General Battlecruiser/dragon cube theory

[Spiderdoofus]

What makes battlecruiser or dragon limited formats work?

I'm reading some great older Riptide threads, and some discussion in other places, but I can't find a good discussion of how to make battlecruiser formats fun. Let's discuss general principles like make removal expensive, be careful with colorless ramp 2cmc or less, and so forth. How do we craft an experience of throwing haymakers at each other that feels good.

One thing I'm thinking is that having cards that are valuable at different points in the game would be good. So mechanics like Kicker, Cycling, Adventure, Leveling; cards that can be played early or late.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Rise of the Eldrazi is a case study for this question. It's one of the best limited formats I've ever played, radically different from any other set, and WotC perfected the battlecruiser format there. Here's some of the principles that made it work.

• Ramp in many colors (thanks to the Eldrazi Spawn)
• Mana sinks! (level up)
• Defender subtheme (walls walls walls)
• Skewed stats

Now, that last one needs some explanation, probably. I came up with a simple, abstract number to express the nature of a limited format. Let's call it the P/T Ratio, or PTR for short. You calculate the number by looking at the number of commons and uncommons with cmc 4 or lower that have a power that's greater than their toughness, and divide that by the number of commons and uncommons with cmc 4 or lower that have a power that's smallerthan their toughness. Let's look at a few sets, shall we, starting with our subject here.

Rise of the Eldrazi has a PTR of 0.36 (8:22).
Ikoria has a PTR of 0.41 (13:32)
Throne of Eldraine has a PTR of 0.90 (26:29)
Kaladesh has a PTR of 0.97 (31:32)
Zendikar (the original) has a PTR of 0.79 (15:19) (much of its aggressiveness was caused by the landfall mechanic)
M20 has a PTR of 1.05 (29:28)

Of course PTR is a really simplified representation, but it gives us an indication of how the early turns of a game will play out on average. Like Rise before it, Ikoria is a format where Wizards wants you to build up to these giant monsters, often mutated more than once, and both sets happen to have a very low PTR!

One other thing both of those sets have in common?

• Going vertical

Rise had the aura subtheme, Ikoria has the mutate mechanic. Both let you upgrade early drops during the game to compete, to an extent, with the haymakers that enter the battlefield during the late game.

One other tip I can give you, that has absolutely nothing to do with Rise of the Eldrazi, is this.

• Slow mana fixing

Cubes tend to, rightfully I believe, have way more mana fixing than retail limited formats. Casting your spells is important, and all those lands make sure you aren't crippled by a 9/8 split and subsequent color screws as much as in retail drafts. Depending on how much support you want to give to 5 color good stuff, I'ld recommend dedicating up to 12% of your cube slots to mana fixing. Whatlands you choose, however, will have a profound impact on the speed of your format. Running fetches, shocks, and painlands means people will take damage, fixing their mana, and all of those cards etb untapped. This kind of fixing benefits aggressive strategies. Running scrylands, bouncelands, and gainlands, on the other hand, means (multicolor) aggressive decks will be at a disadvantage, for obvious reasons.

Okay, one more then...

• Check your removal suite

This comes down to making sure your removal spells are not aggro friendly. Just to name a few...

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[TekLazar]

(Disclaimer: I tend to define beef as something usually at a 6+ cost)
Absolutely agree with all of that, my only addition would be that the selection of your beef is vastly important to how you want your format to feel.
I love Rise of Eldrazi but if there's one negative that can be given to it, games can swing too quickly when the beef drops on the table.

Not even discussing Emrakul, Kozilek, and Ulamog. Even just a Ulamog's Crusher, his big brother Pathrazer of Ulamog, and his cousin Hand of Emrakul are enough to end games (mostly because Annihilator is an incredibly strong mechanic). But the feeling that set was trying to promote was world ending beef, and while slow and fun, there aren't a lot of decisions being made on your side of the field (heck, Crusher is on autopilot). Outside of cheat for Powered lists, and Crusher in Pauper, the old Eldrazi rarely stick in anyone's cube anymore. (The Colored and Artifact beef in RoE has some great hits though)

That's partially due to the fact that powered formats are so much faster nowadays, but I also think that even if you lower your removal level, there is a lot more interesting and fun beef that you can be playing.


is probably my favorite and helps make interesting decisions while still having a strong clock
is Annihilator-lite
not only has reanimator support, but it also is a great blocker and makes great blockers, shoutout to Scion of Darkness and Titanoth Rex as well
is somewhat autopilot, but it creates a fun decision of when to cast it
my cube is small and tight, so I don't have many suggestions, but these are the ones I am most confident in

"But but... I still love world ending beef!"
I hear you cry. And I agree with you, world ending beef is still fun, I personally think that the better way to accomplish this is not, up the mana cost to 15, where only one person will sometimes maybe get to cast it, but make the color triple to five and the fixing mediocre.




Keeping your mana costs low will help make games less "turn 6, land, go" but being multicolored will still make the beef of value to the Timmy.

 

[Spiderdoofus]

My friends, this is good stuff. Thanks for the thoughtful responses.

Now, that last one needs some explanation, probably. I came up with a simple, abstract number to express the nature of a limited format. Let's call it the P/T Ratio, or PTR for short. You calculate the number by looking at the number of commons and uncommons with cmc 4 or lower that have a power that's greater than their toughness, and divide that by the number of commons and uncommons with cmc 4 or lower that have a power that's smallerthan their toughness. Let's look at a few sets, shall we, starting with our subject here.

Any reason to not divide the sum of the power by the sum of the toughness across all cards? I like this method because it's easy to get the numbers from Cube Cobra. For example, the MODO Vintage cube has a ratio of 0.95 using my method, while this ROE cube has a ratio of 0.79. I like the PTR as a way of gauging the speed of a limited format. Looking at 4cmc or less, the ratios are 0.78 to 0.92.

Going vertical

How much is this an essential feature in your opinion?

One other tip I can give you, that has absolutely nothing to do with Rise of the Eldrazi, is this.

• Slow mana fixing

Cubes tend to, rightfully I believe, have way more mana fixing than retail limited formats. Casting your spells is important, and all those lands make sure you aren't crippled by a 9/8 split and subsequent color screws as much as in retail drafts. Depending on how much support you want to give to 5 color good stuff, I'ld recommend dedicating up to 12% of your cube slots to mana fixing. Whatlands you choose, however, will have a profound impact on the speed of your format. Running fetches, shocks, and painlands means people will take damage, fixing their mana, and all of those cards etb untapped. This kind of fixing benefits aggressive strategies. Running scrylands, bouncelands, and gainlands, on the other hand, means (multicolor) aggressive decks will be at a disadvantage, for obvious reasons.

I think this is a good idea. Plus, these lands also tend to help mitigate flood/screw at the expense of speed. Since we're aiming for a slower format, I think that's a good trade to make.

(Disclaimer: I tend to define beef as something usually at a 6+ cost)
Absolutely agree with all of that, my only addition would be that the selection of your beef is vastly important to how you want your format to feel.
I love Rise of Eldrazi but if there's one negative that can be given to it, games can swing too quickly when the beef drops on the table.

Keeping your mana costs low will help make games less "turn 6, land, go" but being multicolored will still make the beef of value to the Timmy.

Love the suggestions! I agree with you about curve too. I think there needs to be stuff for people to do early one. Maybe build-your-own-beef with auras/bestow/mutate, or cantrips and ramp.

 

[japahn]

I think the best approach is working backwards.

First choose what kind of "dragons" you want to run. Maybe 10 or 20 cards. Then, design an environment around them where they are good, but not unbeatable.

Onder already present some good ideas about how, but it will be mostly about making aggro slow, avoiding cheap snowbally cards, and removal that provides too much of a tempo advantage against your "dragons".

 

[Brad]

@ the question about PTR considering all cards, it's likely because the rares in the sets make up such a small percentage of a retail format. For a cube, I'd do the whole thing.

Another thing is to include removal that is effective against your non dragons like Smother and Jaya's Greeting. You definitely want removal, but make the legitimate kill spells cost, I don't know, maybe 4-5 cmc?

I think you're spot on with Kicker, etc.

I'd look up Jason's articles and thread on Eldrazi Domain (a better poster would just link them) as it's the only documented cube I know of that focuses on high cmc plays.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Any reason to not divide the sum of the power by the sum of the toughness across all cards? I like this method because it's easy to get the numbers from Cube Cobra. For example, the MODO Vintage cube has a ratio of 0.95 using my method, while this ROE cube has a ratio of 0.79. I like the PTR as a way of gauging the speed of a limited format. Looking at 4cmc or less, the ratios are 0.78 to 0.92.

Well, let's look at two hypothetical sets with five creatures at cmc < 5 each.

• Set 1: one 0/6, two 2/2's, and two 2/1's.
• Set 2: one 2/4, one 2/3, two 1/2's and a 2/1.

Now, simply looking at the numbers, I would call set 1 an aggressive set. There is one big blocker, but it can't actually kill anything that attacks, and all of the other creatures trade with each other. Set two, on the other hand, is very much a defensive set. There is exactly one creature whose stats scream that it wants to attack, and it trades with or loses to all of the other cards. If we look at the numbers, set 1 has a PTR of a whopping 2 (2:1), while the TPTR (total power/toughness ratio) is 0.67 (8:12). The PTR of set 2 is a measly 0.25 (1:4), but the TPTR is, again, 0.67 (8:12). I think this example perfectly illustrates the problem with dividing the sum of the power by the sum of the toughness across all cards. I mean, PTR isn't perfect either, because it fails to detect that original Zendikar was a super aggressive set. We can tweak that, however, by accounting for the fact that Hedron Scrabbler, Plated Geopede

 

[Spiderdoofus]

Then, design an environment around them where they are good, but not unbeatable.

Exactly, I'd like to dig into this more though and figure out how best to do that. I think the discussion so far about limiting cheap, powerful removal is right on.

@ the question about PTR considering all cards, it's likely because the rares in the sets make up such a small percentage of a retail format. For a cube, I'd do the whole thing.

Another thing is to include removal that is effective against your non dragons like Smother and Jaya's Greeting. You definitely want removal, but make the legitimate kill spells cost, I don't know, maybe 4-5 cmc?

I think you're spot on with Kicker, etc.

I'd look up Jason's articles and thread on Eldrazi Domain (a better poster would just link them) as it's the only documented cube I know of that focuses on high cmc plays.

Yeah, actually that article inspired the thread. There's discussion of specific Battlecruiser cubes, but not a lot of discussion about general principles of designing these formats. I think the point of "battlecruiser" is to break some basic assumptions of "good cube design" like supporting aggro. I think the emphasis of supporting aggro in cube grew out of people's dislike of formats that had too high of an average CMC. I think there's a way to have a format where Cruel Ultimatum, for example, is a good card, you can expect to be able to cast 7-drops, but still also feels interactive, dynamic, and fun.

Well, let's look at two hypothetical sets with five creatures at cmc < 5 each.

• Set 1: one 0/6, two 2/2's, and two 2/1's.
• Set 2: one 2/4, one 2/3, two 1/2's and a 2/1.

Now, simply looking at the numbers, I would call set 1 an aggressive set. There is one big blocker, but it can't actually kill anything that attacks, and all of the other creatures trade with each other. Set two, on the other hand, is very much a defensive set. There is exactly one creature whose stats scream that it wants to attack, and it trades with or loses to all of the other cards. If we look at the numbers, set 1 has a PTR of a whopping 2 (2:1), while the TPTR (total power/toughness ratio) is 0.67 (8:12). The PTR of set 2 is a measly 0.25 (1:4), but the TPTR is, again, 0.67 (8:12). I think this example perfectly illustrates the problem with dividing the sum of the power by the sum of the toughness across all cards.

This is interesting. It's occurring to me that we probably want to weight the calculations in some way by CMC. Don't want to get too off-topic, but developing a way to quantify the speed of limited formats seems like an interesting topic for another thread.

 

[japahn]

Exactly, I'd like to dig into this more though and figure out how best to do that. I think the discussion so far about limiting cheap, powerful removal is right on.

Could you post some examples of the power level of dragons you want to run? It would really help to give more solid suggestions. To give extreme examples, a cube where good is Ulamog's Crusher runs different cards than a cube where good is Craterhoof Behemoth.

Also, do you want all player to have to play larger creatures or let aggro, tempo, and control exist, but balanced so that they don't invalidate midrange?

 

[Spiderdoofus]

Could you post some examples of the power level of dragons you want to run? It would really help to give more solid suggestions. To give extreme examples, a cube where good is Ulamog's Crusher runs different cards than a cube where good is Craterhoof Behemoth.

I think some fun, powerful, but not broken dragons would be Lyra Dawnbringer, Draining Whelk, Elder Deep-Fiend, Vilis, Broker of Blood, Flameblast Dragon, Ilharg, the Raze-Boar, Kogla, the Titan Ape, Ghalta, Primal Hunger, Golos, Tireless Pilgrim, Cruel Ultimatum, Dragonlord Atarka, and maybe Aether Searcher.

These cards are all pretty strong, but not like Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger, Wurmcoil Engine, or Griselbrand. I think Ulamog's Crusher is a good example of a card on the edge.

I am thinking I would probably limit stuff like Sneak Attack or reanimator. Might include symmetrical cheat effects like Show and Tell, but probably not because they'd be bad.

Also, do you want all player to have to play larger creatures or let aggro, tempo, and control exist, but balanced so that they don't invalidate midrange?

Not sure yet. I think the cube won't be fun if aggro is too good, but then if it's bad, why include it at all? Balancing that will be hard, but on the other hand, with no aggro, it's going to be hard to find stuff for white to do. (BTW, any ideas for something fun for white to do?)

I guess I learn towards supporting all strategies, but maybe weaker versions than in many cubes. So like, all sweepers are 6cmc, no bounce cheaper than 3cmc as a spell or 4cmc on a body, aggro curve starts at 2cmc.

 

[Brad]

Reading your list of threats, I want to ask what you're after here.

Lyra will blow out any slowed down aggro deck if it gets to a combat phase.
Atarka totally ruins opposing boards when it hits.
Ilharg will similarly end many games where it gets to attack once.
Whelk, Deep-Fiend, and Golos will get you some alright advantage.
Flameblast Dragon might hit someone's face hard or go +1 when it swings, but seems tiers below the rest.

You've made a list saying they're not on the Ulamog tier, but half of your list really is, in my eyes. Also, your expensive threats start at five mana, which doesn't feel like particularly much investment. Your list looks like a bunch of 5+ mana cards that are barely not the best possible cards in those slots.

I'm not trying to be overly critical, but I'm genuinely curious about what the goal here is and what the power level is. To have Flameblast in the list and say Crusher is on the edge while being compared to massive ETB effects like Atarka feels like the power level is all over the place.

I have more constructive thoughts, but I'd like to hear about this first. Something else you could maybe do for us is lay out what you imagine the ten guilds to be? That would give us some good direction to help out.

 

[Spiderdoofus]

Reading your list of threats, I want to ask what you're after here.

Lyra will blow out any slowed down aggro deck if it gets to a combat phase.
Atarka totally ruins opposing boards when it hits.
Ilharg will similarly end many games where it gets to attack once.
Whelk, Deep-Fiend, and Golos will get you some alright advantage.
Flameblast Dragon might hit someone's face hard or go +1 when it swings, but seems tiers below the rest.

You've made a list saying they're not on the Ulamog tier, but half of your list really is, in my eyes. Also, your expensive threats start at five mana, which doesn't feel like particularly much investment. Your list looks like a bunch of 5+ mana cards that are barely not the best possible cards in those slots.

I'm not trying to be overly critical, but I'm genuinely curious about what the goal here is and what the power level is. To have Flameblast in the list and say Crusher is on the edge while being compared to massive ETB effects like Atarka feels like the power level is all over the place.

I have more constructive thoughts, but I'd like to hear about this first. Something else you could maybe do for us is lay out what you imagine the ten guilds to be? That would give us some good direction to help out.

That list of cards exemplifies "exciting bombs" to me. Ideally, the power level and design of the cube would be such that cards like these would be p1p1's, that you'd be stoked to have in your pool. But I'm not set on any; japahn just asked for a list.

I don't want you to be tripped up by this list specifically. There is a critical tone in your post -- which is good! I want to hear your opinions, especially critical ones! -- so I think it's fine if you would imagine a lower power level. Tell me about the design of your imagination cube, or use japahn's list of bombs. Or, just think about what you think is the average power level of those cards I listed and imagine I'm cutting the ones too far above or below that. Would love to hear the other thoughts you have.

I'm not a fan of using 10 guild archetypes as a design skeleton. I'd rather see archetypes emerge from the monocolor sections, and I think deciding on archetypes too early is stifling. It's definitely a viable way to go, I just don't like it. The big problem I have right now is figuring out what white is going to do as a color. I'm thinking it should be something about investing and building stuff up, so maybe leaning on token making.

Personally, my goal for this cube is to be the ultimate Timmy/Tammy experience. Not just playing big creatures, but creating huge swings in the game. Bogardan Hellkite blowing up a bunch of stuff is cool; I want that to happen. I am thinking more about the experience I want to craft rather than the power level at this point. I know I want the format to have an uneven power level though. There needs to be "bombs".

 

[japahn]

I think it's doable at that power level. I understand you want to make gameplay about "here's a bomb, deal with it!" "Here is a bigger bomb!" "Here's a bomb that wipes them both away!" I suggest:
- Allocating a large amount of slots to bombs, of course, so that they aren't the scarce resource during the draft.
- Good fixing in all colors would help since I imagine you'll want lots of multicolor ones.

One issue with high-CMC environment is that they become a lot about "who gets to 5-6 mana sooner and starts doing broken things" and... I just disparaged it in the other thread, but if you toy with hypergeometric calculations you'll see high CMCs is where you can't make the percentages consistent without running like 23 lands / 40 cards. To offset that, I suggest:

Focus your cheap cards on smoothing in all colors. Draw effects, scry, impulses, anything that lets you sculpt a land base and a hand.


Run very limited amounts of cheap threats, even if you do want to have aggro show up make it slower and scaling. Scaling is important, so that aggro vs midrange is not just a game about getting midrange to 0 life becomes running out of steam. That's what ROE used Level Up for.



Run removal that can be repurposed if the opponent doesn't have the small of the big creatures it hits.


An interesting design space that ROE used were the Eldrazi Spawn tokens. They were "one-shot mana" and many of the interesting decision in the format were when to spend them, since you use them to spike your mana, but only once. Including them in this cube seems like a good idea too, and other temporary mana stuff like:



Do not build green based on ramp, or it will be the best color by far. Artifact based ramp is fairer, but still might be too good. I'd focus on games where decks spend the first 5 turns smoothing and preparing, then start dumping threats on the board.

 

[Spiderdoofus]

Yeah, all great ideas.

I think I'm going to have almost all ramp be 3cmc or more, unless it's limited use, like Pentad Prism or Sphere of the Suns, which will be in artifacts. I'll probably give green some good ramp spells, like Cultivate, which I expect to be very strong, maybe p1p1 level, but no 1-cmc mana creatures.

I like the idea of having scaling creatures in the low cmc slots. Maybe doing it around +1/+1 counters is a good way. There's lots of counters synergy cards, and could be a theme that's extended across the whole cube.

 

[Brad]

Well, I'm really unsure of what the goal is here, but I'm pretty sure you need this


I'll also note that the Eldrazi Domain cube was based off some very high CMC threats, but not a load of them. Having the bombs be colorless is pretty nice for universal access, but you may want to consider a format where your expectation would be that a few decks each draft are slamming massive fatties.

 

[Spiderdoofus]

Yeah, what percentage of the cube should be big creatures do you think?

 

[japahn]

Maybe like 33% 5+ mana creatures? That will give players ~8 per deck, assuming the same sideboarding ratio for big creatures and other cards. If you want to be more extreme, try starting at 50%.

 

[Brad]

Entirely depends on your design goals. I really liked how ED did it with just a bit more than average, I think. Gave it a bomby feeling without going overboard. If you want haymakers back and forth, maybe japahn's numbers are right. It's hard to say. I've personally felt very restricted in formats where I get to cast fewer spells per turn.

 

[Spiderdoofus]

Well, I'm really unsure of what the goal is here, but I'm pretty sure you need this

Oh man, it would be sweet to have a bunch of red rituals and . The rituals would probably be decent anyway just to ramp into big stuff, especially fatties that etbed to offset the card disadvantage. Definitely doing this.

Maybe like 33% 5+ mana creatures? That will give players ~8 per deck, assuming the same sideboarding ratio for big creatures and other cards. If you want to be more extreme, try starting at 50%.

Ok, that's about where I got eyeballing it. Fat percentages are white: 19%, blue: 31%, black: 31%, red: 26%, green: 33%

 

[Brad]

Where are these percents from? Show list!

 

[shamizy]

I think a good place to pick up ideas for uncommon options would be something like browsing popular EDH decks for Timmy commanders on EDHREC. A lot of good stuff in there to work off especially since you'd be referencing a format that lends itself to a more battlecruiser-y playstyle in the first place.

 

[Spiderdoofus]

Where are these percents from? Show list!

So I sketch out a skeleton of what I want the curves to look like for each color, and the percentage creatures. Then I fill the slots and sort of tweak from there. Right now, the cube is in a big spreadsheet with a page for the skeleton, a page for the current contents, and a page for cards that go with a certain mechanic (like kicker or dragon tribal). I'll definitely share the list when I'm done, which should be soon.

I think a good place to pick up ideas for uncommon options would be something like browsing popular EDH decks for Timmy commanders on EDHREC. A lot of good stuff in there to work off especially since you'd be referencing a format that lends itself to a more battlecruiser-y playstyle in the first place.

I love going to EDHREC for ideas. Been digging in there for dragon tribal. Any good ideas for popular Timmy commanders?

 

[shamizy]

Off the top of my head I think these are good starting points commander-wise:

 

[Onderzeeboot]

So I sketch out a skeleton of what I want the curves to look like for each color, and the percentage creatures. Then I fill the slots and sort of tweak from there. Right now, the cube is in a big spreadsheet with a page for the skeleton, a page for the current contents, and a page for cards that go with a certain mechanic (like kicker or dragon tribal). I'll definitely share the list when I'm done, which should be soon.




I love going to EDHREC for ideas. Been digging in there for dragon tribal. Any good ideas for popular Timmy commanders?

Edit: removed doubles.

 

[Spiderdoofus]

Very much a work in progress, but I have a first draft up on Cube Cobra. My next task is going to be identifying the cards that are too weak, and cutting those. After that, I will balance the counts per color. In doing that, I'll look to buff up some things I want in there but don't seem to be present as I click through test drafts.