General CBS

TrainmasterGT

TrainmasterGT

Onderzeeboot said:
Commander can be a can full of worms in the wrong playgroup, and the best way to play Magic in the right one. Of all the "mainstream" types of Magic I've tried, it probably has the widest... "fun band"*. That said, when it's good, it's really good :)

*Caveat: I've seen some competitive constructed players bask in the glory of their deck working one day, and utterly pissed when it didn't the next day, so there's that.
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I wholeheartedly agree with you about the "when it's good, it's really good" statement. The biggest issue I have with EDH is that when it's bad, it's miserable.

For example, I had a game at my LGS where someone soft locked everyone out of the game using Yosei, the Morning Star and a couple of repeatable clone spells. The rest of us kept drawing removal and trying to use it with the minimal amounts of mana we had, but after about an hour we realized we couldn't win.

That's obviously just a single example, but many more exist (looking at you, every Nekusar, the Mindrazer player ever). GRBS is rampant in EDH, and many of the worst offending players usually have about a million ways to protect their BS from interaction.
 
CaptnIrony

CaptnIrony

TrainmasterGT said:
I wholeheartedly agree with you about the "when it's good, it's really good" statement. The biggest issue I have with EDH is that when it's bad, it's miserable.

For example, I had a game at my LGS where someone soft locked everyone out of the game using Yosei, the Morning Star and a couple of repeatable clone spells. The rest of us kept drawing removal and trying to use it with the minimal amounts of mana we had, but after about an hour we realized we couldn't win.

That's obviously just a single example, but many more exist (looking at you, every Nekusar, the Mindrazer player ever). GRBS is rampant in EDH, and many of the worst offending players usually have about a million ways to protect their BS from interaction.
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I seem to be in the minority, but EDH going downhill and turning into GRBS started when wizards started trying to put out cards for it.
 
vennythekid

vennythekid

My main complaint with the format, agreeing with Onder, is that it's so difficult to get several people to all agree on what's "fun" about a game of commander. If you love janky combo brews, and your buddy hates people who take 5 minute turns, its not fun. If you hate getting rushed by creatures, I guess you and your Slivers friend aren't gonna enjoy it. Is it demoralizing to never have anything stick to a board due to wraths? Guess Ms. Esper isn't invited to play anymore.

There's so many of these play-patterns that can "ruin" any given game for any given player, that its hard to strike a balance. And then, assuming you have a stable playgroup, if you can get people to agree to things like "no counterspells" or some such, then other decks take advantage of the missing game fundamentals and then people get tired of them.

In my experience, these "truces" lead to everyone durdling, trying not to offend anyone, until 3 hours later someone somewhere decides to end the game out of boredom or exasperation. Unsatisfying to win, unsatisfying to lose.
 
Onderzeeboot

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
See, I'm a born optimist, so while I could think of some GRBS examples (and indeed, there is one particular example I do like to bring up every now and then, but it's more about how hypocritical some players can get in a multiplayer game), I prefer to remember the good games (of which there have been many more). Because in what other format can I win with 20+ 16/16 wolves, courtesy of Wort, the Raidmother copying ramp spells, which let me multikick Wolfbriar Elemental
 
TrainmasterGT

TrainmasterGT

CaptnIrony said:
I seem to be in the minority, but EDH going downhill and turning into GRBS started when wizards started trying to put out cards for it.
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You're not wrong. The more General-Focused GRBS is mostly the fault of the EDH products (Stuff like Edgar, Atraxa Nekusar, Merin to a lesser extent). However, I think a number of issues are caused by just the way the format works in general. After all, we are talking about a format where Sylvan Primordial is good enough to be banned...

It's way easier to assemble more powerful, albeit clunkier, combos due to the slow play of the format.
 
CaptnIrony

CaptnIrony

TrainmasterGT said:
You're not wrong. The more General-Focused GRBS is mostly the fault of the EDH products (Stuff like Edgar, Atraxa Nekusar, Merin to a lesser extent). However, I think a number of issues are caused by just the way the format works in general. After all, we are talking about a format where Sylvan Primordial is good enough to be banned...

It's way easier to assemble more powerful, albeit clunkier, combos due to the slow play of the format.
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I was very involved in EDH and quite vocal about my opinions. IMO, Sylvan Primordial also falls in the category of "cards WotC created for EDH" and ended up making it worse. To my knowledge, the primordials (unlike the titans) never saw widespread competitive play anywhere. They, and other cards like them, existed solely to provide higher impact higher mana cards. Cyclonic Rift, IMO, also falls in the category. The problem _is_ that they were high impact. Literally GRBS. The format is/was indeed slow enough so that people can play 7 mana spells consistently. And this was balanced. High costed cards are rarer (few per set), often we played old ones where the power level wasn't quite there, but we still did cool stuff with it. Similar to how playing limited is fun despite the fact that you could play higher power level constructed decks instead. The combos and cards were, as you said, clunkier, and while they were more powerful, they were less efficient (think 3 combined power/toughness at 1 mana is common, but 9 at 3 is not). This lead to formats where the threats were weak but diverse, the answers were strong. WotC then realised that these poor EDH players were playing with cards that weren't "splashy" enough. Duplicant is cool, you know, but you know what is cooler? Bane of Progress. Bigger, STRONGER, MORE EFFICIENT cards. this is what lead to those 7 mana 6/8 7 for 1s...

Btw, for those examples, I used scryfall to search for cards of cmc 6 first printed in 2003 and 2013 sorted by edhrec rank, and picked the first creature. I feel like they ruined EDH by trying to make it powermax. Try it:

2013: https://scryfall.com/search?q=date%3A2013+cmc%3D6+-is%3Areprint+t%3Acreature&unique=cards&as=grid&order=edhrec

2008: https://scryfall.com/search?q=date:2008 cmc=6 -is:reprint t:creature&unique=cards&as=grid&order=edhrec

2003: https://scryfall.com/search?q=date:2003 cmc=6 -is:reprint t:creature&unique=cards&as=grid&order=edhrec
 
Onderzeeboot

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
I feel the commander product line also added a lot of very cool cards to the format, and I rather WotC be pushing the envelope and sometimes missing the mark than them not trying out anything new at all. Problematic cards can be dealt with through the banlist, mutual agreement with your playgroup, or simply ganging up on the offending player. It is, after all, a multiplayer format, so if you play something to egregiously powerful, people will come for you.
 
shamizy

shamizy

Aside from Cube and retail Limited, EDH is my preferred way to play Magic. It's pretty much the only format that still gives me the sense of discovery and wonder with wacky card combinations from when I started playing the game. It's nice to look at a new card and think whoa, that looks fun, how do I break this? What weird combination can I come up with? The only issue with the format is that regulation is tough to pull off since it's the most casual and social format of Magic that isn't kitchen table. People also have different objectives when playing the game, not just simply winning in the most efficient manner possible. Sometimes it's just about doing cool shit you can't do elsewhere. Winning is nice, but that's not my goal when playing EDH. I mostly just want to have fun doing cool stuff.

It's very difficult to balance, however, unless you have a dedicated playgroup that has loosely established guidelines of how you want to play. I'm not trying to shuffle up this 99 card monstrosity and play a 3 minute game where someone combos off after tutoring for pieces. But I'm also not trying to durdle for 4 hours setting up some wonky contraption and not making any dent in gameplay.
 
sigh

sigh

Reflecting a little, I have to say that my best experiences have been with good simple kitchen-table magic. I play with a couple coworkers on occasion and we're slinging some of the jankiest shit, but it's no-expectation and entirely social. Usually over lunch.

We're talking like OG Force of Nature in this, the year of our lord 2019. It's very fun
 
CaptnIrony

CaptnIrony

shamizy said:
I'm also not trying to durdle for 4 hours setting up some wonky contraption and not making any dent in gameplay.
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TrainmasterGT

TrainmasterGT

Sorry to derail this wonderful conversation about the 3rd best highlander format, but look at this:
PewDiePie just played magic! His video already has more views than all but 5 of TCC's videos! I think this could be really good for the game, PewDiePie videos usually get at least 5 million viewers.

I just hope this doesn't turn into another crappybeardgate situation where WOTC tries to ban PewDiePie because of his past (unwarranted) controversies. I don't think they're stupid enough to do that, but then again they won't reprint the Enemy Colored Fetch Lands, so they might.

I really hope they won't though. Pewds was a driving catalyst in the cross of many games into the main stream, such as Five Nights at Freddy's.
 
CaptnIrony

CaptnIrony

Miasmir said:
I mean... it's not financially a good idea for Wizards to distance themselves from such a popular streamer. They probably won't, and I don't blame them.

I don't intend to get into politics here but I have some opinions.
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I don't know who PewDiePie is, but clicking the video I realised I expected Phillip DeFranco.

EDIT: I have questions that may devolve into battles of opinions.
 
TrainmasterGT

TrainmasterGT

Miasmir said:
I mean... it's not financially a good idea for Wizards to distance themselves from such a popular streamer. They probably won't, and I don't blame them.

I don't intend to get into politics here but I have some opinions.
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I wholeheartedly agree with you. I also don't want to get into a political argument, nor was that the point of the post. I just think this video is good for the game.

CaptnIrony said:
I don't know who PewDiePie is, but clicking the video I realised I expected Phillip DeFranco.

EDIT: I have questions that may devolve into battles of opinions.
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We can DM about it if you want.
 
Onderzeeboot

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
CaptnIrony said:
First real game, he plays a basic land on turn 1, with not turn 1 plays, while having shocks in hand. Is that worth the bluff?
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That was the only real fumble I spotted though, he made some really good calls later in the video, and playing while streaming is hard regardless. I know our own Aoret brought that up once, when he started streaming. I think PewDiePie did a good job playing the deck all in all. Doesn't mean I like his YouTube persona though :)
 
CaptnIrony

CaptnIrony

Onderzeeboot said:
That was the only real fumble I spotted though, he made some really good calls later in the video, and playing while streaming is hard regardless. I know our own Aoret brought that up once, when he started streaming. I think PewDiePie did a good job playing the deck all in all. Doesn't mean I like his YouTube persona though :)
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Game two, same thing with his first land, he played the one that enabled less turn 2 plays if he drew a plains, which again was the mountain instead of the tap land.

Playing while recording is also hard. I've recorded matches I've not posted on Arena, and I've done stuff like attacking 2/2s into 2/3s and whatnot... for shame.
 
Onderzeeboot

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
CaptnIrony said:
Game two, same thing with his first land, he played the one that enabled less turn 2 plays if he drew a plains, which again was the mountain instead of the tap land.

Playing while recording is also hard. I've recorded matches I've not posted on Arena, and I've done stuff like attacking 2/2s into 2/3s and whatnot... for shame.
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Oh yeah, for sure, I counted those as the same fumble, should have been clearer about that :) But yeah, no reason to be ashamed there, it is hard to play a game that requires a decent amount of brainpower and entertain an audience at the same time. Kudos to those who do that successfully!
 
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