Yeah, it also let's you retrigger Quirion dryad, forgotten ancient, lambholt champion, Primeval bounty. Can also give psuedo vigilance if necessary, reset adventure creatures...
Alchemist's Crucible
- Thread starter Alfonzo Bonzo
- Start date
On the enchantment-fall angle, having you considered:
Banging with the skyfishers and cloudstone curio...and all your other permanent bouncing.
Only negative being the planeswalker trinket text...but even with the 3 that you run, it could subtly reassert that off color vivid/triome splash deal you have going
Banging with the skyfishers and cloudstone curio...and all your other permanent bouncing.
Only negative being the planeswalker trinket text...but even with the 3 that you run, it could subtly reassert that off color vivid/triome splash deal you have going
Riiight forgot about the adventure angle that I liked so much...rebuying rifttock, guidemother, tactician, etc to set up a big combat step. Such an elegant theme that’s very difficult to implement in most cubes, but you’ve integrated it seamlessly
On the enchantment-fall angle, having you considered:
Banging with the skyfishers and cloudstone curio...and all your other permanent bouncing.
Only negative being the planeswalker trinket text...but even with the 3 that you run, it could subtly reassert that off color vivid/triome splash deal you have going
Yeah, the trinket text is a bit of a pain and there's only so much room for green impulses and the priority has gone to those that feed the graveyard, but something to think about. I have been thinking about an alternative cube that has all the oaths and the uncommon war planeswalkers as build arounds... And clouds tone curio, and Sisay...
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/167q
So it looks like I'm fairly happy with version 3.2. Last couple of cards are always a pain, but wanted to get this out there before the next set of spoilers forces me to re-evaluation everything.
Would love to hear any thoughts or observations - questions about inclusions or glaring omissions? Take it for a spin...
I'll do a write up when I have a bit more time. Thanks!
So it looks like I'm fairly happy with version 3.2. Last couple of cards are always a pain, but wanted to get this out there before the next set of spoilers forces me to re-evaluation everything.
Would love to hear any thoughts or observations - questions about inclusions or glaring omissions? Take it for a spin...
I'll do a write up when I have a bit more time. Thanks!
Looks cool! I drafted a RW Heroic deck that I think kicks ass. Payoffs seemed to cluster in RW with enablers in GW--maybe find some ways to spread the love around? The power band feels a little wide to me (Pyromancer's Assault and Glassdust Hulk seemed a little low, although now that I'm seeing the latter again it actually seems legit if you don't have a ton of artifact removal in your cube), and there's both a dearth of 1-drops and of things costing more than 5 mana, which makes things feel very...wide around the middle? You'll be double-spelling pretty quickly, and you're not hurting for stuff to do, but it feels like it's hard to go over the top, with the "most powerful" single card probably being Duplicant or something like that. Not many 3-for-1s. It's a cool environment, and I'll try to get a few more drafts in!
I don't feel like making another 9 cuts. Cards that didn't make it:
I don't feel like making another 9 cuts. Cards that didn't make it:
Thanks for the draft and feedback Zoss, really appreciate it. It's interesting your take on the heroic side of things, which I suspect might be newness to the format - the only things which are really 'heroic' are anax, zada and livewire lash. The rest of the play to it is more about power matters, and supporting 'aggression', which plays across all of Naya. I'd expect there to be Gruul versions of the deck, and there's a little support in Rakdos as well.
I swapped Feather, the redeemed for Anax, as I wanted to avoid the repetitive, potentially frustrating nature of Feather (and support go-wide), but slapping heroic in the text box does bring certain expectations. But it's good feedback from a player new to the format. I think this is a format that will take a while to understand, which I hope doesn't sound too condescending - I do want something that has a lot to explore to it.
Interested in your thoughts about going over the top with more expensive spells. Would you mind talking a bit more about that? Be really helpful to understand what you're thinking. Cheers!
I swapped Feather, the redeemed for Anax, as I wanted to avoid the repetitive, potentially frustrating nature of Feather (and support go-wide), but slapping heroic in the text box does bring certain expectations. But it's good feedback from a player new to the format. I think this is a format that will take a while to understand, which I hope doesn't sound too condescending - I do want something that has a lot to explore to it.
Interested in your thoughts about going over the top with more expensive spells. Would you mind talking a bit more about that? Be really helpful to understand what you're thinking. Cheers!
Sure--by going over the top, I mean that in my draft, few cards looked as if they could generate an overwhelming advantage, which is generally where midrange and control want to be. This is to say that a lot of my choices felt as if they were between different flavors of incremental advantage, which is great to have on, say, 80-90% of cards, but can mean that once you're solidly behind or ahead it's hard for that to change. Take Oblivion Ring, for example. This card is great at locking up a lead or in stemming the flow of blood when you're getting stomped, but it's rarely going to swing a game in your favor (in this cube, according to my assessment, usual caveats, etc.) because most cards feel relatively equivalent once they're on the board. Part of this is the fact that a lot of your higher-MV cards aren't nearly as good as the lower-MV ones. Sure, they're better than they look, but Solemn Recruit is, 9 times out of 10, better than a Striped Riverwinder or a Bone Miser by the time you play them, and that's without looking at the difference in mana efficiency.*
You also just don't have many ways of getting an X-for-1 where X>2. You only have five wraths in the whole cube (Heaven // Earth, Sweltering Suns, Realm-Cloaked Giant, Flood of Tears, and Nevinyrral's Disk), and they're all kind of medium/conditional/expensive (six if you count Shower of Coals which is a pretty nifty card; great find!). I'm worried that even a mediocre aggro deck will run over the slower ones, though I could be very wrong about that. I really like how you've shifted 1-drops into the artifact section, but that tends to encourage people to durdle more, not less, which will exacerbate this weakness to aggro. What I DO like is how all of these choices encourage flexibility; again, however, this tends to lead to people durdling more and thereby not making the best choice at a given moment. Consider the parable of Mark Rosewater and the Grizzly Bear. More choices means more agency, but it also means more ways to goof up. If you expect people to do well in those situations, this may be a fine setup, but my group would likely flounder and feel betrayed by their cards and their promise of setting up something cool if they'd had just one or two (or three or four...) turns before getting pasted by a deck that focused on playing to the board.
edit: I should answer the question. The thing about expensive spells is that some of them have to actually stabilize things or turn the game around. Here, they tend to not do that, either by virtue of being too small to risk in combat (Angel of Sanctions) or by just not doing a lot on their own (Scourge Devil). These sorts of cards shouldn't predominate, of course, as they risk giving major cases of the feelsbads, but I tend to like having some ways to "come back" from the brink of defeat.
*you've made me realize I need to look at my cube and reevaluate things like this. Blech. But thanks.
Thanks, that's very helpful. Lots to consider here. Couple of things to separate out here - there's something about sweepers giving midrange/control space to do their stuff. I also have Massacre Girl, Engineered Explosives as conditional wraths (and I might also consider Setessan Tactics in that category too!). But I think you're right, it's maybe a little short and a little conditional, so there's probably room to add a bit more, will have to give a thought to which ones I want. I think they're still likely to be conditional too, and maybe more in the line of arc lightning (though, not arc lightning).
Getting the balance right is tricky as the intention should be that you can build a bit of an engine to control creatures, so I don't want to make that too dominant (like bone shredder and oversold cemetery, or together forever and triskelion, and then there's crowd control like goblin sharpshooter and phyrexian plaguelord) so we'll have to see, but yes, will look to add. Any hot favourites?
The other bit about overwhelming 3 for 1's will need a bit more careful thought - it's intentional design to not have a lot of enters the battlefield impact cards, or easy wins (no free lunches, hey?) and the intention is around building engines and 'combos' but you're right, there could maybe be a bit more light relief for the players. Would love to hear suggestions. Thanks very much for the considered response.
Getting the balance right is tricky as the intention should be that you can build a bit of an engine to control creatures, so I don't want to make that too dominant (like bone shredder and oversold cemetery, or together forever and triskelion, and then there's crowd control like goblin sharpshooter and phyrexian plaguelord) so we'll have to see, but yes, will look to add. Any hot favourites?
The other bit about overwhelming 3 for 1's will need a bit more careful thought - it's intentional design to not have a lot of enters the battlefield impact cards, or easy wins (no free lunches, hey?) and the intention is around building engines and 'combos' but you're right, there could maybe be a bit more light relief for the players. Would love to hear suggestions. Thanks very much for the considered response.
Thoughts on come-back cards
Following on from Zoss’s comments above, I’ve been giving a bit of thought to bringing in some more sweepers (still need to give a bit more thought to appropriate ‘come-back’ cards). Having looked at your cube @Zoss, I can see why you think I need more, because you’re absolutely packed with sweepers! Here’s a reminder of where I currently am:
Realm-Cloaked Giant
Flood of Tears
Massacre Girl
Sweltering Suns
Shower of Coals
Setessan Tactics
Heaven // Earth
Nevinyrral's Disk
Engineered Explosives
Having said that I do think I need a few more, so here’s what I’ve been thinking around some possible options.
6 drop, so not too backbreaking. Has a bit of graveyard play to it with threshold and offers some decisions. Probably where I would end up if I wanted another white wrath.
Disk is an interesting one as it’s a bit polarising with players. In general I think I would want something that just deals with sweepers, rather than removing enchantment and artifact engine pieces. The Magus would allow me to remove Nev’s Disk (don’t think I want two of the same effect), and make it easier to interact with being a creature. Entertaining with Necrotic Ooze. Interesting but probably not?
This was so close to making the cut before. Obviously only gains the 'advantage' at 6 mana, but it's such a cool spell, particularly in a green/white control shell.
The Grillo classic, and probably around the right power level for where I want to be. Has interactions with self-mill and discard (even though I don’t think the aftermath is generally stellar). Feels like a solid add.
Cheaper, clean mini-sweeper with a game smoothing effect. Straightforward, and a bit… dull?
Exile mini-sweeper in a graveyard cube. Good or too back breaking for certain decks. Probably hyperbole, but maybe it’s the right answer.
More cycling sweepers for red to sit alongside sweltering suns. Which do we prefer? Starstorm can sometimes deal with 5+ toughness, and Slice can sometimes clear up tokens and draw a card.
6 mana conditional flametongue? Requires a certain amount of deckbuilding to take advantage of, and is it enough by itself at that stage? Maybe not as a complete answer itself, maybe it’s a supplemental effect?
Already have a graveyard sweeper in Earth, do I want another? I suppose it’s slightly different with flashback so might be worth a punt?
Honourable mentions
These creatures are both great, but the problem card for me in this scenario is Oversold Cemetery. Having aggressive players having to face down a sweeper every turn (or every other turn) seems like it’s going to be too frustrating? Am I over-worrying here? I think they’d be fun with other return to hand and reanimator type effects.
Any thoughts?
Following on from Zoss’s comments above, I’ve been giving a bit of thought to bringing in some more sweepers (still need to give a bit more thought to appropriate ‘come-back’ cards). Having looked at your cube @Zoss, I can see why you think I need more, because you’re absolutely packed with sweepers! Here’s a reminder of where I currently am:
Realm-Cloaked Giant
Flood of Tears
Massacre Girl
Sweltering Suns
Shower of Coals
Setessan Tactics
Heaven // Earth
Nevinyrral's Disk
Engineered Explosives
Having said that I do think I need a few more, so here’s what I’ve been thinking around some possible options.
6 drop, so not too backbreaking. Has a bit of graveyard play to it with threshold and offers some decisions. Probably where I would end up if I wanted another white wrath.
Disk is an interesting one as it’s a bit polarising with players. In general I think I would want something that just deals with sweepers, rather than removing enchantment and artifact engine pieces. The Magus would allow me to remove Nev’s Disk (don’t think I want two of the same effect), and make it easier to interact with being a creature. Entertaining with Necrotic Ooze. Interesting but probably not?
This was so close to making the cut before. Obviously only gains the 'advantage' at 6 mana, but it's such a cool spell, particularly in a green/white control shell.
The Grillo classic, and probably around the right power level for where I want to be. Has interactions with self-mill and discard (even though I don’t think the aftermath is generally stellar). Feels like a solid add.
Cheaper, clean mini-sweeper with a game smoothing effect. Straightforward, and a bit… dull?
Exile mini-sweeper in a graveyard cube. Good or too back breaking for certain decks. Probably hyperbole, but maybe it’s the right answer.
More cycling sweepers for red to sit alongside sweltering suns. Which do we prefer? Starstorm can sometimes deal with 5+ toughness, and Slice can sometimes clear up tokens and draw a card.
6 mana conditional flametongue? Requires a certain amount of deckbuilding to take advantage of, and is it enough by itself at that stage? Maybe not as a complete answer itself, maybe it’s a supplemental effect?
Already have a graveyard sweeper in Earth, do I want another? I suppose it’s slightly different with flashback so might be worth a punt?
Honourable mentions
These creatures are both great, but the problem card for me in this scenario is Oversold Cemetery. Having aggressive players having to face down a sweeper every turn (or every other turn) seems like it’s going to be too frustrating? Am I over-worrying here? I think they’d be fun with other return to hand and reanimator type effects.
Any thoughts?
I'd lean towards slightly over-worrying. Cemetery is only one card in your cube and wants a deck with a high creature count while decks that profit off of sweepers tend to have lower creature counts. You may have both in your pool and it still not be a no-brainer to include both.
One card I've considered for cubes closer to your power level is:
I haven't fully thought it through and I'm not sure it's the right fit for your cube, but it can have some interesting build around qualities: whether it's through a pants archetype, keeping your big reanimated creature, or even keeping your Marionette Master in play, and sending your artifact creatures to the graveyard for a mass trigger.
Why did Dusk // Dawn get cut?
Thanks! Divine Reckoning has always seemed fairly... terrible? Though I can see there's an appeal, I'm not sure it's quite right. Would have to be something I would test out, and there's not a lot of that happening at the moment lol.
Cut Dusk/Dawn as it's more of an aggressive card, and didn't think I needed that effect for them really.
Cut Dusk/Dawn as it's more of an aggressive card, and didn't think I needed that effect for them really.
