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[anotak]

can you give me themes will be besides cycling and 2/r

do you really want more? to me part of the appeal was I just can do shit with trying to guess where y'all are going. I didn't go too deep with themes, there's a handful of cards that synergize with cycling but can also exist in a "normal environment". there's uhhh 3 guys with living weapon. i tried to make cards that can just function wherever mostly though.

I think those "Suspend v 2.0" cards, discussed in Re-Making Magic episode 8, would be a fantastic inclusion. Aka "Warp" as it's currently called. I like most of the stuff in Dreamscape, too.

The stuff from that set still needs tweaking and testing though. Most of the Warp cards need to be a little more powerful.

ok this is cool but keep in mind it has to work through cockatrice and there's no way to warp through cockatrice

also if we shuffle what happens

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Warp feels absolutely ridiculous with Brainstorm. I like the design though

 

[GenericZero]

You could always have shuffling just cancel out the Warp. Suddenly, effects that make your opponent shuffle awkwardly have more play to them. But now how do we word Warp? As it's currently worded, Courser of Kruphix is fucking broken.

 

[spicewitch]

Warp feels absolutely ridiculous with Brainstorm. I like the design though

Yeah, it does a lot of good things. It's Suspend with no easily-forgotten counters to track. You can interact with it using: Brainstorm/scry, self-mill, whereas interacting with Suspend requires proliferate or narrow cards that only manipulate Suspend counters.

Courser of Kruphix technically says that the top card is "revealed", not that the card is turned face-up in the library. So it is technically not affected by the Warp rule. (Yay for MtG having a strong tradition of adhering to technical wordings and disregarding common sense!)

The shuffling problem is a big problem. Four ways to handle it that I see:

1. Shuffling a deck with face-up cards causes the F-Us to return to your hand. (this is my preferred option, because all you lose is the mana spent on the much-cheaper Warp cost. Now you can Warp it again if you're in the early game, or just wait to hardcast it if you're nearing the late game.)
2. Shuffling causes FUs to play to the field for free. (all land search cards and tutors extremely powerful)
3. Shuffling causes FUs to be flipped face down and shuffled into the deck. (This is so punishing, because you lose the mana spent on Warp AND you lose the card. For some reason, this is the rule currently favored by the set designer.)
4. Before shuffling, set aside your FUs. After shuffling, insert them into your deck at the depth indicated by their Warp effect. (This could become a hassle, but feels pretty fair to me.)

 

[Chris Taylor]

Can we get a transcript of how warp works for those at work? (Me)

 

[spicewitch]

Can we get a transcript of how warp works for those at work? (Me)

Warp Wing 6U
Creature - Illusion (C)
Flying
Warp 4 - 1U (Rather than cast this card from your hand, you may pay 1U and put it into your library face up beneath the top 4 cards. If you would draw a face up card, cast it without paying its mana cost instead.)
4/4

Right now, it's hidden card disadvantage, because casting it for free replaces your draw step. So the warp effects need to be really aggressively costed. But the designer is thinking about changing the trigger to "when a FU card becomes the top card of your library, cast it for free" or something like that. Or it could be "when you would draw a FU, cast it for free before drawing".

 

[MOON-E]

Greetings! I am the designer of warp, here on an ambassadorial mission from MTGS to provide clarification and rulings for the very strange Warp mechanic.

Here is the current reminder text for Warp:

(Rather than cast this card from your hand, you may pay COST and put it into your library face up beneath the top N cards. When it reaches the top, cast it for free.)

And here is our CR entry about Warp:

702.WRP. Warp

• 702.WRPa Warp is a keyword that represents a static ability that functions while the card with warp is in a player's hand. "Warp N -- [cost]" means "If you could begin to cast this card by putting it onto the stack from your hand and your library has at least N cards in it, you may pay [cost] and put it onto your library beneath the Nth card of your library. This card becomes warped. This action doesn't use the stack."
• 702.WRPb Cards that are put into a player's library by the warp ability are put into the library face up. This is an exception to rule 401.2. Players should keep warped cards in an orientation separate from the orientation of cards in a library that are not warped.
• 702.WRPc If a warped card would become the top card of a player's library, that player casts it without paying its mana cost instead. If that player can't, he or she turns the warped card face down instead and it becomes the top card of his or her library. It is no longer warped.
• 702.WRPd If a one-shot effect causes a player to reveal, shuffle, or randomize the order of a card or cards in a library, at least one of which is warped, each such card is turned face down, and then the cards are revealed, shuffled, or randomized.
• 702.WRPe If a continuous effect causes a warped card to be revealed, that card is both revealed and is face up. If the card somehow ceases to be revealed, the card remains face up.
• 702.WRPf If a one-shot effect causes an object to be put into the library "warped beneath the top N cards of [a player's] library," and that player's library has N or more cards in it, that player puts that card onto his or her library using the process described in rule 702.WRPb.

And here is our discussion thread.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

An ambassador from MTGS on Riptide? This is getting weird!

Anyway, I would change 702.WRPc to "If a warped card becomes the top card of a player's library, that player may cast that card without paying its mana cost. If he or she doesn't, turn the card face down. It is no longer warped."

• By turning the trigger to a may ability you avoid possible feel-bad scenario's (like with a card that says "deal 4 damage to target creature", and you being the only player with creatures).
• Casting the card is already a replacement effect. If the player doesn't cast it, it gets turned face-down, and then becomes the top card of your deck, because that is what it was about to do. You don't need to spell that part out if the player doesn't cast the card, because it is implied.
• I don't quite get why it was a replacement effect anyway. I didn't read the discussion on mtgs, so maybe there's a valid reason for this, but I would just make it trigger on becoming the top card of a player's library. I think this avoids difficult rules questions like, what happens to the card that is on top of your library as the warped card would become the top card. Is it frozen on top of your library while the ability is on the stack? Is it in your hand, but not really? What if there's two warped cards on top of each other, which one resolves first? I imagine there are some horrible humility-level headache inducing questions to be answered, why not keep it simple?

 

[Lucre]

I like the name warp wing and I like the name warp and I like library shit but beyond that I kinda dun like the mechanic at all.

Okay katona, it's all standard constructed power level stuff mate? So I shouldn't be putting in too many limited quality removal spells or fodder creatures?
You know I love hybrid symbols and cycling so I'm already pretty happy.

 

[MOON-E]

By turning the trigger to a may ability you avoid possible feel-bad scenario's (like with a card that says "deal 4 damage to target creature", and you being the only player with creatures).

IMO, this is gameplay that you as a designer actually want to happen. Imagine if I made a warp removal spell. If I warp that spell, my opponent has to choose to play their relevant creature they know will die, or hold it and wait out the kill spell. If my opponent chooses to wait, and warp is a may ability, I can opt to draw the card instead and continue to hold up the spell. Making the cast optional removes a lot of counter play, which is why I assume Suspend uses a similar template.

I don't quite get why it was a replacement effect anyway. I didn't read the discussion on mtgs, so maybe there's a valid reason for this, but I would just make it trigger on becoming the top card of a player's library. I think this avoids difficult rules questions like, what happens to the card that is on top of your library as the warped card would become the top card. Is it frozen on top of your library while the ability is on the stack? Is it in your hand, but not really? What if there's two warped cards on top of each other, which one resolves first? I imagine there are some horrible humility-level headache inducing questions to be answered, why not keep it simple?

If Warp triggered, it would mean multiple-card draw effects would not let you cast the spells. If I have a Warp second from the top, and I cast Divination, the replacement effect ensures that I will draw a card, cast the warp, then draw my second card. If Warp was a trigger, I would draw a card, trigger warp, then draw the warp with my warp trigger fizzling. We chose to go with the version that matched (what we feel would be) most player's assumptions and adding more interaction.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Maybe make it "if you would draw a warped card" then?

I don't know about the mandatory casting though. It's more interesting for your opponent, but can screw you over. Anyway, personal preference then, I guess.

 

[MOON-E]

Maybe make it "if you would draw a warped card" then?

Then you run into the card disadvantage problem (unless you also tack on "cast it, then draw another card", but is that a rabbit hole you want to go down? As you can tell, we've been pretty thorough in our exploration of options )

I don't know about the mandatory casting though. It's more interesting for your opponent, but can screw you over. Anyway, personal preference then, I guess.

It's important for designs to create interesting gameplay for both players. Again, suspend did the same thing and worked out just fine (mostly).

Also, sorry for pseudo hi-jacking this thread. Warp is clearly not intended to be the main topic. If you have any further questions or critiques of this mechanic I highly encourage you to continue the discussion in a way that doesn't distract as much from the original intention of this project (say, perhaps on the dedicated warp discussion thread over at MTGS).

 

[anotak]

my biggest problem with warp is still my biggest problem with warp: we can't use it on cockatrice. which is a pity, because it actually sounds interesting.

Okay katona, it's all standard constructed power level stuff mate? So I shouldn't be putting in too many limited quality removal spells or fodder creatures?

mostly not but you know as long as things aren't too out of wack people will draft what they can get

oh also the fixing lands i made have basic land types

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Also, sorry for pseudo hi-jacking this thread. ... I highly encourage you to continue the discussion in a way that doesn't distract as much from the original intention of this project ...

You clearly have no idea how this forum works

 

[MOON-E]

You clearly have no idea how this forum works

Trust me, I come from a long past of having Warp hijack every thread it shows up in

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Trust me, I come from a long past of having Warp hijack every thread it shows up in

Oh, I don't doubt that, but I'm guessing you don't come from a long past where hijacking threads is pretty much the norm

Eventually it'll wander back to the original topic. Or not. I think we had a green five drops thread once that turned into white four drops or something.

 

[Eric Chan]

An ambassador from MTGS on Riptide? This is getting weird!

I wonder if this is what planeswalkers feel like when they summon creatures. "Oh man that actually worked WOW there's a guy here now!"

 

[spicewitch]

Damn, I tried to summon some vampires and all I got are these FNM tykes!

 

[Lucre]

Reprints I'm thinking about right now: Stifle, Disdainful Stroke, Necromancy, Revilark, Shriekmaw, Appetite for Brains
maybe even procession I'm not sure yet.
I'm thinking about this as my power level kinda maybe sorta

Wanton Wyvern
Creature - Wyvern
Flying, haste
Cycling
5/3

(maybe has to attack all the time?)

Anguished Legion
Creature - Spirit
Flying
When Anguished Legion enters the battlefield return a creature card from your graveyard to your hand.
Cycling
5/5

Nuisance Bug
Creature - Insect
Flash
When Nuisance Bug enters the battlefield counter target activated or triggered ability unless it's controller pays .
2/1
(maybe pay 2?)

Great Reckoning
Sorcery
Bury all creature on the battlefield with converted mana cost x or less, where x is the amount of mana you payed to cast this.

 

[anotak]

the second one can probably do more or something if you're aiming for standard power level on a 6 drop

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Great Reckoning
Sorcery
Bury all creature on the battlefield with converted mana cost x or less, where x is the amount of mana you payed to cast this.

How much cooler would this be as

Revenge of the Wee
Sorcery
Destroy all creatures with converted mana cost X or more, where X is the amount of mana spent to cast this spell.

Sorry for hijacking your idea

 

[Lucre]

I felt like that would be too easy to manipulate to for 3 mana remove everything but your 4 drop etc. Plus I like to give white expensive sweepers and leave the middle and small ones to B/R

Work in progress:

Ghastly Mockery
Instant
Put a token copy of target creature card in your graveyard onto the battlefield under your control.

the second one can probably do more or something if you're aiming for standard power level on a 6 drop

I was an idiot and thinking about how it would be great in multiples, but now, if I have evoke and cycling going and a lot of grave themes (morbid anyone?) maybe this would just feel like a freaking 5/5 with a regrowth attached right? Like regrowing your shriekmaw sounds great.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

I felt like that would be too easy to manipulate to for 3 mana remove everything but your 4 drop etc. Plus I like to give white expensive sweepers and leave the middle and small ones to B/R

I think you should read my suggestion again. You are not going to remove everything but your 4 drop for 3 mana with my card In fact, it's pretty much the inverse of what red and black can remove at that mana cost. It's more akin to Retribtution of the Meek (though more powerful, but also more restrictive on the mana cost). Essentially I think I made an aggro-friendly Wrath based on your idea!

 

[Lucre]

I also just want you to be able to hit it always with stroke etc

Thunderjumble
Creature - Elemental
Haste, flying
When Thunderjumble dies it deals 4 damage to target creature or player.
Evoke
4/4

Too many 4 damage sorceries and hasted red fliers to include this old fave?

 

[silasw]

Whooaaaa, a lot of posts showed up out of nowhere. Do we have anyone else joining?

EDIT: I think Warp could work in this format. Just make the draw trigger work like Miracles, and don't bother putting the card face up. If we know there's only one copy of the card, then you can just say "The next time you draw a card named ~, you may reveal it and cast it without paying its mana cost."