Card/Deck Blue GRBS?

vennythekid

vennythekid

I've noticed that, while drafting (and test drafting) cubes, that there's very little that will get me to pick a card over the following:


Do you guys condsider these GRBS? Uninteresting to draft? Uninteresting to play? And if so, what sort of replacements would you suggest?
 
anotak

anotak

maybe its just got to do with me being bad or environs ive played in but ive lost many many games where i resolved fof

edit: and honestly i've seen it a lot on other people's end too, i've won plenty of games against a resolved fof
 
vennythekid

vennythekid

Like James said, its super strong. I've seen tons of games won/lost to FoF EOT. Especially when graveyard synergy is involved (Snapcaster, Delve, Lavamacer, Gravecrawler, etc)
 
Diakonov

Diakonov

Treachery and Opposition seem like GRBS, but I think the rest are OK. Mindsculptor is strong but it really isn't unfair in most cubes, IMO.

Sometimes I wonder if Cryptic Command is GRBS. Real hard to lose after resolving that one.

Has Vryn's Prodigy been too good? I just traded for one with the intention of adding it to my cube.
 
vennythekid

vennythekid

Vryn's Prodigey is a really strong, proactive two drop for Blue; something the color is generally lacking. Also, but unrelated, I'm sorta thinking of trimming the planeswalkers I've got in blue (which has by far the most of any color).
 
ahadabans

ahadabans

I'd add to the list. At least treachery can be disenchanted and they can only steal what you play. The feel bad potential on Bribery is exceedingly high and it feels like you can't play around it unless you just run an aggro deck. My group hates this card more than any other card I've ever run in cube.
 
Tyrole

Tyrole

Looking at much of the list you provided, it seems like strong card advantage might be the main power factor in your cube's environment. As a cube's power level flattens out, having more cards of relatively equal power level is going to trend toward being the best possible option. No longer will it be important to have a specific card; having more cards is simply the best strategy.

I approached this challenge in my own cube in two ways:
  1. Increase the value and abundance of synergy strategies/decks. This is the only way I have devised to make specific cards matter more without skewing the power curve. It shifts the dynamic away from "more cards is always best".
  2. Decrease the quality and abundance of card draw/advantage, and spread it across colors as much as possible. For instance, the only draw spell on your list that I run is Treasure Cruise, and it's almost certainly my best pure draw spell. It (and Dig) requires some setup, or a lot of mana, so there are some limitations. I like Cruise more than Dig because Dig gives you too much selection. Brainstorm is great because it is not too powerful, but it is still good, skill testing, and synergistic with the usual Riptide mana base.
You could also just decide to run cards of more varying power levels and it would probably smooth the problem a bit too (though it obviously introduces new challenges).

Since I don't get to draft my cube as often as I would like (once per month on average), I like to test "extreme cases" to explore design concerns I have. One of these concerns was "is card advantage way too good?". I drafted a deck where I prioritized strong card advantage spells over everything else, and ended up in a control deck with quite a bit of removal. It was too good. I made some actually very small tweaks to reduce and spread my draw. I also continued down my on-going path of enhancing synergy options. The next time I tried CardAdvantage.dec, it was good, but far from unbeatable. At this point, card draw spells are good picks, but far from a windmill slam.

Granted every cube is different, but your list of GRBS seems to have a theme.
 
FlowerSunRain

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
I think the idea that "you don't lose after casting Fact or Ficiton or Dig Through Time" is overstated. If you cast either of those spells while the board is tied up or you are in topdeck mode, you greatly increase your chance of winning, I agree with that. But, that is there exact purpose. If they didn't do that, why would you put them in your deck? I know I've lost games with FoF in my hand because I needed to keep interacting with the opponent. I mean, I could have cast it and lost the game anyway just to lower the resolved FoFs win percentage out of spite I guess, but had FoF been something that actively effects the board maybe I would have won. Having FoF in your deck costs something. It is really good. Maybe the cost isn't high enough. Ultimately, the card is pretty cuttable in the grand scheme of things, but I think its a less GRBS way to win then Treachery or Opposition. I like it because it gives late game muscle to decks that usually are at a disadvantage in my cube.
 
shamizy

shamizy



These are ones that come to mind. I don't find many of the others you've listed to be GRBS at all, especially not the walkers individually. In a superfriends deck? Sure. But if they're the only ones on the board then they're definitely manageable.
 
Onderzeeboot

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
MCMcEmcee said:
Opposition [...] ruins games.
Click to expand...
You are not wrong. Which breaks my heart because I love Opposition :(

I think Treachery also belongs on that list though. I wa doubtful myself, but it was the card my players most complained about. That untap effect is so strong in blue. You steal their bomb and get to protect it as well. Crushing.
 
Aoret

Aoret

Developer
Opposition and Treachery. The rest are strong but not GRBS. Depending on where the rest of your cube is at though, they still could be. If you're finding pure control dominating games it may be time to make other stuff better or tone down some of these options. Of the cards you listed, Dig Through Time is probably going to be the worst offender if control is strong.

IMHO, FoF is completely fine, so is Cryptic (that mana cost is rough!!!)
 
B

blacksmithy

FWIW i find flip-Jace to be really, really, realllyyyyyyy good. But not in a game-ruining way. Like, he makes your games a lot more fun while also being really good. Maybe I'm biased.
 
Quirk

Quirk

I'd just like to note I've lost a higher percentage of games after resolving Opposition than after resolving Upheaval.

You need a certain density of creatures in play to make Opposition good. It doesn't work in every deck and there are board states where it's a lousy topdeck. I don't think the games in which it is good are fun for the other player though.
 
ahadabans

ahadabans

Onderzeeboot's list is spot on. I forgot about Stasis. That's a good call. Capsize is a bit slow now in most cubes, but when it's good it's broken (so I can see in the list). Tinker is the dependent on what kind of targets you run, but I have yet to make fair tinker a thing. It's either broken or not worth sacing an artifact to.
 
Grillo_Parlante

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
It sounds like your issue isn't so much grbs as it is your blue cards make up a disproportionate percentage of your obvious early picks. If you feel its a problem, you'll want to cut some of those cards for spells that appear less pushed vs the rest of the cube.

Four of the cards you posted above are just strong draw, which probably suggests something about the format, and what the other colors aren't doing.
 
japahn

japahn

Generally, Onderzeeboot's list is for tempo environments while Venny's list is for CA environments. When my cube was slow, I had to cut Sphinx of Jwar Isle because there were very few answers to it. I'm pretty sure this sounds ridiculous to someone running a fast cube.
 
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