Card/Deck Balance: Reasonably Efficient Non-Etb Creatures?

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Continuing with some ideas for this that pop into my head, a card that I currently run:

I know it's hiraliously not good against my aforementioned repeal, but it being an instant goes a long way in taking a french vanilla creature and giving it a lot of utility. Flash in general is good in this regard, because you can wait for an opening to get at least one use.

Edit: Some of the cool things it can do
  • Be "attacking creature" removal
  • Be copied
  • Trigger prowess, notably Monastery Mentor
  • Be flashed back or recurred in general, ie. Advent -> E Wit -> Advent.
 
Dom Harvey

Dom Harvey

Contributor
This is a really important thread IMO. ETB spam is a problem that's only getting worse over time and is hard to avoid given how good (and interesting) some of the offenders are. I might have to dial back support for Blink as a deck in my next update because it really doesn't need the help. It also encourages an arms race: if point removal is very strong, and the strongest creatures are resistant to removal because they leave something behind, a 'normal' creature has to be that much stronger to justify playing. I like playing with all the shiny new toys, but I also like having an environment where you can take a turn off to set up and one stumble isn't immediately lethal.

RBM's list (Kalitas/Archangel of Thune/Gitrog) is a great start, and I love Tireless Tracker. I'd add Boros Reckoner (which does a ton of cool stuff and is excellent at simplifying boards), Ojutai Exemplars, Tombstalker, both Olivias, Grenzo (if it counts), Falkenrath Aristocrat


ETA: I remember when I started playing in 2005 (!) and Kokusho was the scariest card to play against and universally agreed to be amazing
 
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Dom Harvey said:
This is a really important thread IMO. ETB spam is a problem that's only getting worse over time and is hard to avoid given how good (and interesting) some of the offenders are.
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Definitely agree with this. It's a good axis to sit back and reflect upon for a lot of environments. I literally made a deck back in RTR-THR blcok standard that abused the concept of "Multiple bodies for one body" to overwhelm the spot removal of decks like Mono-black and Esper. It was something like:
Creatures (22)
4 sylvan caryatid
4 loxodon smiter
4 advent of the wurm
3 Scion of Vitu-Ghazi
3 armada wurm
2 ephara, god of the polis
2 prophet of kruphix

Planeswalkers (2)
2 Kiora, the crashing wave

Spells (12)
4 Detention Sphere
3 Sphinx's Revelation
2 Dissolve
3 Selesnya Charm

Lands (24)
4 hallowed Fountain
4 Temple Garden
2 Breeding pool
2 Temple of Enlightenment
3 Temple of Mystery
2 Temple of Plenty
3 Forest
2 Island
2 Plains

You get the idea. The list itself is lost to time, but this is a pretty good approximation. There might have been some Brimaz, King of Oreskos and elvish mystics somewhere in there too. The idea was to both promote lots of early pressure in efficient creatures and back it up with 2 and 3-for-1's on big ETB beatsticks, cemented by a card advantage engine in Rev, Kiora, and Ephara (who is wicked good with instant speed creatures btw). Landing stuff like Armada Wurm and the Scion of Vitu-Ghazi in the mid game soon strained and then snapped the Downfalls, D-Spheres, and so on of the permission decks. Secured plenty of FNM top-4's with this deck, and the lesson plays out just as Dom talks about for cube. Even moreso in cube environs with highly varied and fought-over-in-draft removal, and a lower and even more punishing curve.....

Interesting that the deck also exemplifies that efficient non-etb threats backed up with enough Card Advantage insurance can hold their own. Probably a lesson somewhere here too...

A moment to collect our thoughts on the Scion. ETB's that only work when casting them from your hand are a nifty way to limit the effect. Scion is the sort of ETB that I'm happier stomaching than, say, Cloudgoat Ranger + Flickerwisp

Some coolio cards that I'm peeking at/run already and like:
->
->

 
Grillo_Parlante

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Thats really clever: has incidental tribal synergy too.

Returning briefly to the bounce discussion:



Seems nicely balanced between the potential second bounce, and the {U}{U}
 
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I'm not sure that's as balanced by {U}{U} as you hope. I see a mid game play of tapping out for midrange threat -> getting teched and having the threat bounced, along with some random dork from earlier. And then if you try to play around it game 2 they have a free {1} mana tax. And one can bounce ones own stuff too, which plays right into reusing ETB's (E Wit amirite).

Interesting card I like:

Its reusable, but always allows at least one use out of a duder. Seems a little better in the early game slowing down the board growth of Villain, but I can't be sure having not played it myself yet. This card also be used on your own guys like withdraw, ie. mulldrifter, but you aren't also getting a bounce on their dude.
 
yan

yan

they need to go back to making spells. i like the ones with tokens. etb is annoying. descend upon sinful, phyrexian rebirth, planar outburst, crush of tentacles, bonehoard. also more artifacts
 
Grillo_Parlante

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
sigh said:
I'm not sure that's as balanced by {U}{U} as you hope. I see a mid game play of tapping out for midrange threat -> getting teched and having the threat bounced, along with some random dork from earlier. And then if you try to play around it game 2 they have a free {1} mana tax. And one can bounce ones own stuff too, which plays right into reusing ETB's (E Wit amirite).

Interesting card I like:

Its reusable, but always allows at least one use out of a duder. Seems a little better in the early game slowing down the board growth of Villain, but I can't be sure having not played it myself yet. This card also be used on your own guys like withdraw, ie. mulldrifter, but you aren't also getting a bounce on their dude.
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Maybe I've been unfairly dismissive of mark. It just feels like a card I want to have a bunch of those ravinca era ETB auras around to really enjoy.
 
FlowerSunRain

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
Mark of Eviction has a very weird effect on the development of a game in that it taxes both players, but for both players the 'payment' is optional. It's an interesting card and I like it a great deal. In a cube with fewer ETB creatures it is probably better because no one wants to put this on a Thragtusk or anything like that. Also, obviously fun with enchantress effects for incremental value.
 
whydirt

whydirt

Could part of the issue be that UG already has the most quality flash creatures, making the land for that guild a bit redundant? Being able to flash stuff in as non-Simic G/X or U/X is probably more impressive.
 
genericco

genericco

Yeva doesn't seem especially useful, I was running her for a while and found it too hard to realize value from her ability, making her mostly just a flash 4/4 for {2}{G}{G}. Briarhorn is a high-power alternative, and stuff like Wolfir Avenger might be worth looking into if you like green flash.

***

I would frame the issue of ETB power creep as competing design goals. On the one hand, give people what they want, creatures worth tapping out for, creatures you can build around and not have timely removal completely screw you over. On the other, variety and depth.

Cards have to be really pushed to compete with the strongest ETB creatures I'm running, like Pia and Kiran Nalaar, Skinrender and Sower of Temptation. How are Krenko, Mob Boss or Phyrexian Scuta supposed to compete? And yet I'm not sure how to proceed with a step-down in power, and I'm not sure that's a step I want to take, and I'm pretty convinced that's something my drafters on the whole would NOT want.

I can't be alone in this, being at a level where 4+ cmc creatures have to have an immediate impact, or at least provide something before your opponent's untap to be worth playing. It's a bit of a dilemma, too much of this and the matches become really reductive.
 
Grillo_Parlante

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I'm not really sure how much of it is a step down in power as it is balancing out densities.

Phyrexian scuta, for example, is just operating at a lower raw power level, and even it would run into trouble in a low power framework if the removal and ETB threats out paced it. I think it would be quite bad in the penny cube; even though that cube's cards are less "powerful," they are still operating more-or-less along the same "power axis" of a "powered" cube, and scuta is just too slow and inefficient by that metric.

Krenko is probably fine in most cubes, but I think you would have to, again, balance the density of competing ETB creatures in order to avoid falling behind in the tempo game. Krenko does provide a spell effect, its just at a delayed rate, and that cards issue is more one of being a bit too slow compared with the rest of an ETB heavy format.
 
Diakonov

Diakonov

Aston said:
I've had Alchemist's Refuge in ULD forever. I've never seen it activated and I'm not sure I've ever even seen it picked.
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I've swapped it out for Novijen, Heart of Progress, which has actually seen a bit of play.

genericco said:
Cards have to be really pushed to compete with the strongest ETB creatures I'm running, like Pia and Kiran Nalaar, Skinrender and Sower of Temptation. How are Krenko, Mob Boss or Phyrexian Scuta supposed to compete? And yet I'm not sure how to proceed with a step-down in power, and I'm not sure that's a step I want to take, and I'm pretty convinced that's something my drafters on the whole would NOT want.
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That's definitely a tough nut to crack without taking a step down in power. You could start is by removing the swingiest, generically most powerful cards like Sower of Temptation, but leaving in cards like Pia and Kiran. Both are strong but Sower has a lot less depth to it. Maybe downgrade Skinrender to Nekrataal.

I have to agree with Grillo that Scuta is just very underpowered as a card. Four mana for a 5/5 has become such a standard for midrange that even uncommons like Imperiosaur outclass Scuta (edit: this is debatable, but you get my drift), especially if you take bounce into account. I think your cube would need to be radically weaker for Scuta to compete.

Looking at your cube overall, though, it seems like you've managed to balance most of the ETB nonsense.
 
sigh

sigh

I bring up Yeva as its one of the ways to give (some of) your creatures flash. And people's response to it historically is perfect: I just think giving your stuff flash isn't powerful enough, enough of the time, to warrant it. The only flash-granter I'd run would be
 
Grillo_Parlante

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Ug flash has just never really felt like a deck tbh. Green only really has a few mediocre flash threats outside of mystic snake. Depending on a few enablers is risky buisness, and without them higher cc green faties conflict with the keep mana open for instants gameplan. Generally thats a recipe for a weak deck.
 
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