Ahadabans's Semi-Retro Cube

massacre wurm only board wipes your opponent

Wow. I've been reading that wrong for awhile now. Oops.

OK. Replacement options then as that's too strong. Skeletal Vampire would be cool, but it just feels so underpowered. I suppose I could go with the rat ninja Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni There's also Griselbrand.

Other suggestions? Anyone wanting to sell me on Batman please do. I just think he's too low impact now but would like to hear arguments otherwise in his defense.
 

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
In my experience, Massacre Wurm hasn't been nearly as overpowered as it reads. A turn six Infest - even a one-sided one - isn't overly backbreaking, compared to all of the actual Wrath effects that exist in cube. I think it's actually a good fit, power-level wise, for a control deck six-drop.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Anyone wanting to sell me on Batman please do. I just think he's too low impact now but would like to hear arguments otherwise in his defense.

With pleasure!


I would suggest at least trying him because power level can be difficult to assess in cube in the abstract, since it is environment contingent, and every environment is different. It's also sometimes more important to run a fun card that people like, even if it’s a bit underpowered, and since you run firemane angel already that should at least partially moot having power level be the controlling factor.

It’s also not that underpowered. He starts out at 5 regenerating flying power in the air, which helps circumvent ground stalls, and some decks can't really deal with him effectively due to the regeneration. Control decks like him, because he provides instant board control for them, without being oppressive like grave titan or Elspeth sun's champion. In standard, I remember skeletal being played in decks like solar flare mostly because he was an evasive, resilient threat that also controlled the board, and he still fulfills that role in cube very well. You just can't play him in the same cube as grave titan or he will look terrible.

He also is a perfectly valid excuse to run other sweet ravinca era cards like debtors' knell and angel of despair. Ultimately, the cards are only going to be as good or as bad as the environment you design for them to exist in anyways.

Most importantly, you like the card, it only takes up one slot, and if it’s a failure, you can just take him out.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Ah, Kokusho, the evening star reunited with his old buddy skeletal vampire; and there is firemane angel too. All you need now is giant solifuge, burning-tree shaman, and rumbling slum...maybe go deep with Kodama of the North Tree?

Don't mind me, I’m just drowning on nostalgia.

But back on topic, maybe cut tinker? I've never been happy with that card, it either does nothing or its super swingy. I've also never played rofellos, but I’ve always heard it is extremely broken. Liliana's reaver also seems really low in terms of power level: I could never get that thing to hit even in M14 limited.

I'm still a little unsure as to what you are looking to do overall though. Talking about power level and making cuts is all well-and-good, but those are all means to achieve some ends. What sort of environment are you ultimately looking to create/how do you want your games to play out? And since you're revamping your cube, how did your old games play out, and what didn't you like about them?
 
If Glare were a single color, I'd find room. But I don't like it more than the GW cards I'm currently running. It's a sweet card though and I do have a copy of it (probably a play set). :)

I have solifuge, burning-tree and I think I have a slum lying around too. But sadly, these guys are not really all that interesting so that is why I'm not running them (Solifuge could probably get in being that I run hybrids in mono color sections though).

I may cut Tinker. I really like it but I have plenty of stuff I could run there. Anything you suggest? I might throw Willbender back in just because that card can be such a cool morph flip. I'm open to other ideas though. What do you guys think about Dictate of Kruphix? Seems good in tempo.

Great question on what my cube goals are. At a high level, it's just to provide a fun gaming environment with a little bit of everything from Magic's history. I want to include new mechanics but also some old favorites as a couple of my players are/were old school players (from Alpha actually).

This is currently the 4th iteration of the cube. Here is the history and what feedback I can give you about each phase of it.
1. First version was a 450 cube modeled after Tom Lapille's list. It was dragony, had a high curve and was not well put together (Green was just plain BAD). Despite that, it led to some of the most fun I've had playing Magic. It hooked me on this format honestly. This version didn't live long because I started really researching cube and ultimately found MTGS.
2. Second version was also 450 and was a much more modern cube (much higher power level overall). It was a pretty standard MTGS power-max cube running all the usual suspects. No power nine, but it had all the other broken stuff in it (balance, recurring nightmare, etc.). This cube didn't last long either. The biggest issue was I never had 8 drafters, so the cube didn't draft all that well. I decided it was too big and chopped it down.
3. Third version lasted a long time and is the one I have the most data for. It was 405 and was semi-powered (just the moxen). It was a tighter list than the 450 and had a CMC below 3 (so more aggro friendly though still not aggro pushed). This cube drafted really well even with as few as 4 players. It also played well (at first anyway). After awhile though, guys caught on to the "winning" engines and a lot of the creativity in drafting was lost. You started seeing the usual suspect decks over and over (recurring nightmare, reanimator, goodstuff.dec (usually running 4 colors - I hate this deck with a passion), token.dec, equipment.dec, ramp.dec, Uxtempo.dec). This is where the wheels came off a bit and some of the most offensive cards started to really show their degenerate nature (Jitte for example). I started wondering if there wasn't a better way to build a cube that would bring things back to the more random fun we had when we first started playing. That idea didn't find any traction on MTGS, which ultimately led me to Riptide.

Version 4 (current version) has not been played (outside me doing simple tests against myself), and has probably 100 card changes from the last version. Some of that is gutting the degenerate cards, the rest is trying to remove straight value cards and add more interactive type cards. I've decided that I want to try and balance arch type support with just random synergy. I don't really want specific decks to be optimized. By that I mean, I don't want all the nut high reanimator package pieces to be so plentiful that this deck will always come together or come together in such a way that it becomes super powerful (like a constructed reanimator deck). Because at least with my group, that is hurting some of the creativity. Why experiment with weird card interactions when you can just make ramp.dec and win? I can't (and don't want to) stop guys from making a reanimator deck or a mana elf ramp deck (I love both decks). I simply want to pull the overall power level down to a place where a random synergy deck that isn't necessarily "textbook" can still compete with the "tried and true" arch types. I hope that makes sense.

In summary, I will almost always prioritize interesting cards with high ceilings (that can be unlocked with simple synergies) versus self-contained powerful cards. Karmic Guide over Baneslayer Angel for example. Genesis over Kalonian Hydra. Haakon, Stromgald Scourge over Hypnotic Specter. You get the idea. That's not to say I don't run some big dumb beater types (guys like those so I have some), but most of my card selections are more about interactions over power. Again though, I'm not trying to specifically add "packages" or two-card combos (even if I have a few supported). That's not the primary focus. It's more about strong cards that have various ways to interact.

I want a lot of this to be organic though. I don't want a flat power curve but I'd like to smooth it out some. I still want swingy moments (because coming back from sure defeat is an exciting thing if not in excess - I think I keep leaving Bonfire in there because this card does the "luck sack" moment really well and it fits Red's flavor). Part of cube is also nostalgia and just being able to tickle personal fancies. Like my requirement to have at least one hydra in my cube no matter what (I just like hydras). I also highly regard art, so if one card is weaker than another similar card but the art is better, it will get the slot (Geist-Honored Monk vs Cloudgoat Ranger for example).

All this is a bit directionless in a way and thus a difficult thing to explain or balance. To add to the difficulty of this exercise, my group has sort of disbanded (key players moved away) and that means this exercise is largely theoretical. Right now anyway. And so I value any input I get here especially about specific cards I'm thinking of running because I most likely won't get a lot of experience with them myself.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Some of that is gutting the degenerate cards, the rest is trying to remove straight value cards and add more interactive type cards. I've decided that I want to try and balance arch type support with just random synergy. I don't really want specific decks to be optimized.

Ok...so that was a lot to unpack, but let’s see if maybe you can bounce some ideas and get things a bit more focused:

1) It sounds like you're probably going to build the cube, get the band back together, and then try to hook them in one night of awesome cube gameplay.
2) you want to lower power level, and make it where cards have to work well in concert with others, in order to achieve powerful results.
3) you want there to be archetypes, but you want the corner stones of those archetypes to gain importance when played around other cards.
4) you don't want to have individual archetypes be so consistent that they break the format.

So, I think you made a good step weeding out the powercards, since those are violating points #2 and #3.

I think the next step then would be identifying exactly which types of cards you need to weaken and diversify. Those are usually going to be things like: removal suite, reanimation cards, midrange beef, ramp...basically whatever in the past was "too good" and leading people to draft in the same manner every time. From your post above, it looks like you had at least problems with ramp decks and reanimator being too good. So, let’s use those as a thought experiment.

Reanimator
I looks like you have a lot of reanimation spells. I count: reanimate, unearth, dread return, living death, profane command, unburial rites, whip of erebos, animate dead, puppeteer clique, sheoldred, karmic guide, and necromancy...that’s 12 reanimation effects in a circa 400 card cube.

I run 6 reanimation spells in comparison. With 12 spells, you have some serious archetype power and consistency. You can probably cut some of the raw power ones, like reanimate, and necromancy You could try spreading some of your reanimation across different colors, with stuff like resurrection, or hymn of rebirth. You could reduce the power level and make it more synergy based with something like adarkar valkyrie and run that alongside combat tricks and limited removal. You can make it where you are only running reanimation that has a higher CC, to prevent fast brutal kills, or use it as something to enforce another theme (dread return with dredge, or tokens, or sacrifice effects).

Ramp
You have some serious ramping power, with 8 one drop mana dorks, 6 two drop mana producers, and than 7 artifact mana rampers. If you think about it, you've effectively broken singleton 8 times on llanowar elf, as far as a ramp player is concerned, which is going to add a lot of consistency and power to that archetype. You could replace some of them with maybe slightly more expensive or exotic rampers, such as scorned villager or more scryb ranger (sorry that’s all I got, I’m in deep on the ranger), or maybe run some good limited removal for them, things likecunning sparkmage, shrivel, geistflame, thats designed to fit in well with the rest of the cube. Either way, I think you have some room to play with these numbers.

You might want to create more of a gap in available creatures between 6-9 mana, otherwise you might be risking directing people back to midrange/battlecruiser.dec. It’s not too bad stalling the game out to get to 6-7 mana with a little bit of ramp help, but much harder at 8-9 or higher.
 
Thanks again for taking so much time to help. I appreciate it.

Yeah, I just started writing and it ended up a novel. Sorry about that.

Good suggestions on taking a few tools away from reanimator and ramp. I really like both decks a lot, so I'm hesitant to go too far with cuts. Especially with ramp. That to me is green's best attribute, so to gimp that would leave green just plain bad again. Reanimator is a trickier thing to combat because I think graveyard synergies are fun and the easiest for guys to pick up on and exploit. While reanimator itself is Bx, there are tons of cards and strategies that want to interact with the graveyard in all colors. So while taking a couple cards away might be a good idea, I may get rid of one or two of the more powerful fatties instead. Reanimator doesn't really excel without quality fatties and by leaving the graveyard enabling cards in there, I keep that theme strong. I've also increased my removal suite a bit as a way to combat several powerful strategies (ramp, reanimator, tokens). It feels like an overall better solution since it combats a lot of things simultaneously. Plus, I find when guys have answers for things they feel more in control of the game's outcome even if they still lose. It's when you play a game and your opponent does something you can't answer where there is more "feel bad".

Again though, your suggestion is a good one and I'll look at all the themes I have and see if I can cut back a card or two to soften them a bit. Even in white, I have just a ton of aggressive dudes (which is certainly by design), but do I really need all of them or do I benefit by tossing in a few more synergy guys (something like a Suture Priest or whatever)?

Let me work on some cuts. Any cards you play which you feel are really good (from an interaction perspective) that I'm not running which I could replace some mana elves and reanimation spells with?
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Good suggestions on taking a few tools away from reanimator and ramp. I really like both decks a lot, so I'm hesitant to go too far with cuts. Especially with ramp. That to me is green's best attribute, so to gimp that would leave green just plain bad again.

No, its ok, by all means you can make those changes gradually. Its not so much that you're gimping those archetypes though, as it is that you're creating different strategic approaches. So, you might cut a green ramper and run an emrakul's hatcher in red instead, that a sacrifice deck or control deck might want. Having it in the cube might also cause the green ramp player to bleed out into some sacrifice themes rather than staying locked in just ramp. Think of it like this, you're devoting a lot of slots to reanimator right now; and there might be some room there to support more strategic axis for reanimation. As long as you have synergies to support it, you aren’t gimping anything, you're just taking a different approach. You can still retain those reanimator slots if you wish, but there is just some room to get creative. That might be a more extensive change than you’re willing to make right now, but it’s something to keep in mind if you continue to find reanimator an oppressive strategy.

The alternate ramp is a little tricky to make recommendations for, because i.m.o that really has to be tweaked based off of how oppressive ramp is in your cube. If it’s coming out really fast and strong, I would probably replace about half of the 1 mana elf effects, with 2 CC equivalents in an attempt to move ramp's clock back a turn. I also would probably shift its big ramp targets higher up the curve, try to minimize the number of super powerful 6CC cards it can power out. I almost think of ramp like a combo deck, where the questions are, how fast and consistent do I want it in my cube, and what turn do I want them "going off." And of course, that’s always going to be contingent on how fast/disruptive your other decks are against them. As a result, it would be really easy for me to be off in my card evaluations in this respect, but as a rule of thumb I think it better to be conservative with how well you support those decks, observe your environment, and then buff them as you see fit.
 
Thanks. Solid advice.

I've made about 15 card swaps which hopefully move things a little in this direction. Without a play group though, I'm unwilling to get crazy and try a lot of unusual card choices right now because I have no way to test them. So I'm trying to stick to known quantities as much as I can and make small tweaks. I've already gutted 30% of my original cube, so I really have no idea how this thing will play now.

I added these from Journey Into Nyx.
Dakra Mystic (I like the potential even if it may end up not good enough)
Dictate of Heliod (instant speed double anthems seems super powerful and my white 5 drop section needs love anyway)
Gnarled Scarhide (love the design of this card. More bestow goodness)

OUT >>> IN
White
Cloudshift >> Swift Justice (I like combat tricks, and this one looks good. I believe I have enough blink enablers).
Seal of Cleansing >> Temporal Isolation (I'm trying to remove all the conditional cards that potentially do nothing, even though seal is good and rarely goes without any targets).
Elite Vanguard >> Steppe Lynx (Steppe Lynx has a higher ceiling but requires more effort to unlock)
Soltari Champion >> Timely Reinforcements (Timely Reinforcements is an interesting cards with more than one application. The champion is an athem effect, and I already have two of them).
Terminus >> Austere Command (I love the command cards because you get so many option. I don't care for the miracle mechanic all that much)

Black
Reanimate >> Unearth (Man, this cut hurt. But it keeps graveyard synergy while taking a tool away from straight reanimator).
Zombie Infestation >> Phyrexian Reclamation (swapping an "all in" type of card for one with more uses)
Animate Dead >> Oversold Cemetery (I've never liked all the wording on animate dead. And oversold cemetary is yet another reason to get stuff in your yard)
Liliana's Reaver >> Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni (Rat ninja's are cool)

Red
Stromkirk Noble >> Wildfire (Probably seems random, but I wanted to get Wildfire back in the list and this is all I really didn't mind cutting for it)

Green
Elvish Mystic >> Ulvenwald Tracker (Taking away a ramp dude and giving green some pseudo removal)
Fyndhorn Elves >> Sylvan Safekeeper (More downgrading here, but I like the flavor)
Rakdos Cackler >> Wild Nacatl (Deathrite moves to black and that gives me a green spot for the cat)

Multi
Aurelia's Fury >> Firemane Avenger (Seems like a really powerful card if you can keep it alive and give it friends. I don't know, I like it).

Artifact
Basilisk Collar >> Infiltration Lens (I've played the collar before and it's OK. The lens looks interesting. It could suck, but anything that can draw two cards deserves testing)
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
This looks pretty reasonable. Since you are running sylvan safekeeper have you considered running cards that want cards/lands in your graveyard? Perhaps threshold cards, deathrite shaman (if the power level isn't too high) or worm harvest?

Let me know how the dictate of heliod works out. I've been wanting to up my combat tricks recently to help the little creature decks push damage through in the midgame, but its hard to find combat tricks powerful enough for cube. I want to experiment with some of the strive combat tricks from journey to nix, but was considering dictate of heliod.

Also, for your hydras I was thinking maybe:
 
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