Does anyone here attempt to support blue-based aggro (not Ux aggro, but solidly blue) in their cube? It could be standard efficient creatures (those the term efficient is a stretch for this subject) or tribal based with Merfolk or the like. I think there will be a time in the near future (2-3 years) where blue aggro can be a thing for a number of cubes, so I just wanted to check and see if anyone has given it a shot with the tools we currently have.
General Blue Aggro?
- Thread starter JParnell
- Start date
Rob Dennis
Developer
the canonical article for a long time on this was Kranny's: http://www.gatheringmagic.com/enabling-blue-based-tempo-or-“blueggro”-in-your-cube/
2.5 years old at this point, but it's certainly shaped a lot of cubes since. The takeaways I've stayed with are that blue aggro is at it's best when it's bounching/tempoing out the opposition (Aether Adept, Venser) while protecting its guys. As opposed to the high-power evasive glass cannons and no value (Welkin Tern/Rishadan Airship) game
2.5 years old at this point, but it's certainly shaped a lot of cubes since. The takeaways I've stayed with are that blue aggro is at it's best when it's bounching/tempoing out the opposition (Aether Adept, Venser) while protecting its guys. As opposed to the high-power evasive glass cannons and no value (Welkin Tern/Rishadan Airship) game
Blue tempo is one of my favourite decks to draft in cube, especially when paired with either white or red, but I don't know that I've ever gone as far as going mono-blue. The opportunity cost of dipping into another colour is so low, and the rewards so.. well, rewarding, that I'm not sure why I'd want to stick to just one colour. I'd say my decks are still typically solidly blue, as in, two-thirds blue cards. Or am I misreading your post..? If I am, feel free to ignore my nonsensical ramblings (though in truth, that should be your default response to any of my posts regardless).
Some of the key cards in U/x tempo here in my Modern cube, roughly in descending order of importance, are:
Snapcaster Mage
Remand
Looter il-Kor
Vendilion Clique
Ancestral Vision
Phantasmal Image
Ponder, Preordain
Good cheap counterspells: your Mana Leaks, Rune Snags
Riftwing Cloudskate
Aether Adept
Venser, Shaper Savant
Ninja of the Deep Hours
Delay
Repeal
Wake Thrasher
Pestermite
Vapor Snag
Delver of Secrets
Some of the key cards in U/x tempo here in my Modern cube, roughly in descending order of importance, are:
Snapcaster Mage
Remand
Looter il-Kor
Vendilion Clique
Ancestral Vision
Phantasmal Image
Ponder, Preordain
Good cheap counterspells: your Mana Leaks, Rune Snags
Riftwing Cloudskate
Aether Adept
Venser, Shaper Savant
Ninja of the Deep Hours
Delay
Repeal
Wake Thrasher
Pestermite
Vapor Snag
Delver of Secrets
CML
Contributor
kranny's article is a classic -- that being said, i once attempted this in my own cube, but it didn't work that well. i disagree with many of the card choices, as the list requires a whole bunch of bad blue creatures to prop up some really powerful blue spells. i.e. why bother playing blue creatures at all if the deck has the haymakers standstill and opposition for enchantments, and hapless researcher and spiketail drakeling for creatures.
that being said my cube then was a much worse design of mine than i have right now, so there's some extent to which its not working was my fault.
to build on the previous point, i'm very much with rob on the kinds of creatures this deck wants. however, i have a hard time imagining blue aggro having fewer than three colors total. RUG delver in legacy for example plays only delvers for blue threats. doubling up on cantrips seems to be the way to go here, or else breaking singleton some other way. an easy parallel is jason's black aggro, which just doesn't work in a singleton cube ever, as much as conventional cube design would like to have us believe that it's not their design that's bad
edit: +1 to wake thrasher
second edit: is jace beleren always as absurd as i think in this kind of deck too?
that being said my cube then was a much worse design of mine than i have right now, so there's some extent to which its not working was my fault.
to build on the previous point, i'm very much with rob on the kinds of creatures this deck wants. however, i have a hard time imagining blue aggro having fewer than three colors total. RUG delver in legacy for example plays only delvers for blue threats. doubling up on cantrips seems to be the way to go here, or else breaking singleton some other way. an easy parallel is jason's black aggro, which just doesn't work in a singleton cube ever, as much as conventional cube design would like to have us believe that it's not their design that's bad
edit: +1 to wake thrasher
second edit: is jace beleren always as absurd as i think in this kind of deck too?
You know, I tried out all the ideas in this list at one point, and like CML, things just did not work very well. Many of the cards were super weak, and not at all wanted by the "aggro" decks, much less the control ones.
Perhaps I'm not appreciating exactly what the distinction to be had here is. Wizards prints very few "aggro" blue cards that are on the same power level as aggro cards in other colors. After Serendib Efreet, Wake Thrasher and Delver (which really requires a tempo build to flip), the curve starts to drop off pretty hard. But as others have suggested, things have worked best as more tempo than aggro. I'd argue that this is by design. It just follows the color pie.
But maybe I'm getting caught up in terminology? Many of the cards in Kranny's "Blue Aggro" article are tempo-based in nature.
Either way, I think it's fighting an uphill battle. Yes, there will be more good blue creatures printed in the future, but there will be more good everything printed. The bar will be raised. Wizards will continue to print more good aggressive creatures in the other colors than in blue. If you stick to singleton power max, I'm curious as to what there is to bring blue up to par in this theatre.
Like all strategies, I think it can be implemented today, but would require some degree of powering down your other sections and/or breaking singleton in blue. But I think more important are two questions.
1) What are we defining as "aggro" and "tempo" here?
To me aggro is trying to deal 20 as fast as possible, and tempo is trying to get on the board and disrupt the opponent. Are there better definitions we can use?
2) If we truly mean blue "aggro" and not "tempo", why do we want to do that?
If I'm going to push aggro into a new color, what is my motivation? What design advantage is there to doing green aggro or blue aggro? Are we doing them just to do them? Do we want the same red and white cards with different colors printed on the card? Perhaps I'm being pedantic in definitions here. What I'm getting at is the question of what is it that "solidly blue" aggro gives to us that "Ux Tempo" does not. Is that something we want? what kind of sacrifices do we have to make in our design for that to happen? How are we compensating for the control design space that gets eaten up by expanding aggro? Do these changes make things more fun?
A lot of questions, but the topic is a little abstract and perhaps we would benefit from increased clarity.
CML
Contributor
(constructed perspective)
as i understand it aggro v. tempo is
-a subtle distinction in terms of how these decks operate -- tempo plays a more interactive game, whereas aggro is concerned with goldfishing anyone before they get set up. you could call tempo control in this regard.
-some other ideas are that tempo needs to find 'answer' cards and will often ride a single threat to victory, where aggro more wants to curve out.
-tempo also requires some of the good cantrips (incl. gitaxian probe and the 3 big ones) to find its answers, and for this reason it does not exist in modern or in most standard formats.
-though aggro has trouble coming from behind, tempo is even worse at it, since if they elude the hammerlock they will kill you and your hokey-ass one-drops. tempo is better against ramp and combo, whereas aggro is better against control and beats the shit out of tempo.
-aggro plays few lands. tempo plays even fewer.
-tempo is based on the good ol' nickel-and-dime and is very incremental in accumulating its advantages ("swing for 3 with delver. vapor snag your guy, take 1. snapcaster, flash back vapor snag, take 1. swing for 2.") aggro will make a nacatl and then a goyf and god help you if you do nothing.
-tempo will often 1-for-1 people and is loath to throw away value. aggro don't give a fuck
-tempo will flip delver t2 with mana leak and leave it up. aggro will make a nacatl and then a goyf.
-a classic tempo card is stifle. a classic aggro card is wild nacatl. some instances of overlap are lightning bolt and wasteland.
-there's a continuum between the two when it comes to actual decks, but some towards either pole are:
tempo decks -- legacy RUG Delver, legacy old-school Team America (just to show that these kinds of decks did exist before delver), and ISD standard delver; aggro decks -- legacy Merfolk, standard Gruul, modern affinity.
the concept of tempo in games is more obvious ("so I played U for unsummon in response to your sword equip to a 4-drop, and you're up a card but i'm up eight mana. can i kill you before the card disadvantage matters?") and it's an important part of mtg's complexity. that window can be quite small in constructed, and since tempo decks are for the most part highly-developed decks that run a lot of 4-ofs from all across mtg history, supporting it in a singleton cube strikes me as a poor idea.
in cube i think people say 'blue tempo' because the density of creatures is going to be pretty low due to the suckage of said creatures. plus the creatures worth running are typically not your heavy-hittin' loxodon smiter but the extremely annoying venser and man-o-war (exception for wake thrasher). there are other reasons, but those are the big ones.
that being said, jason! the threats aren't all on the order of lameness of serendib efreet. man-o-war and vendilion clique are classic 3's, and i don't need any extra incentive to run sower or venser or sakashima's student or riftwing cloudskate.
in my opinion blue tempo needs the following to be supported:
-at least 2x of the big three cantrips, for filtering
-a very high density of high-power-level fixing, for reasonable (non-U) threats
-a conscious promotion of the theme to the point where you'd have to start cutting other U cards that fit the Cube well. i haven't been able to figure out how to surmount this, so i don't really run with the theme.
is it worth it? i don't think so, but i'm hoping i'm wrong.
as i understand it aggro v. tempo is
-a subtle distinction in terms of how these decks operate -- tempo plays a more interactive game, whereas aggro is concerned with goldfishing anyone before they get set up. you could call tempo control in this regard.
-some other ideas are that tempo needs to find 'answer' cards and will often ride a single threat to victory, where aggro more wants to curve out.
-tempo also requires some of the good cantrips (incl. gitaxian probe and the 3 big ones) to find its answers, and for this reason it does not exist in modern or in most standard formats.
-though aggro has trouble coming from behind, tempo is even worse at it, since if they elude the hammerlock they will kill you and your hokey-ass one-drops. tempo is better against ramp and combo, whereas aggro is better against control and beats the shit out of tempo.
-aggro plays few lands. tempo plays even fewer.
-tempo is based on the good ol' nickel-and-dime and is very incremental in accumulating its advantages ("swing for 3 with delver. vapor snag your guy, take 1. snapcaster, flash back vapor snag, take 1. swing for 2.") aggro will make a nacatl and then a goyf and god help you if you do nothing.
-tempo will often 1-for-1 people and is loath to throw away value. aggro don't give a fuck
-tempo will flip delver t2 with mana leak and leave it up. aggro will make a nacatl and then a goyf.
-a classic tempo card is stifle. a classic aggro card is wild nacatl. some instances of overlap are lightning bolt and wasteland.
-there's a continuum between the two when it comes to actual decks, but some towards either pole are:
tempo decks -- legacy RUG Delver, legacy old-school Team America (just to show that these kinds of decks did exist before delver), and ISD standard delver; aggro decks -- legacy Merfolk, standard Gruul, modern affinity.
the concept of tempo in games is more obvious ("so I played U for unsummon in response to your sword equip to a 4-drop, and you're up a card but i'm up eight mana. can i kill you before the card disadvantage matters?") and it's an important part of mtg's complexity. that window can be quite small in constructed, and since tempo decks are for the most part highly-developed decks that run a lot of 4-ofs from all across mtg history, supporting it in a singleton cube strikes me as a poor idea.
in cube i think people say 'blue tempo' because the density of creatures is going to be pretty low due to the suckage of said creatures. plus the creatures worth running are typically not your heavy-hittin' loxodon smiter but the extremely annoying venser and man-o-war (exception for wake thrasher). there are other reasons, but those are the big ones.
that being said, jason! the threats aren't all on the order of lameness of serendib efreet. man-o-war and vendilion clique are classic 3's, and i don't need any extra incentive to run sower or venser or sakashima's student or riftwing cloudskate.
in my opinion blue tempo needs the following to be supported:
-at least 2x of the big three cantrips, for filtering
-a very high density of high-power-level fixing, for reasonable (non-U) threats
-a conscious promotion of the theme to the point where you'd have to start cutting other U cards that fit the Cube well. i haven't been able to figure out how to surmount this, so i don't really run with the theme.
is it worth it? i don't think so, but i'm hoping i'm wrong.
I agree that it's a continuum. Given your definitions, my question is perhaps whether we should strive to be supporting blue tempo decks or blue aggro decks. To my limited knowledge there are very few decks that I would consider to be the analogue of aggro decks in blue. Even Legacy Merfolk overloads on free counterspells. Mostly blue attacking decks are tempo based, and I don't know how far you want to push against the cardpool to get to the aggro end of that spectrum.
I've pushed tempo harder in the past, and the thing that made it possible is doubling (or tripling) up on Delver. I really don't want to load my "aggressive" deck with spells for just a single Delver, I'd rather play more threats. If I have two or three I can justify that deck decision a bit better, otherwise the payoff's not there. The problem is that if nobody is in tempo decks, all the Delvers go unplayed. Like most themes, to pull it off you really have to dedicate to it and give it a proper critical mass, as opposed to the "if you get exactly this set of cards you can play this archetype" old school of cube design.
To that end I also imagine that multiple Brainstorms would be desirable. Then you have to think about your Miracles and shuffle effects and all sorts of other things.
CML
Contributor
So what I think is that Blue tempo fits better in the gestalt of the Cube, since it requires fewer blue creatures. You and I seem to agree that there are not enough good Blue creatures to support Blue aggro in Cube, as it would require cutting too many sweet Blue cards. I mean, it seems absurd to cut Deep Analysis for a Cursecatcher and in fact it is absurd. In Magic history Legacy Merfolk runs 4-of's of literally every good Fish ever printed and it still has to lard itself with crap like Coralhelm Commander. (Well, not anymore!)
Also agreed Blue aggro runs up against the Poison Principle too much.
I don't run Miracles at all, playgroup is not into that kind of thing. That being said, Ponder and Preordain require zero work to be fun (though Ponder is certainly better with shuffles too), while with Brainstorm 20/360 fetches is surely enough to make it awesome. Anyone who's played Legacy knows that Brainstorm is one of the funnest cards in all of Magic. I wouldn't worry at all.
Really, though, it's futile to try and describe the effect 2x of each cantrip has without trying it yourself
Also agreed Blue aggro runs up against the Poison Principle too much.
I don't run Miracles at all, playgroup is not into that kind of thing. That being said, Ponder and Preordain require zero work to be fun (though Ponder is certainly better with shuffles too), while with Brainstorm 20/360 fetches is surely enough to make it awesome. Anyone who's played Legacy knows that Brainstorm is one of the funnest cards in all of Magic. I wouldn't worry at all.
Really, though, it's futile to try and describe the effect 2x of each cantrip has without trying it yourself
Dom Harvey
Contributor
Tempo at its best (think Faeries) involves being able to change the direction of a game quickly. Often you'd mess around killing guys and countering spells, then play a Clique into Scion or w/e and suddenly they have three turns to find an answer against your cheap and plentiful disruption or just die. The best card at doing that in Cube is Riftwing Cloudskate: you make a down payment on Turn 2, counter a spell on Turn 4, then bounce their guy and play something else and now you're at parity or ahead and there's not much they can d0 about it.
I'm not sure that blue tempo is good enough yet in a singleton environment. The fact that Porcelain Legionnaire is blue's best 2-drop says a lot.
I'm not sure that blue tempo is good enough yet in a singleton environment. The fact that Porcelain Legionnaire is blue's best 2-drop says a lot.
This has been a very interesting discussion so far. I have compiled a range of know strategies below in an easy-to follow graphic:
(might need corrections)
I have been consistently trying to improve blue as a color that taps creatures to win games and I don't think I like the pure aggro route to victory for blue. It does pair with every other color for very cool tempo decks that are fun to build and fun to play. I am including a varied package of blue creatures in my cube this week to see how it plays out.
These are some cards that have made blue better as a creature color:
(not including the cards mentioned by Eric which are also great)
Invisible Stalker
Voidmage Prodigy
Standstill
Sygg, River Guide
Azure Mage
Inkfathom Infiltrator
Some of those are not exclusively blue, but you can play them in monoblue as well.
Voidmage Prodigy is definitely an interesting card because pretty much half of every other blue creatures you are going to play in a blue deck are wizards anyway (and Delver gets to counter something if he doesn't flip!). Wizards is a pretty weird tribe to support if you want true aggressive decks because they are very wimpy by themselves and have no interesting pump lords, but most wizards are also humans, and that combines well with green (if you have Mayor of Avabruck) and white (Champion of the Parish).
If I were to have blue support truely aggressive strategies, I would definitely go the merfolks route. There are so many generals and so many interesting disruptive low-cost merfolks that I could see it being a thing.
Equipment has played an important role for blue tempo decks here as well, so be sure you include some. Bonesplitter or Grafted Wargear with either Looter il-Kor or Invisible Stalker means you spend less time disrupting and more time racing.
(might need corrections)
I have been consistently trying to improve blue as a color that taps creatures to win games and I don't think I like the pure aggro route to victory for blue. It does pair with every other color for very cool tempo decks that are fun to build and fun to play. I am including a varied package of blue creatures in my cube this week to see how it plays out.
These are some cards that have made blue better as a creature color:
(not including the cards mentioned by Eric which are also great)
Invisible Stalker
Voidmage Prodigy
Standstill
Sygg, River Guide
Azure Mage
Inkfathom Infiltrator
Some of those are not exclusively blue, but you can play them in monoblue as well.
Voidmage Prodigy is definitely an interesting card because pretty much half of every other blue creatures you are going to play in a blue deck are wizards anyway (and Delver gets to counter something if he doesn't flip!). Wizards is a pretty weird tribe to support if you want true aggressive decks because they are very wimpy by themselves and have no interesting pump lords, but most wizards are also humans, and that combines well with green (if you have Mayor of Avabruck) and white (Champion of the Parish).
If I were to have blue support truely aggressive strategies, I would definitely go the merfolks route. There are so many generals and so many interesting disruptive low-cost merfolks that I could see it being a thing.
Equipment has played an important role for blue tempo decks here as well, so be sure you include some. Bonesplitter or Grafted Wargear with either Looter il-Kor or Invisible Stalker means you spend less time disrupting and more time racing.
CML
Contributor
there aren't nearly enough fish in mtg history to do fish tribal. the legacy deck has to run 4 of all the lords and even then got stuck running coralhelm and image (which to be fair was awesome until a couple days ago) fortunately m14 gives it the sweet toy of tidebinder. anyway, in cube, you'd end up breaking singleton and then the fish would suck unless one person got all of them and it would lead to stupid drafts and games and generally act as a cautionary tale against any tribal in cube
those blue creatures either make me want to blow my brains out (invisible stalker) or are just not great (the rest). i'm way more on board with shadowmoor sygg than lorwyn sygg
i'm going to go on record and say that all tribal in cube is just a bad theme unless you break singleton or are doing humans. this revelation came to me as i attempted to force in a tribal zombie theme; after including every possible playable, i had half the number of zombies i had humans. CHAMP AND MAYOR AWWWWW YEAH 10/10 for those guys. someone get me an alter with Clay Davis and Clarence Royce.
looter il-kor is just awesome and it baffles me that not everyone is on board with his awesomeness
those blue creatures either make me want to blow my brains out (invisible stalker) or are just not great (the rest). i'm way more on board with shadowmoor sygg than lorwyn sygg
i'm going to go on record and say that all tribal in cube is just a bad theme unless you break singleton or are doing humans. this revelation came to me as i attempted to force in a tribal zombie theme; after including every possible playable, i had half the number of zombies i had humans. CHAMP AND MAYOR AWWWWW YEAH 10/10 for those guys. someone get me an alter with Clay Davis and Clarence Royce.
looter il-kor is just awesome and it baffles me that not everyone is on board with his awesomeness
The inherent problem with tribal is that it is designed for environments where you take weak cards that become stronger via critical mass. It's mostly designed for retail draft environments and Standard, both of which translate pretty poorly to cube. It also puts you squarely into poison principle issues, as most of the cards are underpowered on their own (slivers say hello).
I'd love to see somebody do an exploration of Faerie or Wizard tribal. I apparently have something like 23 Wizards and 5 Faeries. Maybe you need to go deeper on Changelings?
Spellstutter Sprite is a fun card in Pauper, but there you have 4x Cloud of Faeries in your deck.
I'd love to see somebody do an exploration of Faerie or Wizard tribal. I apparently have something like 23 Wizards and 5 Faeries. Maybe you need to go deeper on Changelings?
Spellstutter Sprite is a fun card in Pauper, but there you have 4x Cloud of Faeries in your deck.
D'oh...got the wrong Sygg here...will edit my post to point to the right one!
So, it gets to a point that to accomodate blue aggro, your cube doesn't have to be power-oriented and you are playing suboptimal cards and/or breaking singleton. OK. Weren't we supposed to be the community that went after the fun ideas instead of power maximizing? Which one of us is taking this idea and building a cool new list and showing the world which environment variables make it viable?
@Jason: You could try Voidmage Prodigy and/or 2xSpellstutter to see how it fares. I think you might be playing as many wizards as I am and my list is 1.5 times bigger. Though it seems that your Voidmage might be better in UB while mine seems to be at its best at UW.
So, it gets to a point that to accomodate blue aggro, your cube doesn't have to be power-oriented and you are playing suboptimal cards and/or breaking singleton. OK. Weren't we supposed to be the community that went after the fun ideas instead of power maximizing? Which one of us is taking this idea and building a cool new list and showing the world which environment variables make it viable?
Man, I'd love to but I'm knee deep in a few other cube projects at the moment.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
I like the chart! As for your suggustions, I'm a little less enthused.This has been a very interesting discussion so far. I have compiled a range of know strategies below in an easy-to follow graphic:
(might need corrections)
I have been consistently trying to improve blue as a color that taps creatures to win games and I don't think I like the pure aggro route to victory for blue. It does pair with every other color for very cool tempo decks that are fun to build and fun to play. I am including a varied package of blue creatures in my cube this week to see how it plays out.
These are some cards that have made blue better as a creature color:
(not including the cards mentioned by Eric which are also great)
Invisible Stalker
Voidmage Prodigy
Standstill
Sygg, River Guide
Azure Mage
Inkfathom Infiltrator
Some of those are not exclusively blue, but you can play them in monoblue as well.
Voidmage Prodigy is definitely an interesting card because pretty much half of every other blue creatures you are going to play in a blue deck are wizards anyway (and Delver gets to counter something if he doesn't flip!). Wizards is a pretty weird tribe to support if you want true aggressive decks because they are very wimpy by themselves and have no interesting pump lords, but most wizards are also humans, and that combines well with green (if you have Mayor of Avabruck) and white (Champion of the Parish).
If I were to have blue support truely aggressive strategies, I would definitely go the merfolks route. There are so many generals and so many interesting disruptive low-cost merfolks that I could see it being a thing.
Equipment has played an important role for blue tempo decks here as well, so be sure you include some. Bonesplitter or Grafted Wargear with either Looter il-Kor or Invisible Stalker means you spend less time disrupting and more time racing.
Invisible Stalker: horribly non-interactive, horrible on his own. Both unfun and bad. Pass.
Voidmage Prodigy: This is at it's best as a 4 drop with other expendable wizards out, not early which is where blue needs the help. It's also REALLY clunky on the mana, and for way less reward then similar requirements like cryptic command.
Standstill: This one I like. It synergizes well with manlands (as we've learned from legacy) but also works as just a card to follow dudes with. Probably the least parasitic card a tempo deck wants. A+
Also sweet sample play: Land, Mox, Coiling Oracle (Hit Land). Land, Bitterblossom, Standstill, Show Ninja of the Deep Hours.
Sygg: He seems okay. I'm not one to dismiss something with Auger of Bolas Stats, especially one which can draw me multiple cards (Albeit if things are going exceedingly well). Worth testing, and I love the flexability of the mana cost, essentially as a free bonus as I slot this into my blue section. I might try this guy out. Also top gear jokes.
Azure Mage: This one never really worked for me. Not having flying is a big strike against this, since it's usually the only non-blocker in a blue deck which doesn't, so it's usually the only guy in your squad hanging back, stymied by the Elephant Token from 4 turns ago. Sure he can draw you cards, but Treasure Trove is a really bad card outside DC10. Whenever I played it, it either did some attacking (Becuase I had A LOT of bounce) or it drew some cards (Because I was super flooded) but never both in the same deck, and played out mostly as a split card where both halves where horrible, and you only ever got one.
Inkfathom Infiltrator: Rant Time: DO NOT RUN THIS CARD. SHADOW WAS A BAD MECHANIC, IT MAKES COMBAT UNINTERESTING AND AGGRO BAD. (This was black's problem for years: everything was a worse version of a white creature and couldn't block). One thing we come back to now and again is that blue is going to be turning the game around on a dime, backpeddling for a few turns before playing one card and forcing your opponent to find an answer or be dead soon (As with the scion example above).
Here's the thing: This card makes that REALLY REALLY HARD. You can't switch between offense and defense if your cards only do one of those things. You wouldn't play steppe lynx or wall of omens in this kind of deck, why would you do this?
This card is both bad for blue aggro and represents a bad direction. Don't do it.
[/rant]
Other sweet cards:
Tempo counters: Remand, Memory Lapse, Delay. You're probably already running the first two, but consider finding more. I'm trying out delay at the moment, and it seems like it would be sweet. Less good on the turn 10 llanowar elf, but better on the turn 4 wrath.
Good Bounce: Into the Roil, Repulse, Vapor Snag, Withdraw. Ah, withdraw, the one good card from prophecy. Also doubles as sweet tech due to it's role as psudo crystal shard in the blink decks
Also, vapor snag is good. Just try it.
Embracing the Joy of large posteriors: Serendib Efreet, Stitched Drake, Calcite Snapper: Blue creatures are usually really small, so most of the ones that make it into our cubes have 1 toughness and high power so they can still be threats (See the endless parade of coral merfolk) but someone needs to be doing the blocking. If the game just starts and Bedlam is in play, you're almost certainly going to lose. Give the tempo deck something that beats down, but can hold the fort if needed. Also, confuse and fool your drafters by saying they're control cards
Sweet Multicolor Cards:
Geist of St Traft: Yeah he's insane. I think we all mostly know why. Hexproof is annoying but you can still deal with him since basically every deck has bears to throw at him, leading to interesting moments where you into the roil their solemn simulacrum to get the damage in.
Duskmantle Seer: This guy is the nuts. Most people think he gives them a card when you pass with him, but that's incorrect: BOTH players draw on YOUR upkeep, which changes the dynamic of the card significantly. Moroii is a stronger card than it looks, and that one doesn't draw you cards.
Far // Away: One of the better tempo spells of recent years, and very solid. Give it a shot if you haven't already
Edric, Spymaster of Trest: Aside from being the most awesome thing to follow up Avenger of Zendikar with, this guy is insanely strong with the right support, frequently drawing 2 cards the turn he comes down, and threatening way way more if he lives.
Shardless Agent: Cascade is insane, we all know that. This card is also insane. I know you think it'll just always hit mana leak and you'll cry, but thats hardly the case. Draft and build your deck right! Play bounce, play dudes, play removal spells! This card is amazing and fun and it's a crime nobody uses it.
Ral Zarek: Walkers are sweet about 90% of the time, and this guy certainly is. the +1 is much better when it's tapping blockers to clear the way, and who doesn't want bolts?
I've been known to first pick a Looter il-Kor and then force tempo all the way through. Like Vince mentioned, any equipment + looter is boss.
I think that Modern Masters shows how a light sprinkling of tribal can be done right. Granted, the power level of that set is a lot lower than even the lowest-powered list on this forum, but I think there's still some good examples there we can learn from. Namely, that changelings are sweet! And that the environment needs to be carefully crafted around the tribal elements, so that Avian Changeling isn't outright embarrassing.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Or: Small benefits.
Krenko is a fine card as the only goblin in your deck since he doubles every turn, and coralhelm commander is a fine creature even when he's not an anthemn
Krenko is a fine card as the only goblin in your deck since he doubles every turn, and coralhelm commander is a fine creature even when he's not an anthemn
CML
Contributor
Yeah, Chris's posts nail it. Tribal cards that are good on their own are pretty delightful.
I agree with Eric on MMA and like the idea of changelings in cube, though I'm hesitant to include any beyond taurean mauler, cairn wanderer, mirror entity, (mutavault of course) on power-level concerns
Vince -- you're right I'm being at least! a trifle hypocritical about power level since this is RiptideLab after all and I did just write an article about powerful cards I hate the most. Here's what I tell myself: it's not so much that I dislike blue creatures because they suck, it's that I dislike them because they suck compared to the aggro blue cards that aren't creatures, and they suck compared to the rest of my Cube as well. (Flat power curve blah blah) In addition to the issue of "the cards all need to be drafted together to do much," in order to accommodate such cards I need to cut a bunch of others and it just ends up being either a half-assed attempt at a theme or a theme that takes up too much space to justify it.
Long story short I don't wanna fiddle with 380 cards to accommodate 25 but could be convinced to do the other way around
Anyone play with Mogg War Marshal in Cube?
I agree with Eric on MMA and like the idea of changelings in cube, though I'm hesitant to include any beyond taurean mauler, cairn wanderer, mirror entity, (mutavault of course) on power-level concerns
Vince -- you're right I'm being at least! a trifle hypocritical about power level since this is RiptideLab after all and I did just write an article about powerful cards I hate the most. Here's what I tell myself: it's not so much that I dislike blue creatures because they suck, it's that I dislike them because they suck compared to the aggro blue cards that aren't creatures, and they suck compared to the rest of my Cube as well. (Flat power curve blah blah) In addition to the issue of "the cards all need to be drafted together to do much," in order to accommodate such cards I need to cut a bunch of others and it just ends up being either a half-assed attempt at a theme or a theme that takes up too much space to justify it.
Long story short I don't wanna fiddle with 380 cards to accommodate 25 but could be convinced to do the other way around
Anyone play with Mogg War Marshal in Cube?
Dom Harvey
Contributor
Mogg War Marshal is solid
Yeah, you ever play Dragon Fodder? It's like that, only it gives you value when it dies.
lol my cube feels lower power than MMA sometimes! That's probably because my only MMA draft I got stomped by a sword though
lol my cube feels lower power than MMA sometimes! That's probably because my only MMA draft I got stomped by a sword though