Card/Deck Archetypes - Going Big with BR

Lucre

Lucre

Yeah I'm having a hard time seeing a real downside to this shift, besides maybe diversity. Would we swap out more ghoul attackers for humans? My main issue with human tribal is that it's bonuses often feel like traps to me or like the don't contribute any new gameplay to decks besides Xathrid.

I'm also not really all for a "dash deck" but I have to say a sprinkling of dash can be really sweet, as long as you aren't on the "all volcanic hammers all the time" plan for removal.

These things don't really influence RB control or midranged getting better outside of Xathrid getting better, but I'm glad I was let in on these revelations.
 
safra

safra

Eric Chan said:
Fantastic post, safra! I'm also of a mind to purge the Gravecrawlers from my list entirely in favour of Bloodsoaked Champions, as I've slowly been phasing out zombies in general, meaning that often the only way to reliably recur a Gravecrawler is with an activated Mutavault. Also, how gross is this

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delirious biznasty gross (and fun! do you attack with the necromancer to trigger raid? can your opponent be more efficient than your recurring 2/1 for two?)

Lucre said:
Yeah I'm having a hard time seeing a real downside to this shift, besides maybe diversity. Would we swap out more ghoul attackers for humans? My main issue with human tribal is that it's bonuses often feel like traps to me or like the don't contribute any new gameplay to decks besides Xathrid.
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Right now I'm running 2x Champion of the Parish, 2x Bloodsoaked Champion, 1x Xathrid and 1x Mayor in 360 and they each let humans decks grow on a different axis (vertical growth, recursive aggro, grindy tokens). I'll admit Mayor is maybe a concession but I'm running 64/158 (41%) human creatures so it's not hard to find incidental synergy.

I'm also not really all for a "dash deck" but I have to say a sprinkling of dash can be really sweet, as long as you aren't on the "all volcanic hammers all the time" plan for removal.


These things don't really influence RB control or midranged getting better outside of Xathrid getting better, but I'm glad I was let in on these revelations.
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Yeah, me neither - I'm really into this whole 'themeless theme' thing that some of you guys are doing. I made a decision to run a few more haste creatures, added Ambuscade Shaman and some dash guys, and then Bloodsoaked "Two Shields" Champion really found a home. One of the reasons I switched away from Gravecrawlers was because I really didn't like the idea of them with Goblin Bombardment (i have a lot of x/1s and x/2s!). I have a close top-end there with Ophiomancer (who def supports control and midranged strats!) but the removal to match is for sure a priority. It's less reliant on Pillar of Flame effects, though, since instant-speed removal can be cast during the beginning of combat step to thwart haste dudes.

As far as control/midrange black, I try to lean on that a little in my gold section but 2 Shieldz has been pretty sweet for black aggro so i guess given that I started my cube's life with Vampires aggro and am now scatteredly including ways to swing dudes the turn they're cast and some dash dudes maybe it really isn't that hard to actually crack some of these 'cube challenges' if you think about them in a procedural / mechanical way.
 
safra

safra

Lucre said:
omg whats 2shieldz?
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bloodsoaked champion

i paid a hundred dollars for my sleeves, er
get real blazed and write a pseudo-feature

PULL UP TO THE SCENE, MY SKILL CEILING'S LIFTING

@rasmus: most of them! I'm heavy into the CMC 3 or less paradigm so it's basically your pick of targets. It's a lower-powered card for sure but a surprisingly solid one when it comes to actual play.
 
Grillo_Parlante

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
So this seems like a B/R haste based aggro deck borrowing some recursive elements, and using dash to get around sorcery speed removal?

What are the best midrange elements for it? Or does the deck shift more from B/R to G/R/b in that incarnation?
 
Diakonov

Diakonov

safra, I just looked at your cube for the first time and I have to say that I really like your list. It's definitely one that I'm going to keep my eye on. You should bump your thread.

And Lucre, WHEN are you going to make your cube thread...I've been waiting to see that since the day I joined.
 
Lucre

Lucre

I don't have a cube of my own anymore though I've started working on a list I wana make! It's actually been a while since I had one of my own again, though we have a peasant list as a group that I try to curb. I think including that one I've had like 3 cubes in my life.

Honestly I sorta don't need one since Toronto is so rife with cubes, but I think I'd like it, if things fall apart with my travel plans this year, I might start putting together a proxy paradise instead of spending money in the american south / on decadent behavior (lol what could be more decadent than fucking magic cards).

I wana link to safra's list though!
 
safra

safra

Grillo_Parlante said:
So this seems like a B/R haste based aggro deck borrowing some recursive elements, and using dash to get around sorcery speed removal?

What are the best midrange elements for it? Or does the deck shift more from B/R to G/R/b in that incarnation?
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It can get more midrange by combining with instant-speed tokens (still get the Ambuscade Shaman buff when they ETB), splashing another colour (usually GRb but often WBr). I haven't been really pushing it much, more just a few haste dudes and dash guys (ambuscade shaman is the most egregious inclusion - i was trying Fires in G/R before this with Primal Forcemage et al and it wasn't really cutting it but switching to BR colours has made a heck of a difference).

I'll bump my thread with a few questions for feedback!
 
Grillo_Parlante

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
safra said:
i was trying Fires in G/R before this with Primal Forcemage et al and it wasn't really cutting it but switching to BR colours has made a heck of a difference).
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And gruul losses again :eek:

Really liking this dash mechanic. Not only is it a late game mana sink for aggressive decks, but the interactions with "whenever you cast a creature" or "whenever a creature ETBs" cards is great. Cards like foundry street denizen, mogg conscripts, and goblin cohort really benefit from it in limited environments; and mardu woe-reaper becomes great disruptive tech. in graveyard focused cubes.

Anyone tried Kolaghan forerunners?
 
Diakonov

Diakonov

Yeah, my first thought was Pandemonium. Dash works double-time there since your creatures will always be safe in your hand. Is it too poisonous?

I've always been a big fan of Quirion Dryad.

Edit: sorta obvious but Dash also goes really well with Raid, Battalion, Bloodthirst, etc.
 
safra

safra

Grillo_Parlante said:
Anyone tried Kolaghan forerunners?
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Tried it, wasn't good enough for me but might barely be playable for you. I wouldn't run it over other options though.

I think it's worth emphasizing the power of dash:

I'm an aggressive deck, I have two dudes on the board at the start of my turn. My opponent has a wall of omens and a bunch of wraths and o-rings in their deck. It's way smarter to dash Mardu Strike Leader (and maybe another card, too!) and have them return to my hand at end of turn, and I get in extra attackers they can't deal with at the same time. This on its own is powerful enough that it doesn't need bonus synergy - the synergy is there at a mechanical level with the speed of the opponent's answers.

I listed some cards earlier but here are a few more, hope it helps!

-flash dudes
-haste dudes
-dash dudes
 
Grillo_Parlante

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
safra said:
Tried it, wasn't good enough for me but might barely be playable for you. I wouldn't run it over other options though.

I think it's worth emphasizing the power of dash:

I'm an aggressive deck, I have two dudes on the board at the start of my turn. My opponent has a wall of omens and a bunch of wraths and o-rings in their deck. It's way smarter to dash Mardu Strike Leader (and maybe another card, too!) and have them return to my hand at end of turn, and I get in extra attackers they can't deal with at the same time. This on its own is powerful enough that it doesn't need bonus synergy - the synergy is there at a mechanical level with the speed of the opponent's answers.
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Yeah, I really like that aspect of it. It makes instant speed removal and holding up mana better, as well as providing an aggro deck with a way to play around removal thats built into the mechanics of the cube and dosen't require a further slot investment. Probably want to suppliment it with more draw-go, flash, or on-board mana sinks to make people use their mana well; all of which seem like positive elements to add.

Also, raid is good with it, though I thought that too obvious to mention.
 
safra

safra

yeah, the first alternate cost (dash) triggers the second one (raid) and that's why I've been saying that running more haste dudes has made Bloodsoaked Champion really great

i will say that I run more counterspells than you guys do, as well as a bunch of instant-speed (and not-instant-speed) disruption, which means interacting on the opponent's turn is possible, just harder. I'd try to duplicate that dynamic before pushing the dash/raid synergy more.
 
Grillo_Parlante

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Yeah, I think this is probably a good way to structure the sort of aggro disruption/aggro control/pressure control type strategies I talked about in my article for a higher power format. It lets you run a high removal count, but not devalue creatures in a way that ends up durdling the environment, since your aggro decks have a way to effectively blank a certain % of that removal. Very smart.
 
vennythekid

vennythekid

Grillo_Parlante said:
Yeah, I think this is probably a good way to structure the sort of aggro disruption/aggro control/pressure control type strategies I talked about in my article for a higher power format.
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Can you link or point me in a direction to this article? It sounds interesing and I'd like to read it
 
Dom Harvey

Dom Harvey

Contributor
I fully endorse Dash/haste as well as Welder Reanimator (which maybe deserves its own post/thread?). Sacrifice shenanigans are still the gold standard for BRx IMO, WotC has pushed it so hard in BR and there's a ton of implicit and explicit support you can draw from other colours. It hits the sweet spot of being both aggressive (but not oppressively so) and able to compete with midrange/control later in the game.

I had good results in the Magic Online Legacy Cube with BR Control; the format was very creature-heavy with few ways to go over the top, so planeswalkers or solid threats (Desecration Demon) backed up by tons of removal was a solid strategy. It's easy to recreate that in Cube, but it's not particularly interesting. You need to have enough card draw/selection (f/e Temples, Magma Jet, Night's Whisper/Read the Bones; Phyrexian Arena if it isn't too slow nowadays) but everything else is standard. Trading Post might be nice as a colourless 'planeswalker' that goes well with any Welder stuff?
 
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