I like the ideas on their own, but I think you might need to reconsider the aggressive styles. People are going to want to play 2/2s for 3, so you might be want to be careful with how you punish your morph players. Getting a 2 power guy going in the red zone turn 2 is going to be quite a tempo swing against the morphs.
(and) Another MORPH cube
- Thread starter kevthewalker
- Start date
Re ur pingers:
Re ur pingers:
Those are inspired ideas! Where does the armor fit into this though?
You made me think of some other cards though, how would pingers go with these?
Too niche?
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I really like the pingers idea with those auras, very creative. Deep-slumber titan is probably too narrow; stuffy doll is a sweet card (and it makes -X -X until EOT removal better), but you have to use the time spiral art. Frozen solid seems interesting as well. Pingers can be a lot of fun, and having a few out seems like a really interesting dynamic with the gray ogres. You also have an excuse to run izzet staticaster!
If you go with a disruptive pingers strategy, maybe you should consider a tokens theme in another color?
If you go with a disruptive pingers strategy, maybe you should consider a tokens theme in another color?
Oops re illusionary armour, I thought it worked like crystalline nautilus.
Deep slumber Titan, probably a bit too narrow.
Frozen solid is fine.
Initiate of blood might be fun, but nothing special.
Repercussions affects *all* creatures, so no more chump blocking for you. It's a red aggro card.
Why would you ping stuffy doll? Surely just ping them?
Re the ping auras you can bleed into other colours, with things like deathtouch. Also:
Deep slumber Titan, probably a bit too narrow.
Frozen solid is fine.
Initiate of blood might be fun, but nothing special.
Repercussions affects *all* creatures, so no more chump blocking for you. It's a red aggro card.
Why would you ping stuffy doll? Surely just ping them?
Re the ping auras you can bleed into other colours, with things like deathtouch. Also:
The green cards are great suggestions!
Are expanding into some other colors going too far?
For example:
I also have a question about the 3-drop spot. Since I would like people to be dropping morphs on that turn, how heavy should I go in on 3 casting cost creatures? Originally that slot was saved exclusively for face-down creatures... Now I'm not so sure. Ideally it shouldn't be too crowded though. Thoughts?
Are expanding into some other colors going too far?
For example:
I also have a question about the 3-drop spot. Since I would like people to be dropping morphs on that turn, how heavy should I go in on 3 casting cost creatures? Originally that slot was saved exclusively for face-down creatures... Now I'm not so sure. Ideally it shouldn't be too crowded though. Thoughts?
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
If I were you, I would avoid the three slot for anything other than the most essential theme cards to encourage use of morphs. I only really like the shaman and ants from your list above.
In a world were most things are 2/2s you might want to look at combat tricks. Also worth thinking about spells that have added values due to morphs special features
In a world were most things are 2/2s you might want to look at combat tricks. Also worth thinking about spells that have added values due to morphs special features
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
With the bouncelands providing a form of ramp for each color, why not add untapers, and outlast lords to support a dragon tribal and +1 +1 counter theme:
Dragon Lords
Outlast Lords
Dragon Incentive Cards
Dragon Lords
Outlast Lords
Dragon Incentive Cards
I was thinking of going Dragon tribal, since Imperial Hellkite is a thing; however, aren't those megamorph dragon cards really bad? I haven't drafted any Dragons of Tarkir so I have no clue how they fare in limited, but 7 to unmorph seems really high just to add counters to other dragons.
Regarding the outlast lords, I think I have the Bond-Kin in already and did consider adding the whole suite in. The things holding me back are the 3-mana ones, namely Falconer and Tuskguard. They block 2/2's all day but compete for the morph slot (cc of 3). Do you think they're worth adding in anyway?
Cheers!
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
The theory would be that with the 10 bouncelands in the cube, anyone should be able to ramp up to them, and with the outlast lords, you aren't just buffiing your smaller dragons; you're giving them first strike, life link ect. Plus, with morph, you are already looking at a slower format, so 7cc unmorph should be doable.
I would run the 3cc outlast guys, since they already passed muster in a morph dominated format.
I would run the 3cc outlast guys, since they already passed muster in a morph dominated format.
So I managed to come up with a cube list that seems somewhat presentable, and I am sharing it so that I can get some feedback.
http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/26600
Please have a look and do give some comments, thanks a lot.
http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/26600
Please have a look and do give some comments, thanks a lot.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I was pleasently surprised by this, and hope it works out in the end. There are some obvious power disparities that should be smoothed out (cards like hunt master of the fells). A few of the morphs looked pretty bad too. Its hard to tell from a draft how things would play out, of course, but I felt like the cards interacted somewhat in the draft. I really liked the bouncelands as they helped address the somewhat wonky high costs of the older morph cards. They seem important to the format.
Looking forward to see how it evolves.
Looking forward to see how it evolves.
Thanks for commenting Grillo!
Which obvious disparities do you see besides Huntmaster? (Kirblinx mentioned that Mastery was overpowered as well; is it?) I played a lot of Innistrad draft back in the day but I never faced an active Huntmaster in anything other than cube and EDH, and it didn't seem that op to me. Then again, those are all very different formats. Should I cut him completely? Also, which morphs do you think are absolutely terrible?
Any comments on adding in another set of bouncelands (10)?
I'm curious how Vesuvian Shapeshifter works out. It seems like it might be good enough for normal cube.
the real problem with huntmaster is the kind of value you get from flipping him back and forth - if you're both topdecking, he gives you this, like, insurance that you'll always have stuff going on even as your opponent draws lands
also free searing blood is amazing
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Super amazing in a field of 3 mana 2/2s
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Experimenting with more bouncelands seems fine.
Because so many of the cards in the format are built around these really clunky mana points, really efficient cards with no real weaknesses are going to sort of over power the rest of the cube. On the other hand, I think its good to have some pushed cards just to provide some familiar, accessible strategies, for people new to the format, so they don't get discouraged while learning it. You just don't want those strategies to overshadow everything else in the cube.
In that vein, Akroma has to go, as that card just doesn't look beatable, and can be blinked into play. Huntmaster also looks nuts for the reasons given. Whisperwood elemental, whip of erobos, and noble hierarch also look very good, maybe too good.
Profane and cryptic command also look out of place in terms of power level, but maybe are fine as long as they don't become overshadowing. I kind of think profane command is just too good, as I am imagining a grindy, value driven format.
Really week cards will take longer to look over, but masked admirers is pretty much always too weak.
Shapeshifter is very good, esp if you have any morph support. When you turn it face up it copies the card's trigger as well, so you're paying 1U to draw 2 cards with something like Fathom Seer.
I originally had Stormbind in its slot. Is that a tamer replacement or still too much?
After much helpful feedback from you lovely lads, I have revised the list somewhat.
Here is the changelog:
OUT:
IN:
All the fetches were also replaced with a full set of scry temples, since they work so well with the bouncelands. Am now thinking whether another set of bouncies should go in, perhaps edging out the 10 tri-lands?
A few test drafts with the new list later and I am very pleased at how it is shaping out. I feel that the list is getting closer and closer to the point where I start acquiring the cards. Power level seems more flat and I even took a P1P1 Dimiss into Dream into a VERY fun Izzet pingers deck. Yay!
As always, comments and critiques are more than welcome here. Thanks again
Here is the changelog:
OUT:
IN:
All the fetches were also replaced with a full set of scry temples, since they work so well with the bouncelands. Am now thinking whether another set of bouncies should go in, perhaps edging out the 10 tri-lands?
A few test drafts with the new list later and I am very pleased at how it is shaping out. I feel that the list is getting closer and closer to the point where I start acquiring the cards. Power level seems more flat and I even took a P1P1 Dimiss into Dream into a VERY fun Izzet pingers deck. Yay!
As always, comments and critiques are more than welcome here. Thanks again
I think the confluences are at a much higher power level than any morph format. Wretched Confluence and Fiery Confluence especially, since they are so good at killing morphs.
Really like Goblin Tunneler, Volt Charge there.
Misthook Kirin is a decent megamorph that you can run to improve the morph density in white.
Really like Goblin Tunneler, Volt Charge there.
Misthook Kirin is a decent megamorph that you can run to improve the morph density in white.
The grixis confluences were brought in to replace the grixis commands. Wretched is very strong, I agree; it's a one-sided wrath. The black command isn't much fairer though. If neither work then replace with something else altogether? I was hoping for a modal spell of sorts in that spot though.
On the red confluence-command though, I think they are both comparable but command nukes a bounceland so I opted replacing with the confluence. 4 mana pyroclasm should be ok I think? And it can snipe some random artifact even.
I would also like Akroma replaced, but am unsure with what.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Yeah, I agree the confluences look nuts. Blue confluence is way better than cryptic, but the spell I think you want anyways is rewind
Wretched confluence is backbreaking good. Resolving that spell is basically going to feel like resolving a 5 mana, instant speed, cruel ultimatum. I would just pop in a ribbons of night for now.
After running it through another draft, I do think you want another set of bouncelands; though I would back them up with at least one set of CIPT lands they synergize with. Because of the high cost of a lot of the unmorphs, I think this is actually going to end up being a ramp format, with sequencing the competing uses of onboard mana sinks being a major theme. If thats true, it frees up some options for you, as you can start including stuff like level up dudes, or cycling cards, to supplement a core made up of morph cards that work well in the format. Lots of interesting places to go, and should be fun.
Another good low power format to look at is Laz's draw a card cube.
Wretched confluence is backbreaking good. Resolving that spell is basically going to feel like resolving a 5 mana, instant speed, cruel ultimatum. I would just pop in a ribbons of night for now.
After running it through another draft, I do think you want another set of bouncelands; though I would back them up with at least one set of CIPT lands they synergize with. Because of the high cost of a lot of the unmorphs, I think this is actually going to end up being a ramp format, with sequencing the competing uses of onboard mana sinks being a major theme. If thats true, it frees up some options for you, as you can start including stuff like level up dudes, or cycling cards, to supplement a core made up of morph cards that work well in the format. Lots of interesting places to go, and should be fun.
Another good low power format to look at is Laz's draw a card cube.
I like both Rewind and Ribbons of Night as cards but I'm not really feeling them as replacements in those slots.
Also thinking of replacing red Akroma with a dragon. I have a few choices but unsure which one exactly:
Also thinking of replacing red Akroma with a dragon. I have a few choices but unsure which one exactly:
Hi kev! You've inspired me to make a cube with heavy morph support. I am going in a different direction, but i would love to chat about some things that affect us both!
1) have you considered duplicates or triplicates of key morphs? One of the defining aspects of ktk was pinpointing which problem morph an opponent could have and playing around whichever could be afforded as a player's risk tolerance would allow. I am worried that singleton morphs will create too many variables and also spoil some games when another player has shown a morph to be in their match.
2) how are you trying to interact with morph at instant speeds? I really enjoyed smite the monstrous and pump in ktk to allow one player to interact with a morph without (or in addition to) a morph of their own.
1) have you considered duplicates or triplicates of key morphs? One of the defining aspects of ktk was pinpointing which problem morph an opponent could have and playing around whichever could be afforded as a player's risk tolerance would allow. I am worried that singleton morphs will create too many variables and also spoil some games when another player has shown a morph to be in their match.
2) how are you trying to interact with morph at instant speeds? I really enjoyed smite the monstrous and pump in ktk to allow one player to interact with a morph without (or in addition to) a morph of their own.