Blacksmithy's Cube

[blacksmithy]

Cubetutor: http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/15130
Size: 450
Playgroup: Usually about 6 drafters, mostly inexperienced (myself included)
Restrictions:
-Modern/postmodern frame with 1 exception per color (this is just aesthetic)
-Singleton (also aesthetic plz don't kill me)
-Unpowered obvy (Conspiracies kinda function like power tho)
Weird junk:
-Command Tower is played as an unconditional rainbow land.
-The cube has a sideboard of 15 GRBS cards, and when you draft Lore Seeker you get to choose between a regular cube pack and the GRBS sideboard as your Lore Seeker pack

So this is my first post, and also my cube thread! I've been lurking here for a bit, and I really like the ideas floating around. I was on MTGS for a while but found unpowered cubes just didn't really get noticed or talked about there, which is a bummer because I don't want to buy OR proxy power.

Anyways, I am looking forward to getting my list ripped apart here and getting new ideas for stuff! I'll post queries and such in later posts. Thanks in advance, looking forward to getting to know y'all.

 

[blacksmithy]

First query: I'm not sure if it's a function of the cube list or drafter preference, but midrange seems to be the most popular archetype. However, usually combo or aggro or tempo wins the most. Does anyone have ideas for gently encouraging more non-midrange decks?

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Thats probably a result of drafter preference. You have a number of the value green midrange cards that tend to suck those players in: eternal witness, courser of kruphix, polukranos, world eater, kalonian hydra, thragtusk, wolfir silverheart. It looks like his majesty has set up court in your green section.

Do you have any examples of decks they draft? I talk about a similar problem here, albeit aimed at a much lower power format. The issue I found ultimately was:

In the post, he was discussing some of the common errors in pauper, and number three on his list was “Over valuing Midrange Decks.” The key excerpt, translated below, reads:

“[this is] A common error in almost every format, because Midrange cards appear very strong, given that they often represent the best cards in every color and seem able to handle any situation.”

I think every cube designer has, at one time or another, faced the “Junk Problem” aka the “Good Stuff Problem” aka the “my drafters only want to draft similar looking and playing midrange decks how do I stop this” problem, aka the “my format is ruined because aggro is hardly every drafted and what do I do now” problem. The traditional way of balancing out Magic archetypes is to broadly create “Roshambo” or “Rock, paper, scissors” categories for “aggro”, “midrange”, and “control.” Aggro beats control, control beats midrange, and midrange beats aggro. Unfortunately, even if you do a very nice job designing for control and aggro, if your players are biased towards drafting appealing looking midrange cards, your cube vision can never truly come to fruition, and the entire format is knocked off balance.

 

[japahn]

Is this a commander cube? Doesn't look like one, but it has Commander Tower.

 

[Laz]

Ok, did a few quick drafts and gave the list a look-over.

Firstly, your top-end power level is bonkers insane. Sol Ring, a full 11 Conspiracies, Jitte. That is before we get to Wurmcoil, Skullclamp, Coalition Relic and Lore Seeker (In conspiracy, it was never correct to pass this, yet in this cube it can be because the power disparity is so high. If the pack contains Lore Seeker AND one of the other cards listed here, it is probably worth trading a first pick AND a 9th pick for an 8th pick, since the odds of the first pick being equivalent in power is pretty low).
There are also coloured bombs, but the colourless ones are worth drawing attention to, since they are a very easy first pick (and almost certainly incorrect to pass).

In the only draft I actually built the deck for, I struggled to get the mana together for a 2-colour aggro deck, and given that I prioritise fixing far higher than many drafters, I suspect this is probably going to be an issue. Your density of fixing is low (even assuming Command Tower does something) at 35/410. I run that many fixing lands at 264 cards, and Grillo still complains (complained?).

You also have a pretty high density of enchantment/artifact destruction (including weaker alternatives like Smelt, Naturalize, Fate Forgotten (which I will admit, I had to look up)). The density of 'must destroy' targets is pretty low, which makes a lot of these feel like wasted slots. If you were thinking of those cards as dedicated sideboard cards, they I suppose you have succeeded in that goal, because there are so many that the on-colour drafters will see a few in the dregs of each pack.

I suspect a lot of the reason why you find aggro floundering is because you have a lot of cards which severely hamper aggressive decks closing out the game, since the top end cards gain boatloads of life (Thragtusk, Baneslayer, Wurmcoil, Sphinx of the Steel Wind) or provide an insurmountable board position advantage (Grave Titan, Elspeth, Inferno Titan, Hornet Queen). Control may be having issues because you have so a very creature-oriented format, and your count of Wrath effects is pretty low. Spot removal has to do a lot of work when the other player is getting so much value out of their creatures, and Wraths are pretty good at making up that difference.

You are clearly a fan of two-card combos in your cube, which I thought I would at least note. Each to their own, but I find they feel a little unsatisfying, as they just undo everything interesting that has happened in the game thus far. There is not a lot of manoeuvring involved in Channel -> Emrakul or Deceiver Exarch/Pestermite/Zealous Conscripts -> Splinter Twin and to a lesser extent, Tinker -> Inkwell Leviathan, etc.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

My one aggro deck I tried to draft was lost because "cube tutor is currently being upgraded" :eek:

However, the deck I drafted was a R/W aggro deck. Fixing was weird, in the sense that i felt trapped in R/W the entire draft, so I will echo Laz there. The aggro decks seem really compartmentalized, which I don't think is healthy. Also, you have that weird high power aggro problem where most of your burst damage effects cost 4 mana, in decks that want to cap out at 3cc ideally. I ended up running 16 lands, reveillark, siege-gang commander, and inferno titan on my high end, so a much higher average CC than I would have liked. With three o-ring effects, I'm guessing the deck would have played more like a hybrid aggro-midrange deck, going for aggressive starts (that get shut down) before grinding out the midgame, than closing with burn in the late.

More importantly, here was my first pack





Since I was forcing aggro I went with a mother of runes, but wow, holy midrange. Very few casual players I know would be able to avoid the allure of a midrange draft with packs like that. The only "aggro" cards are stuff like bolt, mother, and an effective savannah lions. Casual guys are going to be drawn to the more powerful picks.

I'm also a little surprised that you say your aggro decks do well. There are lots of great good stuff options in the cube.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

A few notes:



These cards should never ever disappoint, except maybe the Heelcutter in a non-aggressive deck, so I don't get why these are listed as bottom end, when more suspect cards (in my mind) like Jotun Grunt, Guttersnipe and the various narrow Naturalize effects are not marked as such.

-----

The average mana cost for the mono-colored sections is listed as: 3.364, 3.127, 2.927, 3.073, and 3.036. I find these numbers very atypical.

White, usually an aggressive color, has the highest average casting cost (by a fair margin)? It might be that you have the X-spells at X=5 in your charts, but still. Maybe you could cut some top-end cards to make room for a little bit more support lower on the curve. Captain of the Watch, for example, looks a bit suspect since you already run the vastly superior Cloudgoat Ranger and Elspeth, Sun's Champion.

Green, on the other hand, has plenty of ramp cards, but the second-lowest cmc! Weird?

-----

The amount and the quality of your mana fixing fluctuates wildly across guilds. For example, compare Azorius, Orzhov and Simic:



For starters I wouldn't even be comfortable with only three manafixing lands per color combination in a cube of this size, and then Simic only has two! I'ld think at least five per color combination would enable much stronger manabases, and thus less non-games that end in a color screw.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Onderzeeboot's Esper draft of Smithy's Cube on 02/06/2015 from CubeTutor.com

Sweet control deck!

 

[blacksmithy]

Okey dokey, we're off to a great start! I'll try to reply to everything one at a time. Thanks to everyone who's inspected the cube and commented!

@Grillo
I don't have any decklists saved, because I'm usually half-drunk by the time cubing events end. Some winning decks include BUG graveyard midrange, UR combo/control, WUB control, GW aggro, and WUR tempo. But every night there's at least 1 GBx Rock and 1 UWx Blink deck having middling performances. Is this a problem? I'm not sure. But do I wish my drafters would explore more of the "theme" decks like Tinker and Prowess and Reanimator.

@Japahn
It's not a commander cube, but my playgroup does commander and cube almost exclusively. So, we house-rule Command Tower to be an unconditional rainbow land, since that's pretty much what it is in the other format we play.

@Laz
Yup, the top end is pretty crazy. It's something that's always in the back of my mind, but my playgroup hasn't got tired of it yet. Were I to start seriously considering cutting "power," I'd probably look at some alternate ways to evenly distribute the nukes before taking them out. But we'll see how the players feel when we get there.
Fixing is an issue, partially caused by me not owning all the fetches (or ANY duals). I might consider breaking singleton to give each pair more fixing lands, maybe something like fetch-shock-shock-random. How many fixing lands per guild would y'all suggest?
On artifact/enchantment destruction, it's something my players asked for more of early on, and I'm still playing with different numbers to see what feels right. I can see myself taking out more of it as more versatile removal, or more fun goodies, get printed.
I wouldn't say aggro is floundering so much as it's unpopular. Only me and one other guy draft aggro decks, but when we do, we usually do quite well with them. That said, they're unappealing to the rest of the group. As for control, I won't deny my wrath count is low. Can anyone suggest more wraths to add? (Please don't say Damnation.)
And yes, I do love two-card combos. But I have seen Splinter Twin be used as a finite value engine to great effect before, which is cool. Channel is just in for the lulz—Channel/Emrakul has happened once, and so has Channel-Wildfire-Bloodbraid Elf (against me, and it was pretty cool to lose to).

@Grillo again
Can you elaborate on what you mean by "compartmentalized?"

@Onderzeebot
Jotun Grunt is a new addition the group asked for to replace Squadron Hawk. I don't expect him to be great, but he hasn't been tested much yet. Guttersnipe is a pet card of mine. And I realize there's no way for anyone on this site to know this, but any straight-up Naturalize effect in my cube is automatically marked for consideration when I'm cutting cards, because they boring yo!
I agree, my average converted mana costs are weird! And I have no idea how they turned out that way. I promise most of the aggro decks have white or red in them (except when I draft UB aggro but that's just me). And yeah I tried Captain of the Watch like once and immediately cut it for... I think Karmic Guide. I need to update the Cubetutor.
I'll echo what I said about fixing above. But yeah Simic has three fixers now, even though I still don't have a damn Misty Rainforest... !!!
Also, nice deck! I love Esper decks.

Sorry for the wall of text everyone! Thanks for commenting!

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Immediate Action on Grave Titan obviously, because that card is not already powerful enough. This deck contains some filthy, filthy cards that I would not personally run in my cube, being Recurring Nightmare (which is just impossible to deal with) and Grave Titan (which hits at least twice as hard as the proverbial brick). Given that the power level of your cube is higher than the average Riptide cube, I'ld say this deck looks like a blast to play though, with some very powerful options.

Onderzeeboot's Sultai draft of Smithy's Cube on 02/06/2015 from CubeTutor.com

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

@Grillo
I don't have any decklists saved, because I'm usually half-drunk by the time cubing events end. Some winning decks include BUG graveyard midrange, UR combo/control, WUB control, GW aggro, and WUR tempo. But every night there's at least 1 GBx Rock and 1 UWx Blink deck having middling performances. Is this a problem? I'm not sure. But do I wish my drafters would explore more of the "theme" decks like Tinker and Prowess and Reanimator.

@Grillo again
Can you elaborate on what you mean by "compartmentalized?"

I was more curious about deck lists, because while it made sense to me that good stuff midrange would be overrepresented, I was kind of surprised that it wasn't just dominating. Sometimes the casual players that are drawn towards good stuff are more focused on having a good time than winning, and I was wondering if that was reflected in the quality of the decks they were drafting.

The problem you have with getting people into theme decks is probably a power band consequence. Why mess around with blink antics when you can just cast wurmcoil engine and win.


What I mean by compartmentalized is that it seems difficult to mix and match aggro strategies, largely due to the fixing issues. R/W seems like all that it does is play sligh and anthems*, but blending that with a recursive gravecrawler based aggro strategy seems difficult. With the midrange decks, its easier to pivot around, mix and match cards that go into different strategies, and generally try to be creative. The aggro decks seem segregated, due to fixing, and feel trapped in one narrow strategy in each color pair. Casual, creative players, looking to have fun, will get bored of that.

*sligh and white weenie strategies, I think are pretty hard to get people excited about, because well:

1. Sligh Aggro is not fun for casual players. I want to bring this to the forefront, because we are not going to get very far without acknowledging this basic reality. Remember our quote from Near? Does playing a bunch of 2/1 creatures for 1 mana seem exciting, powerful, or able to handle any situation? The answer is a resounding no. Unfortunately, this one style of aggro defines what many cube designers will support (usually in only 1-3 color combinations), while at the same time providing a critical mass of attractive looking midrange cards in every other single color combination in their cube. Combining this with how sligh decks are very punishing of drafting and play mistakes, and their focus on technical play rather than flashy play, we shouldn’t be surprised when many such cubes finish midrange dominated.

 

[blacksmithy]

@Onderzeebot, it sounds like you're enjoying drafting the cube, which is great! That looks pretty similar to the last successful deck I drafted—except with mo' bombs
And yeah, Recurring Nightmare and Grave Titan are nutty, especially together. No one's really "gone off" with RecSur yet though—I actually didn't get either online in more than 1 game when I was able to get them both in my deck, and the game I did the other guy had grave hate.

@Grillo, I think you're right that players who are drafting midrange are generally going for derpy durdle builds. Like I said, usually at least 1/3 of the drafted decks are midrange, and they usually have more or less 50-50 records. They're capable of big plays but are mostly just goodstuff piles.
Let's talk about RW for a bit. That is, I suppose, the classic aggro color pair. In my cube, some of the archetypes I'm trying to nudge people towards in RW are tokens (Purphoros is really popular here), prowess (Monastery Mentor and etc), and double strike with pants/anthems. So far, tokens has been a hit, but only one guy has done the prowess deck, and no one's tried a pants Boros build. However, I have seen people do Alesha.dek a couple times since her inclusion. The guys seem to really like pairing her with stuff like Grenzo and Hornet Queen, and that makes me happy.
So that brings us to aggro fixing. I asked this in an earlier post, but how much fixing is enough to make 2-3 color aggro decks appealing at the 400-450 range? Cuz guys, I love aggro, and I want to see more of it on Cube nights. Thanks again!

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Like I said, five color-fixing lands per guild (plus some 5-color lands) ought to give you a playable mana-base. If your group is a bit like mine they will bemoan the enormous amount of mana-fixing floating around at first, but don't let that deter you. Explain that at a certain point, picking up another spell simply means you will have to cut one more card from your deck, because you can't play more then about 23 nonland spells. Picking up a land however means you still have enough spells, but you get to cast those more reliably because you will color-screw less often. On color lands will always make the cut, and they will improve your deck, so they're really a blessing, even if a lot of less experienced players don't realize it.

If you support certain archetypes in certain colors, you can tweak the mana base a bit, it doesn't have to be all the same. Putting Battlefield Forge in makes sense, because it's generally an aggro color that wants or on its first turn. Underground River would generally underperform in , because that's more often a control color. That color would love Dimir Aqueduct much more, for example. I think it's also great that you left out Lavaclaw Reaches and ignored the cycle-completion bug, because that card is just a lot less impressive than the other four (Stirring Wildwoods is passable enough, though clearly inferior to the other three still).

 

[Onderzeeboot]

I don't even know how broken this deck is. Monastery Master looks incredibly fair with Recurring Nightmare, right? Basically it's just ramp into unbeatable fatties.dec.

Onderzeeboot's 4-color Goodness from CubeTutor.com

For the next draft I actually ended up in a kinda aggro deck, though with a bit more four-drops than I'ld like. Looks like something that can put a fair bit of pressure on the opponent.

Onderzeeboot's URg Aggro from CubeTutor.com

Fifth draft started with Jitte into Sulfuric Vortex into Hero of Bladehold as my first three picks. I was lucky some one- and two-drops wheeled during the draft. I felt I was continually crossing my fingers that the other drafters would leave the meager amount of low-drops alone. The mana fixing is also rough. The previous four decks were all three-color, which lets you pick up a reasonable amount of fixing, but when you try to stick to two colors because you need to hit the ground running (i.e. a 3-color aggro deck would fall apart) your options dwindle fast. I hope to god one of my neighbours named or for Paliano, because otherwise I'm pretty screwed. All in all this is a deck I would expect to have a good run with though, it's fairly focused, the removal is cheap (allowing me to deploy more threats while removing a blocker), and I've picked up a few certified bombs as well.

Onderzeeboot's Boros Aggro draft from CubeTutor.com

 

[Onderzeeboot]

It's a matter of time before CubeTutor won't pass Recurring Nightmare and Grave Titan this easily anymore. Behold this awesome 4-Color Wildfire concoction! Muzzio's Preparation on Brimaz makes sure the kitty survives all kinds of firestorms! Meow!

Onderzeeboot's 4-Color Wildfire draft from CubeTutor.com

 

[blacksmithy]

Onder (may I call you Onder?), I love these decks you're making. And I have a confession to make: I haven't updated Cubetutor yet but Lavaclaw Reaches is in there now, because I have a manland addiction. Also, sorry, I must have missed where you suggested 5 fixers per guild earlier. With that info in mind, I'm thinking of two basic setups for my guild lands, and I'm also thinking of taking the plunge and going all the way to SIX FIXERS cuz lands are cool.
SINGLETON: Fetch, shock, buddy, pain/filter, man/???, ??? (The ??? would be stuff like Karoos, Temples, scars, etc)
NON-SINGLETON: Fetch, shock, shock, buddy, (I like the buddy/shock interaction ok), pain/filter, man/??? (in this scenario I probably wouldn't run all 5 mans but I still love them)
Also, my love story about Stirring Wildwood is, when I was testing Delver I had a game where I only survived because I could block Delver with SW. I find it's a really good defensive manland, which is weird but still useful, especially in durdly GW decks that want to get Maverick-style tutor engines going or dig for their Muzzio'd Finks or whatever. Lavaclaw Reaches I haven't tested yet, but if it's the only tapped land in Rakdos I think it'll be okay.
Anyway thanks again for making decks, and enjoy the bots' naiveté about the new busted stuff I put in! That whole cycle of non-modern bonkers cards is pretty new in my cube.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

It's just a screen name, so I'm fine with you shortening it

I think five is probably fine. Remember you're also running some rainbow lands, so you'll end up at around 60 lands. That's a good percentage I think. Fetch/shock/shock looks like a fine start, since those are good in every archetype. Then you can add the two lands to each color pair that best fit the needs of that pair. Boros usually wants untapped fixing on turn one (Battlefield Forge), Orzhov is color-intensive (Fetid Heath), etc.

Edit: I still don't think Lavaclaw Reaches is where you want to be in those colors, though fixing is fixing I suppose. I think I would be happier with Blackcleave Cliffs, Temple of Malice, or Graven Cairns.

 

[blacksmithy]

Yeah, I definitely want blackcleave in rakdos. My setup for that guild would likely be Mire, crypt, reach, cliffs, summit (fetch, shock, man, scar, buddy) if i didnt break singleton for two shocks.

New question! With mystic snake and finkel in mma15, i want to find room in my guild sections for them both! My problem is im really happy with simic already. So im probably just gonna add instead of replace to go up to 4 gold/5 land per guild. Heres what im looking at so far to add:
Wu-???
Ub-shadowmage
Br-???
Rg-burning tree emissary
Gw-???
Wb-???
Ur-???
Bg-varolz or deed, whichever isn't in already
Rw-lightning helix
Gu-mystic snake

Any suggestions for the empty spots?

 

[safra]

just run BTE as a green or red creature, whichever you need more of right now - it's not really restrictive to cast like your other options are

my suggestions:


e: fun fact, olivia's name is an anagram of OVERDONE VILLAIN

 

[blacksmithy]

Good suggestions! I especially like clan defiance and izzet charm.
Can you talk a little about why you chose those?

 

[safra]

Good suggestions! I especially like clan defiance and izzet charm.
Can you talk a little about why you chose those?

Sure!

you don't have a lot of ramp but the ramp you do have is really strong, so a spell with utility wherever you are on your curve (especially if you ramp and then flood!) seems pretty good. Of the options Defiance is i think the best/most fun, and goddamn does casting it feel good

there probably isn't an izzet deck in your cube that wouldn't want charm in its 40, it digs, shocks, and protects your plan

(i'm super into cards that cost CD or, even better, XCD because they can just help you spend mana efficiently every turn)

 

[blacksmithy]

Good stuff, good stuff.
I'm kinda hem-hawing about Unburial Rites and Falkenrath Aristocrat in their respective guilds, too. Maybe this is more a fight club discussion but let's pit them vs. Sculler and draculady??

 

[Onderzeeboot]

If you have a sacrifice theme going I would opt for Falkenrath Aristocrat. It's also a faster clock, and I think appropriately powerful for your cube. Unburial Rites is awesome value, but Sculler is also really good. I'ld pull Mortify to be honest, which is just generic removal at the end of the day.

 

[safra]

def go aristocrat if you want to support sacrifice value decks! she's really aggressive, but olivia lets aggro or midrange decks steal their opponent's big creature, and, uh, their opponents are prob. gonna have some pretty big creatures! mostly it comes down to whether you wanna push aggro or jund-style midrange

if you want to cut mortify, do it for utter end
imo add sculler over rites, i don't see enough mill (and it's a >360 list) to really support milling it, which means you need to cast it and then flash it back. that's fine but it's not the deck rites really drives, and sculler is great disruption (try Victimize maybe?)

 

[blacksmithy]

I can definitely see myself taking out mortify for sculler and rites. I really wanna do the gifts-rites thing on someone in an esper control list. Also, when reanimator comes together for me it's usually value reanimator, which rites kind of fits into better than it would in the all-in version.