhere near as good without power. I feel like youre running a lot of subpar cards just to try and push the archetype. Court Homunculus seems like a really horrid 1 drop. How often is he ever a 2/2 on turn 2? Etherium Sculptor doesn’t seem good if you can’t get multiples of him. Master Transmuter seems like an extremely slow and vulnerable tinker. I’ll give another look at your list when Im home since I cant use Cubetutor at work (Stupid Internet Explorer). I tried pushing it a little too but just found it was not worth it.

Now as far as Wildfire goes I think you have the support there it just depends on if your drafters are interested in it. I almost pulled it from mine because I rarely saw anyone draft it. Yes it would be awesome if we had Burning to add but we don’t and I don’t think that makes this deck unplayable. Ive played my fair share of Wildfire in my cube. The decks aren’t built to rely specifically on getting to wildfire. My favorite version of the deck is RWU superfriends . Lots of Planeswalkers to control the game and then blow up the world. If you have any of Ajani, Ral, or Tamiyo in play its just “GG” then. Ive also seen RG do very well. Ramp, Ramp, Ramp play Primeval Titan to ramp some more. Blow up some lands and be sitting much further ahead than the opponent. Ive not gotten a chance to try IRL but I have a sweet looking Mono Red Wildfire deck saved on cubetutor. Its not a deck that comes out of every draft but when youre already in some form of R control its just a great spell to add to your deck. I don’t foresee this getting cut anytime soon.

As far as cube size goes Im very happy with 360. It’s an extremely tight list and we only average 4-6 players. If I were consistently getting 8 players Id want to go up to 450. I don’t see any reason at all to go beyond 450 though. At 450 you can define youre archetypes a litte bit better adding in some support that doesn’t make the cut at 360.

Ill have to address some of the agro discussing later after work.

Agreed, that my curve is too high currently, looking to address that when I cut to 405. those big artifact creatures like Sundering Titan and Platinum Emperion were to give reanimator decks cards they could pitch or cast in the late game if they top decked them. Also was for artifact.dec but that will be discussed later.

As for the fatty ratio, I feel it is really what you want your cube to do. Reanimator really needs fatties to be good. Without them they are terrible. I have to disagree with you on this. Turn 4 Griselbrand, Avacyn, Angel of Hope, or Sundering Titan is a very tough spot to get out of and could easily end the game. This is where I totally disagree with you about reanimator. I think it is easy to support and works fine in the modern format.

It could only happen in a cube draft moment...
This is my turn four, I was on the draw, playing RUG ramp/wildfire (more on that in a little bit). I have Sea Gate Oracle in play, with four mana available. My opponent is playing BW reanimator. My opponent has four mana open with an Oona's Prowler in play.
I attack with my SGO. My opponent discards Avacyn, Angel of Hope to the Prowler, casts Makeshift Mannequin and blocks my SGO with Avacyn. I'm thinking, my ways out of this are thin, but we can try.
Second main phase, Preordain see land, and Flames of the Firebrand, put the land on my deck first, then the Flames, and draw. Cast flames, targeting Avacyn, Prowler, and my opponent.

However, I do agree with you about artifact.dec not working well without power, and one of the drafters on friday found that out the hard way. This is going to be where a good portion of the step down to 405.

I'm intrested in Wildfire, and I believe it will take me winning a draft or doing really well with it for them to come along, that is what happened with reanimator when I first put it in. I feel the support is good and has many different decks it can go into as you said it is a great ramp finisher (which I had the Primeval Titan followed by Wildfire play on friday), or a control card. My rug deck was to ramp up/find answers, resolve a threat in Greater Gargadon or Primetime, then Wildfire if necessary. Had Life from the Loam and Crucible of Worlds for backup. I really want to draft a superfriends wildfire deck, my god that looks fun.
Next draft I'm going to write my entire deck list, hopefully my playgroup will do the same.
As for cube size, I'm thinking 405 will be correct for my playgroup and myself. I enjoyed 360, but didn't feel there was enough room to support everything. If I find 405 to still be an issue, 360 will return. But 450 was too big of a jump for sure.

Forgot to ask one thing, are lands like Ghost Quarter and Tectonic Edge even worth running as I never see them in anyones deck and are looking to be on their way out. Just wanted to get feedback about these cards before they go.

Also I will get to posting on everyone's cube soon. At work with Internet Explorer is the worst, and I'm not really on the net at home as of late.
 
Tec Edge is still awesome because manlands are a real problem for some decks. I recently got stomped by a Treetop Village because all my removal was sorcery speed. Ghost Quarter is decent , especially if manlands are a serious problem, but not as good since it doesn't set them back at all and can actually help fix if they need it.
 

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
I'll second the vote for Tec Edge. It's a necessary safety valve here for decks that go overboard on nonbasic lands, especially when there are powerful effects like Kessig Wolf Run and Celestial Colonnade around. The main problem is finding the time to draft a colourless land over the course of your 45 picks, because you're usually spending all of your selections on quality, playable cards and fixing lands. If your group is up for it, you could always experiment with Jason's utility land draft, which we've found to be the perfect outlet for supporting more lands that don't fix your mana but are still crucial to the overall cube environment.

I'm not sure how much I like Avacyn as a reanimator target, as she doesn't feel powerful enough to justify the hoops you have to jump through to get her on the field. Most times, I would probably rather have a Terastodon, who immediately nukes problem permanents or creates a mini-elephant army, or even something like Sheoldred. Sundering Titan has been a bust here, as without either Tinker to cheat it out, or a set of Alpha duals to nuke, the payoff again isn't worth the price of admission. You could try the new Borborygmos, as its effect is quite strong, and CML here has been having some success with ol' One Eye.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
Tectonic Edge is so good. I always forget how good it is until I see it in action. In games where you need the mana it's just there, but in some matchups it just devastates the opponent. Probably best in a slower environment where you can really take advantage of mana disparities (i.e. Caw Blade vs. Caw Blade).
 
Well, good thing I'm not thinking about cutting Tectonic Edge. lol
Going down to 405
Cuts to happen
White: Court Homunculus, Ethersworn Canonist, Angelic Destiny, Sublime Archangel, and Adarkar Valkyrie
Blue: Etherium Sculptor, Trickbind, Willbender, Master Transmuter, and Frost Titan
Black: Disfigure, Rain of Tears, Barter in Blood, Graveborn Muse, and Kokusho, the Evening Star
Red: Goblin Diplomats, Kargan Dragonlord, Pyrewild Shaman, Siege-Gang Commander, and Devil's Play
Green: Nettle Sentinel, Beast Within, Creeping Mold, Obstinate Baloth, and Oracle of Mul Daya
Artifact: Memnite, Brittle Effigy, Fellwar Stone, Lightning Greaves, Bottle Gnomes, Darksteel Plate, Sculpting Steel, Whispersilk Cloak, Silent Arbiter, Eldrazi Monument, Precursor Golem, Duplicant, Mindslaver, Platinum Angel, and Platinum Emperion
Lands: Blinkmoth Nexus, Buried Ruin, Ghost Quarter, Reliquary Tower, Zoetic Cavern
A lot of middle/higher end cost stuff is cut, artifact.dec is gone, cards that weren't really seeing play or didn't work out were also cut.

Now I left three artifact matters cards, but these changes are going to happen
In ---> Out
Compulsive Research ---> Tezzeret the Seeker
Forbidden Alchemy ---> Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
Putrid Leech ---> Glissa, the Traitor

Even without the ABU duels, I feel the Sundering Titan is worth it, just because my gold section is larger than most. This needs testing to be proven within my cube, but that is why Sundering survived the cuts.

I feel the power level on Avacyn, Angel of Hope is just right. Terastodon looks good but I would be torn between that and Hornet Queen which I love.

Multicolor reanimation targets are intresting, and I REALLY like the suggestion of Borborygmos Enraged as this is a reanimation target, and a BOMB for the ramp decks (Wildfire/Life of the Loam?). My gruul section is stuffed at four and some diversity would do it good. I'm looking at this card as a contender. Other gruul card I really like is Burning-Tree Shaman but no one else seems to give that card love.

Only other multicolored reanimation target that looks good is Gisela, Blade of Goldnight, but doesn't really fit into multiple decks like Avacyn, Griselbrand, or Borb Enraged can.
 

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
I like the look of those cuts! By and large, I feel like your cube will be better and more consistent by trimming down to 405 from 450. Perhaps counter-intuitively, I think you're enabling more archetypes, not less, with a stronger, smaller core list. With some of the questionable artifact cards gone, the other archetypes will have more room to breathe, and have a higher likelihood of coming together.

These are all minor nits, because your changes looks solid for the most part, but cards I might try to squeeze in again in a future update:
  • Frost Titan. I think he's actually the most fair of the M11 Giant brood, and much less game-breaking than his Grave, Inferno, and Primeval brethren. I actually went the opposite route myself, and cut the latter three for power level concerns, while keeping the blue giant.
  • Devil's Play. This is the only fireball-style X spell that's stuck here, and is really good in more controlling red decks. (As an aside: the fact that it's insane in ISD limited, excellent in cube, and mediocre to unplayable in Standard seems to prove to me that most cubes aren't nearly as fast as we think they are, and that cube metagames still resemble draft more than constructed.)
  • Obstinate Baloth. This is as durdly a creature as they get, but I feel like green deserves a little bit of life gain, and it's versatile enough to fit into multiple green decks.
As far as fatties go, Gisela is a fine choice, too, and one I just plain overlooked. I actually think she's underrated, and aside from enabling reanimator, she would go well in some kind of Big Boros control deck, so it might be worth including both her and Borborygmos. These large fatties are definitely interesting and all worth considering.
 
I like the look of those cuts! By and large, I feel like your cube will be better and more consistent by trimming down to 405 from 450. Perhaps counter-intuitively, I think you're enabling more archetypes, not less, with a stronger, smaller core list. With some of the questionable artifact cards gone, the other archetypes will have more room to breathe, and have a higher likelihood of coming together.

These are all minor nits, because your changes looks solid for the most part, but cards I might try to squeeze in again in a future update:
  • Frost Titan. I think he's actually the most fair of the M11 Giant brood, and much less game-breaking than his Grave, Inferno, and Primeval brethren. I actually went the opposite route myself, and cut the latter three for power level concerns, while keeping the blue giant.
  • Devil's Play. This is the only fireball-style X spell that's stuck here, and is really good in more controlling red decks. (As an aside: the fact that it's insane in ISD limited, excellent in cube, and mediocre to unplayable in Standard seems to prove to me that most cubes aren't nearly as fast as we think they are, and that cube metagames still resemble draft more than constructed.)
  • Obstinate Baloth. This is as durdly a creature as they get, but I feel like green deserves a little bit of life gain, and it's versatile enough to fit into multiple green decks.
As far as fatties go, Gisela is a fine choice, too, and one I just plain overlooked. I actually think she's underrated, and aside from enabling reanimator, she would go well in some kind of Big Boros control deck, so it might be worth including both her and Borborygmos. These large fatties are definitely interesting and all worth considering.


Agreed that this cut will help the cube run smoother, and at this number, I feel, allows the most room in the cube, while not having cards dilute the archetypes. Thanks to everyone for feedback, advice, and help.

All three of those cards are for sure in my "on deck" spot.
Frost Titan left only because of Aetherling and Consecrated Sphinx making the top end of blue creatures crowded. I feel Sun Titan is the most fair of the titans, but can see your point in Frost, and can understand why you let the other titans go.
Devil's Play left because of Bonfire of the Damned and Red Sun's Zenith. Bonfire is Bonfire, but the RSZ's reshuffling ability and the fact that the creature gets exiled instead of going to the yard, is what has Devil's Play on the outside looking in.
Baloth just wasn't getting played and was in the cube before the 450 jump.

I'm thinking Borborygmos Enraged might be the multicolored fattie several decks would love. Gisela, Blade of Goldnight (my friend plays it in his powered 360) is intresting, but I honestly don't see it making it into my Boros section
Slayers' Stronghold, Figure of Destiny, Boros Charm, Boros Reckoner, and Ajani Vengeant hold Boros down, if Stronghold doesn't work out Gisela is a choice, which it might just happen, currently texting with my friend, and he can't recall any of the playgroup ever using it.
 

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
Yeah, Stronghold would be my call as the weakest of the Boros lot, though after several drafts, I've been a little underwhelmed by Boros Charm as well. Plus, with all of those cards heavily leaning toward the aggro end of the spectrum, it might not hurt to throw slower R/W decks a bone. One good control card can often have the impact of three or four cheap aggro cards, both in actual gameplay and in solidifying your deck choice during the draft!
 
Yeah, Stronghold would be my call as the weakest of the Boros lot, though after several drafts, I've been a little underwhelmed by Boros Charm as well. Plus, with all of those cards heavily leaning toward the aggro end of the spectrum, it might not hurt to throw slower R/W decks a bone. One good control card can often have the impact of three or four cheap aggro cards, both in actual gameplay and in solidifying your deck choice during the draft!


This has convinced me
Changes happening include
In ---> Out
Compulsive Research ---> Tezzeret the Seeker
Forbidden Alchemy ---> Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
Borborygmos Enraged ---> Ghor-Clan Rampager
Putrid Leech ---> Glissa, the Traitor
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight ---> Slayers' Stronghold
Turn // Burn ---> Desolate Lighthouse

I feel these are for the better overall. Can not wait to draft on Friday. Probably last time I will draft for six weeks :(
Real life things a little bit more important than MTG...
 
So last friday I cubed, four man draft, and I lived the dream, I drafted the reanimator deck. I don't have the deck list, but I had Dread Return, Makeshift Mannequin, and Beacon of Unrest with some fatties like Myr Battlesphere, Avacyn, Angel of Hope, and Borborygmos Enraged with ways to fill the yard like Forbidden Alchemy and Thirst for Knowledge. I was feeling good about my deck, then round one happened. My opponent was playing White/Green Mid-Range/Ramp.
Main deck Relic of Progenitus, sideboard in the Grafdigger's Cage. UGH!

When I did happen to get threats out... Karn Liberated showed his dumb face up and said GET OUTTA HERE /newyorkaccent
Faced a Boros deck wins in round two, and I couldn't handle the fast beats.

I re-evaluated me deck afterwards and found I dedicated TOO much to the theme and didn't grab any cards that were truly interactive and would allow another way to win.
Win some, lose some, but fun is most important and I had that for sure.

Drafted my friends Powered cube after. Library of Alexandria is absurd. I knew it was good, but this was the first time I got to play with it...WOW

Changes
In ---> Out
Venser, the Sojourner ---> Azorius Guildmage
Burning-Tree Shaman ---> Borborygmos Enraged
Glissa, the Traitor ---> Putrid Leech
Coiling Oracle ---> Prime Speaker Zegana

So poor Borb. The card was in one draft and it is gone. My friend and I discussed this card, and while the impact it CAN have is amazing, for an reanimator target, it needs to have an impact on the game on the spot. I know I argued this card as a good ramp/wildfire card, but most of the fatties those decks would use come earlier (Primeval Titan, Thundermaw Hellkite, Inferno Titan)
Burning-Tree Shaman fills a void nicely, as it provides a small punishment for equiping your creatures or using your planeswalker. Plus a 3/4 for 3 is still good in my book.

The re-switch to Glissa, the Traitor was for these two reasons
1. Golgari isn't stuffed at 2cc
2. Glissa is still a 3/3 with First Strike, Deathtouch, and has a super unique ability.

Coiling Oracle is a personal favorite of mine, I would play it in any Green/Blue deck. Prime Speaker Zegana really felt like win more.

Venser, the Sojourner is on testing duties right now as I haven't been happy with any other Azorius card, other than what I'm currently running (Celestial Colonnade, Detention Sphere, Grand Arbiter Augustin IV, and Supreme Verdict) BTW Geist of Saint Traft, banned in my cube. Kinda thinking the Azorius Signet or Talisman of Progress might be the card I am looking for...


EDIT: Is there a way to edit the title of this thread? I can not seem to find setting for that...
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
I can edit the thread if you want. The option (for me) is in the top right under "Thread Tools".

Curious about the Gesit ban. Can you elaborate?
 

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
So poor Borb. The card was in one draft and it is gone. My friend and I discussed this card, and while the impact it CAN have is amazing, for an reanimator target, it needs to have an impact on the game on the spot. I know I argued this card as a good ramp/wildfire card, but most of the fatties those decks would use come earlier (Primeval Titan, Thundermaw Hellkite, Inferno Titan)

Upcoming rant warning:

This is largely my problem with the entire Titan cycle in a Modern cube environment. They are so good at what they do for a paltry sum of six mana, that they invalidate whole swaths of other interesting cards at those mana costs and above. In Vintage & Legacy cubes, this issue is less pronounced, because there are a whole host of cheap, interesting cards that impact games on turns one through three. In Modern cubes, however, there are less unfair shenanigans to pull off, and as a result, people hit six mana the majority of the time, all while playing fair. And what cards dominate fair games? Yep, those Titans.

I think that as long as you run Grave, Inferno, and Primeval Titan, that makes it hard for other interesting strategies relying on big creatures to shine. It's often easier to amass a Rampant Growth or two and accelerate into them, than to try and dig for the finicky combination of a fatty, Thirst for Knowledge, and Dread Return. Heck, the ramp isn't really even necessary. Someone in my playgroup just drafts Jund midrange every single time, using two-for-one's like Staggershock and Consuming Vapors to stall long enough to drop a game-warping bearded giant. Now, to be sure, that strategy isn't unbeatable by any stretch of the imagination. It's possible to go under it, or in some select circumstances, to go over the top. But if you want fringe strategies like reanimator to be a real thing, it does require that the archetype's power level is at least on par with ramp strategies and Jundish midrange decks. Especially if you want people other than yourself to dip your toe in those waters.

Before I get too negative, though, I want to make sure I give a ringing endorsement for your draft report. It's always sweet when you get to test out a new deck that you're pushing, regardless of whether or not it pans out. Sometimes the best way to improve the design of your cube is to get your face kicked in! I like all of your recent cube updates too, and love that Coiling Oracle is now in the mix. For Azorius, have you given any consideration to Azorius Charm? It's pretty much a control-only, aggro-hosing card, but it's something the UW control decks always appreciate.
 
I can edit the thread if you want. The option (for me) is in the top right under "Thread Tools".

Curious about the Gesit ban. Can you elaborate?

That would be great, just need the number changed from 450 to 405 in the title.

As for Geist... From the op...
3. Geist of Saint Traft, this card doesn't feel like it belongs in White/Blue, which to me is more of a control color combination. Hexproof with Blue seems to good.

So basically I was looking to remove hexproof from the cube completely. On everyone's "favorite" message board, Sterling brought up that Green needs the hexproof to compete and I agreed with this. Blue having hexproof seems just wrong to me. I know a bit of diversity is good, but I really didn't like Geist in W/U
Geist should of been W/G
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
Yeah, I can concede that argument. However I do feel that Geist almost single-handedly unlocks and incentivizes that UW aggressive archetype, and when one card can bring so much additional deck diversity to the cube I am hesitant to cut it. It's the same way I feel about Duskmantle Seer.
 
Upcoming rant warning:

This is largely my problem with the entire Titan cycle in a Modern cube environment. They are so good at what they do for a paltry sum of six mana, that they invalidate whole swaths of other interesting cards at those mana costs and above. In Vintage & Legacy cubes, this issue is less pronounced, because there are a whole host of cheap, interesting cards that impact games on turns one through three. In Modern cubes, however, there are less unfair shenanigans to pull off, and as a result, people hit six mana the majority of the time, all while playing fair. And what cards dominate fair games? Yep, those Titans.

I think that as long as you run Grave, Inferno, and Primeval Titan, that makes it hard for other interesting strategies relying on big creatures to shine. It's often easier to amass a Rampant Growth or two and accelerate into them, than to try and dig for the finicky combination of a fatty, Thirst for Knowledge, and Dread Return. Heck, the ramp isn't really even necessary. Someone in my playgroup just drafts Jund midrange every single time, using two-for-one's like Staggershock and Consuming Vapors to stall long enough to drop a game-warping bearded giant. Now, to be sure, that strategy isn't unbeatable by any stretch of the imagination. It's possible to go under it, or in some select circumstances, to go over the top. But if you want fringe strategies like reanimator to be a real thing, it does require that the archetype's power level is at least on par with ramp strategies and Jundish midrange decks. Especially if you want people other than yourself to dip your toe in those waters.

Before I get too negative, though, I want to make sure I give a ringing endorsement for your draft report. It's always sweet when you get to test out a new deck that you're pushing, regardless of whether or not it pans out. Sometimes the best way to improve the design of your cube is to get your face kicked in! I like all of your recent cube updates too, and love that Coiling Oracle is now in the mix. For Azorius, have you given any consideration to Azorius Charm? It's pretty much a control-only, aggro-hosing card, but it's something the UW control decks always appreciate.

I actually agree with you 100%, but my playgroup would have none of that. Unless something like Aetherling gets printed in those colors. So I need to keep finding ways to balance what I want and what the playgroup wants. Who doesn't love Coiling Oracle? Azorius Charm is interesting, if Venser, the Sojouner doesn't work out, Charm is on deck. Thanks for the kind words about draft report.

Yeah, I can concede that argument. However I do feel that Geist almost single-handedly unlocks and incentivizes that UW aggressive archetype, and when one card can bring so much additional deck diversity to the cube I am hesitant to cut it. It's the same way I feel about Duskmantle Seer.

That is what made me hesitant to cut it at first, but I am glad I did. I do miss WU having more of an aggressive archetype, but that can wait till a different WU aggro card sees the day of light.
 

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
If it really comes down to playgroup protests, you can always do what Jason and I do: secretly cut the offending cards, and replace them with the cards you want to experiment with. Since it doesn't sound like you get the full 8-man table, you can always shrug and say that Grave Titan must've ended up in the pile that didn't get dealt. ;)
 
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