Card/Deck Archetypes - Going Big with BR

Lucre

Lucre

Series Preface:
I've been considering this for a while. A series where we can examine our cube compositions through the lens of deck availability and interactions.

So talk about synergy, draft process limitations and strengths of archetypes, bring up decks you've seen that have embodied what we are talking about, secret tech to strengthen it or unsuspected reasons it's being hosed.

Lets discuss archetypes here, in these posts! I wana know about your sweet tricks to make bigger, more controlling or midranged, mid to lategame red black decks work. Feel free to bring up jund and grixis but lets not cut off the discussion there!

{B/R} Lets talk about Rakdos{B/R}
-No, not cackler, think more like Kolaghan's Command.

I've found it's really hard to draft this deck in riptide cubes and slightly easier to draft it in Monolith Cubes and in Peasant. One of the biggest problems is how aggressive BR sections tend to be, and how poor they are at blocking. The shift away from efficient removal can also be a problem but real card quality/advantage in black tends to cost life, life neither it nor red knows how to protect or regain for the most part, and most #cubecurators aren't nearly as interested in making midgame black or red decks function on their own merits when they can eat off green or blue's plate since they are so often splashed anyway for the removal.

I'll try to get more pearls of wisdom rolling out here soon enough but I kinda wana go work out, I just really wanted to get this onto the board and outta my head.

So guys got any sweet stories about BR Wildfire, Dragon Control, Tempo-Ultimatum or Lategame-Blasting Station? A BR Planeswalker deck seems sweeter than ever now!
 
FlowerSunRain

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
R/B has access to Fire Covenant which is a huge draw to going big is the color combo. For three mana and 5-7 life you get an on board 3 for 1 that doesn't even kill any dudes you happen to have out, nevermind casting in response to an aura for total lolz. Unfortunately perhaps, this is just as much of a draw to decks that go smaller, losing tons of life to keep there cacklers relevant long enough to win the game.

The big R/B decks that I've seen some together are Jund Enchantress, furnace celebration decks and Grixis Grave Value (flashback/madness/looter synergy). I think there is a red/black deck that plays tons of removal and then resolves a Titan is available, but I think it is outclassed by Red/Blue (card draw), Black/White (epic stalling) and monoblack (Gray Merchant) are better at it. The go big goodstuffy decks just work better in three colors because you've got three colors of good stuff to pull from, its not really an indictment of Red/Black, if you are going to push synergy then off theme uses of a color are going to be less viable and the furnace celebration style decks (whether or not they even have the namesake card) have the theme support that makes them more attractive. That said, in my list Black/Red has all of the sweepers and plenty of card advantage engines, so some day someone might take them all and run with it and prove me wrong. It happens all the time.
 
Goldenpineapple

Goldenpineapple

The pre-mardu {R}{B}{W} deck was always a minor favorite among my players as "the removal deck," and that's basically what 'big rakdos' pans out to. Hand disruption/removal until you slam big dumb bombs. IMO this archetype is where reanimation/graveyard-to-hand effects feel most potent- their finishers hit very hard, and you have relevant spells where green decks flounder after their things die.

Red "rummaging" or just straight-up looting and black's card draw keep you on land drops, while potent removal and access to both 'other' wrath colors gives you a pretty huge range of spells that can make up this deck. The awkward thing is finding a sweet spot with your creatures to stave off aggro decks but punish even slower decks that will get more value than you- whether or not thrill-kill assassin is good enough is a good indicator of how this deck will generally do IMO. I only really have a few problems with the archetype in general:
  • It never ever kills resolved enchantments
  • The two colors with the most protection vs. them- be careful!
  • Cheap red creatures that aren't straight aggro but also aren't poisonous don't exist beyond grim lavamancer.
  • Almost every card you want is high-value and highly-picked- good luck not being cut!
Cards like profane command and foul renewal feel much better when you're playing towards them instead of using them as awkward curve-toppers.
My favorite building blocks for the archetype, along with similar cards:


My cube is more 'traditional' (AKA boring) so I can really see this archetype doing a lot more work in "every deck plays 15 creatures" riptide cubes.
 
Jason Waddell

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
{R}{B}{W} is the three-color combination I personally play most frequently in my cube, and I don't think I've ever played it non-aggro. Is that a failure of design?
 
spicewitch

spicewitch

Isn't Onderzeeboot using pingers as his cheap {R} control creatures? I can't remember if he's simply not supporting red aggro at all, or if he's got the pingers as an alternative alongside the usual small aggressive reds. But the idea is something along the lines of pinging away small things, and effects that cause big things to shatter when they get pinged.
 
Goldenpineapple

Goldenpineapple

Alfonzo Bonzo said:
Cards that aren't straight aggro but aren't grim lavamancer? Can you elaborate a bit on what you mean please?
Click to expand...
I'm speaking as someone with a very generic cube: I'm not pushing any super-specific archetypes, so take what I say with a grain of salt. 1/1s and even 2/2s are easily outclassed in my list. (Pingers may be especially good in your list, but are too weak in mine, etc.)
  • Red
  • Cheap (CMC <4)
  • Not strictly aggro
  • Still worth playing
Cards like these aren't really 'big rakdos' at all

And while you can argue that these WORK in big rakdos, they're a lot worse from behind without cantrips and draw effects- their synergies aren't quite up to snuff when you have too many creatures, and this deck can really go either way on its ratio (one of its main strengths).

Which leaves very little, and these aren't even slam dunks:

Compared to black's offerings red looks pretty paltry.
 
FlowerSunRain

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
From my list or formerly from my list that aren't listed above or custom (or work without my customization):


He's iffy, do these decks run power boosts? Probably doesn't count

Solid dudes, generate card advantage, make your burn work bigger.

As above, but even better.

Depending on your goblin depth finds a lot of great cards (Sharpshooter, Sparksmith, Siege Gang, Krenko, Guttersnipe, Grenzo, Heelcutter)

Mostly an even better version of Matron as most of the goblins are power 2 or less anyway besides Krenko and Heelcutter.

Turns trash is incinerates, sets up flashback/madness/delve.

More of a furnace celebration incentive, but no one likes attacking into it or burning it.

As a whole its not as good as black's suite, but combined with black's selection it might be good enough for a competitive deck?
 
Lucre

Lucre

Tuktuk is a great Wildfire card. Nights whipser, Demonic tutor, card advantageous planeswalkers and cards that net you both tempo and card advantage are really important to these strategies.

I'm on Waddel's team when it comes to burn. Burn spells are one of the best midranged card types you can find for their ability to play well on both aspects of your gameplan, defensively and pressuring. Having burn as your removal may seem mediocre as games go longer, since everyone's got really strong 4 drops or higher in cube, but being able to shut the door on a game after having been in control of it for a couple turns is a great asset.

I find a lot of my Grixis and Big Red decks function on that pressure principle. If I keep poking with marines it's difficult for the protoss to get enough gas to oppress me. Keeping people afraid and blocking / tapping too much mana for oblivion ring is almost as good as gaining life sometimes.

I also wanted my creatures to feel like spells in control decks, because if they weren't doing something the turn they entered, I could only really feel good playing them if I had laid the groundwork with with disruption and both red and black are great at this. Even just beating someone over the head for 4 hasted damage feels like it's almost worth a card if your lategame involves a little creature recursion in the form of say Necromancy, Cruel Ultimatum, or Profane Command.

It's really hard to play the efficient trades + pressure route of midranged in cube because the aggro decks are so fast and resilient and can attack you from so many angles. (any every get an aggro deck to where you wanted them and then just straight up lost to an ajani vengeant?)

It also doesn't help that your creatures are still usually smaller than green or white's guys for the same cost, but your plan to stay ahead of your opponent on life, rather than gaining life, doesn't work because so many of them have lifelink / etb triggers.
 
Diakonov

Diakonov

I run Lavamancer, Spikeshot Elder, and Sharpshooter. Fireslinger is borderline and after that is a precipitous drop-off in power level.

I mean...Razorfin Hunter? I guess?

Actually, Gelectrode can be pretty fun.

Sorta unrelated but I remember losing games to this card

 
ahadabans

ahadabans

Lucre said:
Are we talking the average riptide cube here?
And how good is gelectrode or sharpshooter in the average big rakdos shell?
Click to expand...


I can't say on either account. My cube is not typical even for Riptide and big Rakdos is not really a thing in my cube. That combination is almost always aggressive. I was only replying to the question on pingers in general. My group likes them and we've run probably all of the even borderline playable ones at one time or another.
 
Lucre

Lucre

I have the feeling that Big BR decks play an awful lot like big Izzet decks, except they are more proactive and their spells cost them more life. Also probably have fewer broken cards.
 
Grillo_Parlante

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Do you have an example of one of the peasent lists Lucre? I just have that attrition G/R list you posted earlier in my head.

B/R has a lot of removal, card selection/draw, and attrition elements; but I tend to think more G/B, because of how strong the midrange value cards are to return to hand.
 
safra

safra

I think this is the right place for the following post? Has it mattered before this point?


bloodsoaked champion is better than gravecrawler
(for my cube and maybe yours too? 2x in a 360.)

-i stopped at the drug store on my way home and bought some pretty decent drugs. The drugs guy told me they had a special on, because it was Monday. god, am i a target demographic, i think? anyway, it works, because i said sure, i'll pay the extra five dollars for the special, gimme a joint and some papers

but brave reader, when i went to pay (the threshold bonus was ALSO five dollars, who does this? terrible templating), he said 'no, wait, didn't you already pay?' and even though i argued with him once (as is only polite!!!) i got the cosmic hint and just high-tailed it outta there

god, the fuckups that work here, i think as i leave.
-even zombies, as excellent a tribe as it is (hello skinrender! tidehollow sculler you are my baby gal ilu <3) is ultimately limited to the creatures wizards prints as zombies, underusing (imo) some fun design space! here is where RAKDOS DASH adresses the issue flavourfully and in a way that allows aggro decks to selectively commit to the board and play around wraths (so awesome) and other sorcery-speed removal (even more awesome)

(all cards in arbitrary order, lists are not exclusive)
Cool


"Morph Cool"


Selected Bleed

-Ultimately, though, the real problem for my cube was the respective costs to bring them back. in life as in Magic cards, when you underpay, you get a really great high-end, but that with a few other things (goblin bombardment! my holodomor of zombies!) meant that I wanted a reason to hamfistedly justify my opinions re: the title.


-the Pack Rat dynamic (at what point does paying three mana and a card for a rat become worth more than your other options, and at what point is it time to totally commit to it?) carries over a little with the higher mana cost. Recurring your Gravecrawler is a no-brainer--you might not get to next turn--but choosing between recurring the Champion and activating another ability is surprisingly difficult sometimes. also you can recur him during the combat phase for falkenrath aristocrat triggers (so fun!)
-I wanted a less explosive combo with sacrifice effects and a more reliable trigger (again, relative lack of zombies and so i didn't trigger gravecrawler maybe as much as some of you? i didn't really want to go through rebuilding my cube to run zombies if i wasn't sure it was worth it, and i no longer am
-the shields-up/shields-down dynamic of Gravecrawlers and zombies rules, and it can be reproduced at a mechanical level that supports both having dudes on board and casting new ones with haste.
-switches the tribal support to human tribal, the only one that really does seem to work


anyway i crushed (2-1) with this tonight, check ittttt








-innocent blood, sorry, dash a guy
-imposing sovereign was supposed to be a check on the strategy, whoops, it's hilarious in it
-Alesha and Fulminator Mage together was just the right side of unfair
-the manabase is about as indulgent as this post
 
Eric Chan

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
Fantastic post, safra! I'm also of a mind to purge the Gravecrawlers from my list entirely in favour of Bloodsoaked Champions, as I've slowly been phasing out zombies in general, meaning that often the only way to reliably recur a Gravecrawler is with an activated Mutavault. Also, how gross is this



I'm all in favour of human tribal being the only supported tribe in cube - it's the one that naturally occurs in all five colours, and having small incidental rewards makes it so that a drafter isn't punished for not going all-in on the tribe.
 
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