Card/Deck Astral Slide

I think that looks pretty good, though I would of course like to see the bouncelands to make cloud really shine.

This looks like its geared towards being a control deck, with eternal dragon as a finisher, cloud as a ramping source, and a sweeper as well as a few counterspells. Though its possible to run some more general blink creatures and promote a tempo deck as well. It shouldn't take much, say galepowder mage and flickerwisp?

Do you have a R/W deck in mind? Might as well look at lightning rift while doing this I suppose.

If we are making a custom astral slide, it might be nice to expand the blink clause out to hit artifacts, so you can value blink wellsprings.
The unfortunate problem with red is that the cyclers in that color kinda... suck? Like, blast from the past is about it, right? It could still work, but it'd be more splash already... I dunno

I think Slide actually makes a really good Protect the Queen strat, convinced by the Exalted Angel. In fact, if it worked consistently enough, it'd probably be too powerful for a format like yours? You rejected stonecloaker on the premise of effect density, but slide could blink a thing 4, 5, 6 times? It's like build your own Aetherling. I also think it ties well into green. There are good cyclers there, and really good etbs. Your format is loaded with good targets from CMC3 all the way up. Green also enables a Loam engine with Blasted Landscape. Almost a lockout at that point.....

That might be a useful customization, especially for penny formats.

EDIT: Important discovery thanks to the wonders of Getherer:
Decree of Justice (good one I forgot)
Eternal Witness (Actually just good on it's own. Turn Blasted Landscape into 2: draw a card. repeatable once a turn)
Now that's a value combo right there. Grind out 1/1's turn after turn.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I was kind of wondering if maybe rift could justify itself just off of cycling lands from the BLB? Maybe too cute without actual red cyclers.

Thats a good point about it potentially being too good. I would probably give it a try anyways, probably with some sort of cap on how many cycling lands you can take. It has that weakness of being a pure synergy card that might balance it out.

That whole land package is pretty neat, and I feel Inscho has explored that territory more than I. It would be a lot of fun to have something like the pauper jund loam decks, with stuff like tilling treefolk (which I kind of like better than loam in cube), grim discovery, and retrace cards.

Of course, given my general distaste for true sweepers, I would love to run a threshold sweeper:



cycle those lands! That card is probably way too janky though.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
You know, there are a few legitimately good black cards with cycling



Thats some nice density with the white cards, and than you could mix in a little reanimation across white and black
 

Kirblinx

Developer
Staff member
Maybe we should ask Laz on this topic. As in his draw a card cube he mentioned that he was thinking of implementing slide but in the end didn't do so. Seems like he decided to go with this card instead:


I can see why he chose Spirit Cairn though, due to being a close analog to Lightning Rift and working with other effects than just cycling. . Also, Astral Slide requires two things, cyclers and things to flicker. Spirit Cairn requires only the cyclers to get its engine going (and can incidentally hate on opponents doing the same thing).

It doesn't seem like something you can just trow into a cube with some cyclers and expect it to do anything. I feel like you are going to have to start a new design with this as your starting point and branch from there. It just seems that little bit too narrow to work in any average designed cube.
 
Grillo, could you expand on your comment regarding Enlightened Tutor please? I've been fairly against tutors (particularly the mirage ones) as my feel was that they reduced deck variety and interaction as you would just move more towards your combo piece. I recently added it though because I hoped it might give white decks help around more ways to interact with other themes in the cube - particularly searching for sac artifacts like blasting station or control cogs for auriok salvagers.

I've been thinking about cycling recently too, for a couple of reasons - Incho's cube got me thinking about the cycling lands - they help with mana flood and work well in a turn two environment, both things I was looking for. But maybe I can't help myself and have to make everything synergise with everything else and went instinctively to bouncelands. The second reason was the necro of the aristocrats thread which linked to the aggro thread (I think) where CML talked about vintage masters and the cycling there. I already run a lot of the 'good' cycling cards in my cube so it was interesting.

Back the bouncelands/cycling idea: Do you ever just throw some ideas together and see what might stick to help generate interesting ideas? This is one of those thowing mud and seeing what sticks ideas:

http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/47920

From cycling to bouncelands, to return a land, to landfall. Leading to panorma's and lair lands, leading to neo-shards of alara. It's more than likely rubbish and completely unthought through, but my next thought was morph, so it's interesting to see some of the thinking mirrored here. It does seem like it would need to be built from the ground up though. Also need to reference Laz's draw a card cube and Anotak's loam experiment. I think there's potentially something here, if only an interesting throught experiment.

Kirblinx is right that astral slide requires two things, so my instinct would be that lightning rift would be 'better', but they're both possible I guess, just doubtful how good they are.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I think its a little telling that we're suddenly now drawing a line between astral slide and lightning rift in terms of narrowness; after immediately having argued that the differences between counterspell and astral slide were relative.

Grillo, could you expand on your comment regarding Enlightened Tutor please? I've been fairly against tutors (particularly the mirage ones) as my feel was that they reduced deck variety and interaction as you would just move more towards your combo piece. I recently added it though because I hoped it might give white decks help around more ways to interact with other themes in the cube - particularly searching for sac artifacts like blasting station or control cogs for auriok salvagers.

I would say that I'm against tutors as a tool to artificially create build around redundancy.

One of the mistakes I think I made with the innistrad theme cube was that I wanted to have a lot of build arounds (burning vengeance etc.) and when you approach design from that perspective you want to provide tutors so people can actually play the decks as they were intended.

One of the big problems with these narrow build arounds is that they are the singular engine of the deck or archetype, and playing with that engine is what makes those decks fun. As we all know from bitter experience, you can draft a card or two, run them in your final 40, and never see them all evening, which sucks both in terms of competitiveness and fun if you never see your critical build around piece. And some drafters will stay away from them if they don't want to be overly dependent on one card (had this problem with pod).

I added a bunch of tutors to help with that (which I still think is a necessity if you are going down this design path) and the results were some ugly packs, with weird distributions of build around cards and tutors, which could be very awkward to navigate. Tutors get to a point where they represent blanks in a card list, as they are effectively their as flexible singleton breaks.

As for their ability to create poor redundant gameplay, I never really had that issue, but I could certainly see its potential to become an issue, especially if you have some power spikes in your list, and player strategy is just "draw bomb X" or "draw tutor to get bomb X." That just sounds miserable.

Enlightened tutor I've traditionally tried to run a number of times, and its always been miserable. The problem with it is that it already represents card disadvantage, and the number of impactful artifacts or enchantments in most cube that merit card disadvantage to grab is a very small pool. This makes it a narrow tutor that you run generally to either enable some other narrow build around piece (which often tend to be quirky artifacts or enchantments /cough astral slide), or getting some powerful artifact or enchantment (bitterblossom...which brings us back to the repetitive play pattern issue you pointed out before).

In addition, because the pool of cards it can grab is so small, a certain % of games it becomes a dead card when you draw card X, as its only real function is to serve as a placeholder in your hand for card X.

Now, there are tutors that I do like.



Trinket mage is grabbing utility cards and at worse is a gray ogre, so it has a pretty reasonable ceiling with a reasonable floor (in that format). Vault is a powerful effect that requires a player to think several turns in advance to use effectively, mystical teachings is a great source of card advantage for answer based decks that may need specific answers to function, sylvan ranger (and company) address negative variance issues, and muddle the mixture has great utility as a counterspell and answer finder with a range of interesting targets (starstorm, rough // tumble, rolling thunder, savage twister)

The common thread is that these tutors are more about finding utility pieces and answers than being the sinew making an inherently inconsistent strategy consistent (with the exception of vault, who I forgive...though I did just cut it so maybe my subconscious is getting ahead of me).
 
I think one key way we may be mis-classifying Astral Slide is that the deck exists without it. "The astral slide deck" can just be the same blink deck, but with an astral slide in it. The Burning Vengeance deck is just a deck with flashback spells without burning vengeance, but can still be a deck (maybe worse). Astral slide is simply a blink enabler; the blink deck wouldn't miss it more than say, Galepowder mage, unless it would in fact be more overall powerful. Since the blink deck already exists, it just one tool in the deck. You don't not have a blink deck because you are missing one of the enablers. You don't not have a BUG graveyard deck just because you are missing the Sidisi, but she would have made it much more powerful. We just call it a new deck because it uses a unique avenue.

Now, the deck wouldn't look the same without Slide because you wouldn't draft cyclers as highly (maybe), but in a format that has been described above, cyclers might be natural parts of deck-building and Slide a natural tool.

Spirit Cairn may be the real card that the idea is looking for because it works with a ton more:
faithless looting
tormenting voice
compulsive research
thirst for knowledge
merfolk looter
thought courier
looter il-kor
Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
Oath of Jace
thoughtsieze
raven's crime

But also still works with
complicate
miscalculation
krosan tucker
etc.
 
The common thread is that these tutors are more about finding utility pieces and answers.

I still fail to see how ET can't do this too. I've played it for years in D&T and it's always a surefire way to find that one piece of utility, or those lonely answers. Makes me sad, or mad, or something, that testing hasn't proven it out.
Citadel Siege
oblivion ring
temporal isolation
bow of nylea
oath of jace
doomwake giant

I mean, you have tested it, so I guess it really isn't all that.... My subconscious just wants to fight that notion so hard! :confused:

EDIT: I do like the look of muddle the mixture. If I stop running negate, I could sure see running that to provide some cool tech.
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
I think the difference between putting the tutored card in hand and putting it on top of your library (i.e. card parity vs card disadvantage) is real. It's definitely worth it if you're tutoring for crazy shit like Moat or Sword of Fire and Ice, but the less game-breaking your targets are, the worse ET gets.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I think one key way we may be mis-classifying Astral Slide is that the deck exists without it. "The astral slide deck" can just be the same blink deck, but with an astral slide in it. The Burning Vengeance deck is just a deck with flashback spells without burning vengeance, but can still be a deck (maybe worse). Astral slide is simply a blink enabler; the blink deck wouldn't miss it more than say, Galepowder mage, unless it would in fact be more overall powerful. Since the blink deck already exists, it just one tool in the deck. You don't not have a blink deck because you are missing one of the enablers. You don't not have a BUG graveyard deck just because you are missing the Sidisi, but she would have made it much more powerful. We just call it a new deck because it uses a unique avenue.

Thats a fair point, and one I can relate to. I run this card in the penny cube




Originally, I was kind of on the fence about it because I thought of it as a build around card, which it is in pauper, but it really isn't in cube. Build arounds don't fit into existing decks: they force decks to be built around them, which is why they are so problematic in cube where only 1-2 copies exist, and where they may never show up over the course of a game.

Tortured existence doesn't really require any support, as its just a variant of raise dead effect, which is quite a powerful effect in itself in singleton based formats. Any grindy black deck is on the lookout for these types of effects, and the threshold for playability is remarkably low: are you a slower deck playing creatures? This is like recurring nightmare in powered cubes, which very quickly stops being a build around, because all you need to do is run it alongside any of the other million ETB creatures you were going to run anyways. Their is no actual building around that occurs.

This is different from, say, birthing pod. While its true that ETB creatures are fairly common, it does require you to draft around the concept of building a pod chain, which is kind of a bummer if you don't ever draw pod. This is something that even was noted when pod was legal in modern, that the deck played completely different in games where you drew pod vs. games where you don't draw pod, and which is reflected in the aggressive singleton breaking it receives in cube to even work.

Where does astral slide fall on that metric? I would say way past the point represented by pod, which is kind of reflected in all of the support we are talking about to add for it (singleton breaks, narrow tutors to get it, warping the entire way we work the basic land box, possible custom versions of the card). Even birthing pod doesn't require that level of support to function (and for the record I don't like pod).

The problem with astral slide is that its a combo card; it doesn't naturally fit into the blink deck unless you draft cyclers to support it. And your reward for assembling your combo of slide, target, and cycler isn't that great (or consistent in execution): very close to the same thing that momentary blink can do consistently for far less mana and trouble.

Another comparison (and excellent example of the merits of flexible design that still provides draft direction) is Galepowder mage, which doesn't actually need any specialized drafting or building to function: its perfectly fine incidentally blinking whatever ETB creatures you find or removing blockers so your ground force can hit--interactions almost as common to cube as the basic lands counterspell is cast off of. Galepowder tends to get miss-evaluated as a "blink" card for the "blink deck" when you really should be running it in any deck that can support a four drop. A reasonably sized evasive body that can remove blockers is game winning amazing, and the ability to value blink is just gravy.

And this is kind of that healthy spot that tortured existence or recurring nightmare inhabit (I can't believe I'm saying something positive about nightmare) where you might take the card down a certain drafting direction, but its independently strong enough to stand on its own, and doesn't ask the drafter to warp their draft around them, unless they wish to. Its hard for me to see Astral slide inhabiting that space, without a lot of invasive support, and even than I'm skeptical if the payoff is worth the trouble. At the end of the day its just an exotic blink effect.

Sorry if it seems like I'm dog piling btw, just an interesting topic.
 
A lot of really insightful thought, useful infos, and examples.

Sorry if it seems like I'm dog piling btw, just an interesting topic.
No need to apologize for being interested in something, there's nothing wrong with showing interest.

Another thing that there's no shame in doing is changing one's mind, which I think I'm slowly doing. Slide does seem a little narrow on multiple counts. I will say that format suggestions above make it seem like, with added BLB help, there is a place for it if the environment is crafted such that it's a valuable inclusion. I like the suggestion of Morph + Cycling + bounceland base + having slide in the cube.

My mind is slowly turning towards Spirit Cairn, which has much better incidental support already. Raven's crime is a sweet interaction, as are looters.

I will say that the way cards are drafted can make a big difference in how internal evaluations are made. Drafting Tenchester, you have 8-10 first picks and less cards are taken out of packs, so you are more likely to be able to assemble key pieces without them being swiped. With our Cairn as my new hero-of-the day, I can be in WB aggro packs 1-3, see Cairn pack 4, and switch over to WB grindfest, looking for discard spells to back it up packs 4-8, and maybe splash into red or blue for some discard draw spells. There seems like a lot more build-around freedom in this way, because people tend to stay out of each others hair more.
 
It's really odd for me to see Spirit Cairn hyped. I mean...



{2}{W}{W} for one 1/1 flyer is a horrible, horrible deal.
{2}{W}{W}{W} for two 1/1 flyers is still a horrible deal.
{2}{W}{W}{W}{W} for three 1/1 flyers... Is still a horrible deal.
{2}{W}{W}{W}{W}{W} for four 1/1 flyers... is nudging closer to probable.
{2}{W}{W}{W}{W}{W}{W} for five 1/1 flyers is starting to get interesting, but that's five discarded...
It's a horrible deal when lined up against one-shot spells, but this is added value onto things you are already doing. That's 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 taps with your Merfolk looter, and using a mana gives you a magical bonus on top of your card selection. Now, the three mana initial investment means the environment needs to be not cutthroat. This is also over 5 turns, not spending all that mana in one shot.

Furnace Celebration is another good example: "{3}{R}{R}, sac a permanent" is a horrid deal for a spell that deals 2 to a target, but Furnace celebration isn't doing that. It's sitting there adding value to your normal flow.

Like Furnace Celebration, I'll admit that the initial investment is a lil' steep, and would have to be acceptable in the speed of the fmt. Wonder what speed it would take?
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I think it would be fine at normal bounceland speeds.

It actually folds rather nicely with low power black decks, which have a lot of "rat" type effects to provide hand disruption. I think we've already laid out a reasonable number of cycling effects in white and black, and it shouldn't be difficult to support a density in green as well. Thats a fair amount of effect redundancy. It certainty seems to fit into W/Bs traditional theme of slow value accumulation.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Interestingly enough, I've been going over this horribly written (but insightful!) article by a guy that was a big deal in the pauper brewing scene a couple years ago, and came across this exert, which I think applies to our tutor discussion. Edits are mine, translation from the Latin. It reads like the long lost treatise of a 17th century alchemist.

Additionally, if your deck has “tutoring” effects such as transmute cards, Mystical Teachings or Trinket Mage or just a decent amount of deck manipulation, it is occasionally acceptable to run a single copy of a card. Examples of singletons are Grim Harvest, in Blue Black midrange decks, and the searchable Capsize, in blue red Cloudpost decks....

....I would recommend every deckbuilder evaluate the purpose of every single card in their deck, especially cards of which they run single copies. If you run even a single copy of situational cards that you can tutor for, in your main deck, you risk drawing them naturally...

...If you are running a combo deck and generally always transmute for the same few cards, I would recommend running none or very few copies of situational cards and instead add more copies of the key components or efficient deck manipulation. This will increase your likelihood of drawing the combination of cards you need to win, while reducing your chances of drawing cards that at best stall and may cause tempo loss and contribute to you losing.

So I guess that ultimately frames it better than I was doing.

I was trying to use tutors to grab single copies of cards, and than you would draw them naturally and it was the worst thing ever. Stuff like "I ran this tutor just to grab <insert> build around> or tinker for <insert one of fat artifact I run> or enlightened tutor for bitterblossom. Than card X swims into your hand.

"Situational" is probably not the correct word choice he should be using; more like the tutors are either limited in functionality themselves, or lack depth of targets. So broad tutors or tutors with a wide range of utility targets are ideal. The problem I always had with enlightened tutor was the lack of depth of targets to warrant the card disadvantage.

Its interesting that he points out the potential tempo loss from casting the tutor, as that was essentially the anti-demonic tutor argument LSV made in some video I watched a year or two ago, and have posted on this forum a couple times.
 

Laz

Developer
It's really odd for me to see Spirit Cairn hyped. I mean...



{2}{W}{W} for one 1/1 flyer is a horrible, horrible deal.
{2}{W}{W}{W} for two 1/1 flyers is still a horrible deal.
{2}{W}{W}{W}{W} for three 1/1 flyers... Is still a horrible deal.
{2}{W}{W}{W}{W}{W} for four 1/1 flyers... is nudging closer to probable.
{2}{W}{W}{W}{W}{W}{W} for five 1/1 flyers is starting to get interesting, but that's five discarded...


Well, since Spirit Cairn was invoked in my name, I feel it is important to weigh in and explain some of those choices, as well as how I feel about Astral Slide, and why I didn't go down that path. First thing that is important to understand is that the Draw-a-Card cube is mostly about value maximization. The lower power level, as well the slower speed of the format allows players to play 3-mana do nothings, and overall it tends to favor decks that can create some sort of grindy midrange engine, I have even seen such an engine incorporated into what I would call one of the premium aggro decks of the format, UW Heroic. That said, Astral Slide would likely do the same, but I found that it was harder to get the density of cycling cards compared to discard outlets, and discard had strong crossover with the Madness and Graveyard themes that were already in the list (though I have since updated both Spirit Cairn and Lightning Rift to not trigger off of opposing discard/cycling). Lightning Rift also offers a more consistent reward than Astral Slide, since the format doesn't have the normal densities of enter-the-battlefield effects in order to accommodate all of the Cycling/Bestow/Madness creatures. It also had the benefit of preventing two drafters from valuing Cycling cards very highly and cannibalizing each other's decks.
I am doubtful that Spirit Cairn would work in a faster format, but in a format where playing a Bounceland to pick up a cycling land is a play you are excited to make (the value!), it is one more piece in a value-generation puzzle.

Spirit Cairn also accomplished a mental design goal of providing build-around cards for the lesser supported enemy colour-pairs. I was less successful with this, though Spirit Cairn was a good example, deriving most of its support from Red and Black, while white had explicit design pairs with Blue and Green. Lab Maniac also fitted here, deriving support from Black and Green, while Blue was explicitly paired with White and Red. Tortured Existence is really the odd one out, combining best with it's own colour, Black.
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
To be clear, I love the effect on Spirit Cairn, and making Lantern Kamis with every discard is a sweet effect, I just don't like the effect on a three mana do nothing card. Like, I would probably cube

Lantern Bearer
Creature - Spirit
Whenever you discard a card, you may pay {W}. If you do, put a 1/1 white Spirit creature token with flying onto the battlefield.
3/3
 

Kirblinx

Developer
Staff member
Maybe we should just change the name of this thread to [SCD] Spirit Cairn...
(I'm sorry I mentioned the card :p)

But to help throw it back on the Astral Slide discussion. After doing a bit of searching on Cubetutor I noticed that two users here have cubes with Astral Slide:
Aston - Graveyard Cube
Chris: MTGO Academy - Ecumenopolis Enslaved

and a deck from each of their cubes to give a vague idea on legitimate deck viability:

Aston's draft of Graveyard Cube on 04/02/2014 from CubeTutor.com












Nearly Naya Cycling from CubeTutor.com











Also wanted to add this deck, as it looks like an absolute blast:

Trainwreck 4c Cycling from CubeTutor.com











You have two different approaches. Chris with his full on cycling archetype in his cube, or Aston who mainly focuses on lands. The land option would be easier with ULD or some options in BLB but I still don't know if it still makes them worth running. Always better to see how the decks go in action rather than on paper, but at least this lays out what possible decks can come out of this card.
 
Just FYI I have never done a real draft nor played with the Graveyard Cube and it hasn't been updated in a couple years probably, so it may not be the best source of information.
 
So resurrecting this thread to see if anyone has new discussion to add. Cast Out really intrigued me because it's an enchantment that cycles (with a really desirable ETB effect), which sets it up for replenish (which could be it's own thread for all you could be doing with that card). And this of course also ties in with slide.

Astral Slide has a couple issues I see though.
  • For one, modern blink is just so much easier to do. From old school momentary blink (flashback made that card), to hyper focused stuff like Ghostly Flicker, to all the ETB/LTB creatures which do it as a side effect now (Flickerwisp/Restoration Angel), to the attack trigger dudes (Galepowder Mage/Brago, King Eternal), to just plain bounce/replay strategies (Crystal Shard). Astral Slide in comparison is like doing long division when you have a calculator on your phone.
  • Two, how do you run enough cycle cards in a deck to make the trigger reliable and how do you build a deck around a single copy of slide?
Something working in slide's favor I feel is that flicker effects are so ridiculously abusable these days. I found in most of my lower powered rare cubes it was one of the best strategies in the meta without me even try to make it good. It utterly broke token decks for instance. As ETB effects have gotten more and more pushed, flicker effects have just gotten that much more value degenerate. In theory, I feel you could make Astral slide the only way to abuse blink effects and it might still be good enough with the proper support. That's how high the ceiling is on blink as an archetype in a midrange centric list.

Thoughts? Is it just still too narrow and/or underpowered?
 
Thought I'd post a deck list here. I've been doing a lot of tweaking/testing with my current combo list and came up with what which I feel might be the best way to get Slide working in cube. Not sure where the power level of this falls (though I suspect reasonably high). What I built is based in an Abzan control shell (basically a rock deck).

The key pieces however are LFTL, cycle lands with Slide and some value creatures with ETB/LTB triggers (so it's GW base, but I added black for more control options). Toss in some graveyard synergies, and you have a ton of places to take a deck list like this in a draft. This could easily go more aggressive (things like Vengevine/Wild Mongrel), and LFTL has obvious synergy with landfall (and therefore with aggressive lines of play that can go into red - another color with some graveyard synergy options).

Again, what I built here is more of a control oriented list. It has a lot of neat synergies (one thing I love about rock decks - they are brimming with value and always have multiple lines of play) . Slide is still a bit clunky, but if you can loop something like Angel of Despair, the value it generates (essentially for free) is substantial. Draw a card and destroy a permanent repeatable effect is a hard position to lose from.

There's also the super degenerate lark into guide combo, all possible off of a cycle trigger with Astral Slide in play. These are older creatures - that's just where I took it using my combo list (which is retro creature focused). I see no reason this isn't equally good with a more modern creature suite though. It's probably especially good in lowered powered midrange lists given how value based gameplay tends to dominate there.

Side note... those interested in Replenish may also be interested in this. I feel like the new Cast Out is begging to be abused by Replenish. Cycle it early to smooth your draw, and then Replenish it later as removal. This works especially well in this list since you can get second uses on deed, and maybe a library/wake off incidental dredge/wayfinder interactions. Pretty cool stuff. Interactions like this are what make me love cube so much.









 

Laz

Developer
So, I have made Cycling lands available to players in the ULD for a while now, and never really got much of a bite (excepting when player try to do silly things with Life from the Loam. For the past couple of cube sessions, I have been experimenting with playing them in mid-rangey decks and boy have they impressed me! A nice Forgotten Cave to help a red splash, that I can cycle away if I already have red available. Finding an opening for a tapped Barren Moor on turn one is fine, as normally discard is just as good slightly later, and being a redraw in top-deck mode is sweet.

Aside: I am testing swapping in Forsake the Worldly and Dissenter's Deliverance. Has anyone else tried this, do they actually get maindecked?
 
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