General CFB Design Contest Final Vote
- Thread starter Jason Waddell
- Start date
TOO SOON Im just really disappointed to live in the state that I do right now but don't want to bring up politics on a Magic forum.
Definitely Shadow Servant. Its a card I would love to cube. Its so perfect, Ninjutsu cost and all, I don't even have a suggestion to improve it.
Priest is close but
for the activation? I think the power of flashback on a stick is being undervalued here. Giving burn spells wither is neat but feels like it will rarely matter much in practice since you have a lot of cases of burn spell + combat damage being enough in one turn anyway. Maybe something like to activate and deathtouch over wither, and I would have been on board.
Stoneforge Foundry just isn't a card I would cube. The idea is nice but I need my WR 4 drop that does nothing until future turns to be much more explosive. This takes far too many turns and far too much mana to really get off the ground. I also gutted my cube's artifact subtheme due to being too parasitic so I'm probs biased against it now. Still, this card could cost like and not randomly be legendary and I would be much more interested.
Priest is close but
for the activation? I think the power of flashback on a stick is being undervalued here. Giving burn spells wither is neat but feels like it will rarely matter much in practice since you have a lot of cases of burn spell + combat damage being enough in one turn anyway. Maybe something like to activate and deathtouch over wither, and I would have been on board.Stoneforge Foundry just isn't a card I would cube. The idea is nice but I need my WR 4 drop that does nothing until future turns to be much more explosive. This takes far too many turns and far too much mana to really get off the ground. I also gutted my cube's artifact subtheme due to being too parasitic so I'm probs biased against it now. Still, this card could cost like
and not randomly be legendary and I would be much more interested.
I'm very impressed that Experiment Two is not in here. It feels like a card that everyone is already just waiting to be released, because it was so simple and obvious.
Personally, I wouldn't be excited about including any of the finalists in my lists. They all feel clunky somehow.
Shadow Servant feels very heartless and the two abilities don't even work with each other. It was made to synergize with everything but itself, and fit perfectly in an archetype that doesn't need any more cards to be supported.
The Priest is a really weird "creatue". It might as well only have the last ability. It is definitely powerful and the one that I'd be more inclined to consider for my list. Fits aggressive strategies as he can flashback early burn, and fits control strategies that just need to flashback some rmovals to buy time. Wither for spells is nice, but the chances of being relevant are very low.
Given that Stoneforge Foundry has a common symbol, I believe it would be a really great card for a pauper cube. With that said, the card feels like it fits all other rarities better, and as a golden card, it doesn't really pull me towards RW or makes me want to splash it. Best case scenario would be to put this side-to-side with Trading Post. That'd be awesome, but RW artifact control doesn't really have much support in general, I guess.
Experiment Two might be the 4th place in the pools, but it will forever be number 1 in my heart <3
Personally, I wouldn't be excited about including any of the finalists in my lists. They all feel clunky somehow.
Shadow Servant feels very heartless and the two abilities don't even work with each other. It was made to synergize with everything but itself, and fit perfectly in an archetype that doesn't need any more cards to be supported.
The Priest is a really weird "creatue". It might as well only have the last ability. It is definitely powerful and the one that I'd be more inclined to consider for my list. Fits aggressive strategies as he can flashback early burn, and fits control strategies that just need to flashback some rmovals to buy time. Wither for spells is nice, but the chances of being relevant are very low.
Given that Stoneforge Foundry has a common symbol, I believe it would be a really great card for a pauper cube. With that said, the card feels like it fits all other rarities better, and as a golden card, it doesn't really pull me towards RW or makes me want to splash it. Best case scenario would be to put this side-to-side with Trading Post. That'd be awesome, but RW artifact control doesn't really have much support in general, I guess.
Experiment Two might be the 4th place in the pools, but it will forever be number 1 in my heart <3
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
As debated in the cast, Experiment Two has some pretty serious grokkability issues. I like the card, but the counterintuitive interaction between both keywords is a bit of a let-down for me. I wanted to try the finalists out to see how they play to determine my vote, so I'll see if I have some time for that tonight. If not I guess I'll just stay with my previous pick, Priest of the Cursed Flame still looks awesome!
I've loved the Priest ever since I first saw it, voted for it each time. Wither is cool, it's a human, and the flashback is exactly what I'd want in the decks that I'd be playing him in. Early pressure with the body, some late-game reach by buying back burn spells or removal to clear the way. I would love it if the flashback was 1R however, 2R is such a steep tax to replay a spell.
Laz
Developer
It really isn't...
Great minds and all that...
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/...peasant-pauper-print-this-wizards?comment=391
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/...peasant-pauper-print-this-wizards?comment=391
Voting for the concept and not necessarily the hard numbers
I lovesoulfire grand master so priest gets my vote again.
I just really don't need another card like shadow servant, and its list of decks that want it is particularly narrow for this contest.
Stoneforge Foundry is a good concept but feels like it needs a very particular environment to be multi-archetype. It seems insane good/fun IN that environment, but I'd never play or design it- this just isn't the lump of sugar for my cup of tea.
I lovesoulfire grand master so priest gets my vote again.
I just really don't need another card like shadow servant, and its list of decks that want it is particularly narrow for this contest.
Stoneforge Foundry is a good concept but feels like it needs a very particular environment to be multi-archetype. It seems insane good/fun IN that environment, but I'd never play or design it- this just isn't the lump of sugar for my cup of tea.
I feel like this contest needed more context to help with choosing the card. What kind of cube environment would the card be going into? Prioritize creativity/cohesiveness/balance? How much support do we assume? (for instance, there was a constellation card in the first round of voting). Do we vote for the card as is, or do we vote for the idea and assume the numbers would be tested/adjusted?
For reference, stoneforge foundry is my favorite design of the 3, but as is, it probably isn't good enough to make the cut in a lot of cubes. I still voted for it because I don't find priest of the cursed flame very creative (color shifted soulfire grandmaster, but much stronger). And Shadow Servant feels like it would lead to too many feel bad results. Cast directly, it takes a several sac's (3?) to be good which is no small cost (unless you have the gravecrawler/bloodsoaked engine already turned on). Ninjitsu'd out, it reads "sacrifice your board to kill your opponent unless they have instant speed removal." Neither of these seem like great play dynamics.
For reference, stoneforge foundry is my favorite design of the 3, but as is, it probably isn't good enough to make the cut in a lot of cubes. I still voted for it because I don't find priest of the cursed flame very creative (color shifted soulfire grandmaster, but much stronger). And Shadow Servant feels like it would lead to too many feel bad results. Cast directly, it takes a several sac's (3?) to be good which is no small cost (unless you have the gravecrawler/bloodsoaked engine already turned on). Ninjitsu'd out, it reads "sacrifice your board to kill your opponent unless they have instant speed removal." Neither of these seem like great play dynamics.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Alas, no time to test. Priest of the Cursed Flame it is! Shadow Servant seems a bit too "Oops I killed you" for my liking. Basically it's a black crossover between Carrion Feeder and Lava Axe. Stoneforge Foundry interests me greatly, because I find it really hard to gauge how strong that card is. It might do absolutely nothing in most games, or it might completely take over a long game. I don't know! And that is kinda exciting, isn't it? PoCF, however, stole my heart right away. It looks powerful, but surprisingly balanced. Of the three, it looks like it has the most lines of play too it, and it would be the card I would be excited for in my first pack of a draft!
Regarding specific design constraints set aside in the original article:
"Specifically, I am looking for cards that:
"Uh... I don't really care. Whatever is most fun for you. I don't usually spend much time looking at custom cards, so it'll probably be new to me"
Question regarding what power level to aim for wasn't really answered. I haven't had a chance to listen to the card discussion stream, so no idea what's said there. I will say that this is a cube card design thread, not cube card development thread, so mana costs probably shouldn't matter as much as evaluating how it fits into an environment, what it provides, etc. Cost isn't heavily considered during design at WotC, so it seems reasonable to focus less on it here.
My vote was for shadow servant. Why? Because it is definitely independently playable. It's basically an upgrade to bloodthrone vampire because the counters stay around, and so perfectly slots into a black 2cmc slot in place of the vamp. Beyond being super decent as vamp+, it has some super cool tricks. Tricks such as surprise lava axe (basically ninjitsu gob bombardment, and we are ok with bombardment) and bouncing token makers, allowing a recycle of the etb for more fodder. Pia and Kiran Nalaar and Whirler Rogue come to mind first. The rogue can even make itself unblockable for easy ninjitsu-ing.
So:
Playable = check
Theme Synergy = check (RB sac, UB sac, Bx tokens, Junk value - voice, finks, etc, GB Rock... all cube dependent of course)
For me both this and the priest work very well, I just find Shadow Servant to be much cleaner, and it just so perfectly slots into what these non-singleton cubes want to be doing already (with the recursive stuff)
"Specifically, I am looking for cards that:
- are independently playable
- have synergies with one or more cube themes or subthemes"
"Uh... I don't really care. Whatever is most fun for you. I don't usually spend much time looking at custom cards, so it'll probably be new to me"
Question regarding what power level to aim for wasn't really answered. I haven't had a chance to listen to the card discussion stream, so no idea what's said there. I will say that this is a cube card design thread, not cube card development thread, so mana costs probably shouldn't matter as much as evaluating how it fits into an environment, what it provides, etc. Cost isn't heavily considered during design at WotC, so it seems reasonable to focus less on it here.
My vote was for shadow servant. Why? Because it is definitely independently playable. It's basically an upgrade to bloodthrone vampire because the counters stay around, and so perfectly slots into a black 2cmc slot in place of the vamp. Beyond being super decent as vamp+, it has some super cool tricks. Tricks such as surprise lava axe (basically ninjitsu gob bombardment, and we are ok with bombardment) and bouncing token makers, allowing a recycle of the etb for more fodder. Pia and Kiran Nalaar and Whirler Rogue come to mind first. The rogue can even make itself unblockable for easy ninjitsu-ing.
So:
Playable = check
Theme Synergy = check (RB sac, UB sac, Bx tokens, Junk value - voice, finks, etc, GB Rock... all cube dependent of course)
For me both this and the priest work very well, I just find Shadow Servant to be much cleaner, and it just so perfectly slots into what these non-singleton cubes want to be doing already (with the recursive stuff)
Also I think there's might be some issues in power evaluation of the Priest of Cursed Flame. Recurring all your removal, draws, etc. is absurdly strong. Soulfire Grand Master has to have the cards in your hand when you use it. Priest can come down T8 and immediately start re-using all the Doom Blades, Thirst for Knowledges, Arc Trails, Pulse of Murasas, and on and on that you've already used once. It's a bear with a reusable recoup for sorceries and instants. That's soooo good.
But, it is a very good card for the controlling side of life and fits very well to the themes of this contest. Work out the pricing a little, and it'd be great in a lot of cubes. As is, it seems like it can provide so so much extra value for one card.
But, it is a very good card for the controlling side of life and fits very well to the themes of this contest. Work out the pricing a little, and it'd be great in a lot of cubes. As is, it seems like it can provide so so much extra value for one card.
Priest is Probably better than soulfire, and the ability should probably cost 2u/R U/r. But its power is very environment sensitive. Would it be good in legacy or modern? Maybe, but probably not great. Its been fine in my faster environment with careful burn spell selection. Powerful, but not exceedingly so.
That said, it may very well be broken in half in your average cube.
I do like the deathtouch idea. Would make it even more powerful, though
That said, it may very well be broken in half in your average cube.
I do like the deathtouch idea. Would make it even more powerful, though
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Yeah, more specific criteria would be good.
I went with shadow servant because its a great lower power card from my perspective. Its a modal card that fits a spot on blacks curve that very badly needs filling, can block, and is one of a small subset of sac outlets that are actually good. Ninjutsu is possibly wizards most fun mechanic, and in this setting, allows for a bunch of sweet techy plays.
The ability to ninjutsu makes the card special, rather than just being a solid role player: it encourages players to engineer turns in a way that requires them to carefully balance risk vs. reward, which is a great game play dynamic.
Priest of the cursed flame seems like a cool card, and I like the wither on spells, but it just seems like a lot of raw power on an efficient body. However, I could see the contest criteria being such where that would be sufficient.
The foundry is a little baffling to me, as it seems like a durdly midrange card that produces aggro artifacts.
I feel shadow servant should win, as it accomplishes more in its respective design space than priest of the cursed flame.
I went with shadow servant because its a great lower power card from my perspective. Its a modal card that fits a spot on blacks curve that very badly needs filling, can block, and is one of a small subset of sac outlets that are actually good. Ninjutsu is possibly wizards most fun mechanic, and in this setting, allows for a bunch of sweet techy plays.
The ability to ninjutsu makes the card special, rather than just being a solid role player: it encourages players to engineer turns in a way that requires them to carefully balance risk vs. reward, which is a great game play dynamic.
Priest of the cursed flame seems like a cool card, and I like the wither on spells, but it just seems like a lot of raw power on an efficient body. However, I could see the contest criteria being such where that would be sufficient.
The foundry is a little baffling to me, as it seems like a durdly midrange card that produces aggro artifacts.
I feel shadow servant should win, as it accomplishes more in its respective design space than priest of the cursed flame.
I haven't seen the cast yet, but if grokkability is a concern for a card designed for cube, I'm eager to watch it and see the discussion, because (especially in this case) it sons like a big non-issue.As debated in the cast, Experiment Two has some pretty serious grokkability issues. I like the card, but the counterintuitive interaction between both keywords is a bit of a let-down for me. I wanted to try the finalists out to see how they play to determine my vote, so I'll see if I have some time for that tonight. If not I guess I'll just stay with my previous pick, Priest of the Cursed Flame still looks awesome!
If you or anyone else wants to come up with a base set of criteria, I'd be willing to use / tweak them for the next contest. The response to this contest was pretty great, so if people have ideas, I'd be willing to run another one starting next week.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Evolve and graft don't work together as neatly as you might think, because evolve has an intervening if clause. For example, if you cast a 2/2 into Experiment Two, evolve won't trigger, but graft will. So you move a +1/+1 counter from Experiment Two onto the 1/1 (making it a 3/3 and Experiment Two a 1/1), but you won't get to put a new counter on Experiment Two because evolve didn't trigger in the first place because at the time that trigger would go onto the stack, both creatures are still 2/2's. In short: you can't use graft to make evolve trigger, and a substantial percentage of players gets that wrong. Of course you can explain that to your players, but I, for one, like it when cards are intuitively played correctly by my players, and that's certainly something I figured in when choosing a favorite.
This, by the way, says nothing of the gameplay value of Experiment Two. I can imagine it's a hoot to play with.
I'm still going to watch the cast to see people's thoughts, but I've never been confused by know how both of the abilities work. I imagine that unless you have a new-players-only or a once-every-two-months-player playgroup, that shouldn't be a problem. It's OK to make decisions that would alleviate gameplay in these type of playgroups, but putting a player in a bubble and protecting them from learning the rules kind of beats the purpose, especially if you expect your player base to keep invested in the game in the long run. If that is your case, then it is understandable, but personally I can't think of a use-case that wouldn't lead to an easily solvable situation.
But I mean, if you still like other cards better or if your playgroup is more casual, that is fine. Context is an essential part in any game design decision, and every card fits a niche context better. For instance:
• I would personally auto-include Stoneforge Foundry in any pauper cube I'd make because it looks like it can be so much fun.
• In counterpart, for powermax cubes, Priest fits adds so much value with just a single bolt in the yard that it fits right in. Heck, I can even see this card being feature as #1 cube card in the set by wtwlf at MtG:Salvation.
• On the other hand, If you are breaking singleton and you still believe that Gravecrawler.dec needs more tools in mono-black for some reason, Shadow Servant is a decent card.
Overall, disconsidering any cube construction rules, playgroup, or synergies that you are already designing around, you know what card is really cool all on its own? Experiment Two. The card fits the already popular Jund/The Rock midrange decks and the GW good stuff that are actually quite easy to autopilot-draft in the average cube, plus it supports fringe archetypes like Stompy and green aggro (that every new cuber tries to cater to in a way or another), and even fits a possible counters-matters theme (be it like the Hardened Scales deck in standard, or something more like the Cytoplast Root-kin deck from Old Ravnica Standard, maybe with Thrummingbirds for extra interactions). The card even comboes with Kitchen Finks, if it has only one counter and you have a sacrifice engine (and you can even make it mono-green with Blasting Station). It is not even a threat by itself: No removal protection, no recursion, no card-advantage. Just a somewhat fair bear that does cool stuff™, rewards you for doing things you should be doing (curving out, playing creatures) and supports every green archetype outside of Eureka/Channel-and-Tell and maybe Ramp.
My post won't change anything in the pools, but it is a real shame that a card that fits the spirit of the Riptide Lab mentality so well is not even in the finals. It is also ironic that it got outclassed by splashier, more powerful cards.
Edit: wow, posting from a tablet makes you post a very badly formatted post. I'll go edit it and make more readable when I get to my computer.
EDIT: Much better!
Dom Harvey
Contributor
Even when the evolve/graft interaction causes no lasting confusion, it still leads to feelings of disappointment: when I see a card like that, I assume and hope that the abilities work together that way, so I have to wrap my head around the rules only to find the card is weaker than I thought.
Experiment two isn't a card I can get behind because of how unintuitive it is. My playgroup would hate me if I showed up with custom cards that required intricate rules knowledge or an explanation about how its abilities don't actually work together. If I did proxy up the card, I would add extra reminder text to explain the interaction. Its basically a green Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit with a rules nightmare laid on top.
I don't have the playtest data from this card to know how well it was received and how much of these feelings of disappointment were real or just based on a bunch of other factors. I don't know if you played in a draft with this card, so I guess we would need Chris to bring his perspective. From what I've seen in the video, Chris says that newer players have had issues with these two mechanics, and Jason gets confused by thinking of how to combo with Kitchen Finks, but I really don't know what to take out of it in a vacuum.
In my own experience, I participated in a Build-your-Own draft where two players designed this same card independently (I did it as a 3/3 for 1GG, someone else did it as 2/2 for UG). From what I gathered, we had some very inexperient players (I've been told that one of the players was confused by the term 'permanent' in our card review round, for example), but no issues came up with these cards and they were played as intended.
Our experiences might vary greatly, especially considering that the play contexts are very different, but I can't help but wonder if this sense of confusion doesn't just comes from people watching the video and the first thing mentioned was this problem. Even Chris says that after telling players how Evolve works, the rules issues are fairly minor. I've played commanders with new players and helped running the Gatecrash prerelease, so I know the questions that come up because of Evolve are always numerous because the mechanic is what it is. It is always the same issue with learning that the trigger checks twice, and you never get the same question after you answer it once.
Now let's imagine that the players still get salty and tilting after discovering how the card actually works during gameplay:
• It is not a in-your-face powerful card, and it will very hardly signal players that it is a high pick, so the chances of it being picked over an important card is fairly low.
• It is a 2-drop that depends on other creatures to work. Considering that your cube is somewhat balanced, a missed +1/+1 counter turn three or four should still leave you room to win the game. This card wasn't going to win the game by itself anyways, and even trying to interact with it in a wrong way is advancing your board position.
• Worst case is if the issue happens repeatedly, none of the players notice, and someone wins or loses the game with it. This can very well happen, just as any other rule interpretation issue in Magic. Don't think there is anything to be done in this case.
Even in the worst case scenario, I don't believe that this card is any worse then any of the finalists. Unless you have tilted 4+ of your regular players with these rules issues, it will still do more good than harm to your cube format.
(I keep writing these bibles here. Considering that the coolest discussions in this forum come out of people disagreeing in the comments, I'm fine with that
)My personal thoughts:
1. About my submission:
Honestly, I'm really happy that people found Stoneforge Foundry cool and/or interesting. It was an idea I've had for a while that I'd never seen done on a Magic card before. Chris Taylor laid it out perfectly in the Podcast when he said it was a bizarre mix between Trading Post and Assemble the Legion (which happen to be two of my all-time favorite Magic cards), providing synergies for both cards as well as others. I was hoping to hit a spot between a bunch of synergies, where the drafters can use the card creatively in many different ways to diverse effects, while maintaining some design simplicity. Moving forward, I think the design needs a mana cost adjustment somewhere, either in the cost or the activation, to make it playable in Riptide-style lists. Obviously I think it's fine in lower-powered lists. Translation: I have no idea if this card is actually good or not.
2.
In terms of the contest, I liked Shadow Servant and Experiment Two a lot. I love durdly engine cards. Experiment Two is that engine card that fits in aggressive creature decks, without being overbearing or unkillable. Shadow Servant looks like it would be a lot of fun to play, and might even be an upgrade to Falkenrath Aristocrat for closing out a game. I think Priest of the Cursed Flame is a little too overbearing. It certainly is a strong card, and I thing Wither is super cool on instants and sorceries, as it makes burn really, really good removal for breaking through walls with aggro creatures. I think the flashback ability is too much for a card that is so good late game, as it lets a strong early-game 2/2 become a card advantage monster, easily rebuying removal late game.
Overall, this contest has been a lot of fun, and I've enjoyed reading submissions and discussion over them as well!
1. About my submission:
Honestly, I'm really happy that people found Stoneforge Foundry cool and/or interesting. It was an idea I've had for a while that I'd never seen done on a Magic card before. Chris Taylor laid it out perfectly in the Podcast when he said it was a bizarre mix between Trading Post and Assemble the Legion (which happen to be two of my all-time favorite Magic cards), providing synergies for both cards as well as others. I was hoping to hit a spot between a bunch of synergies, where the drafters can use the card creatively in many different ways to diverse effects, while maintaining some design simplicity. Moving forward, I think the design needs a mana cost adjustment somewhere, either in the cost or the activation, to make it playable in Riptide-style lists. Obviously I think it's fine in lower-powered lists. Translation: I have no idea if this card is actually good or not.
2.
In terms of the contest, I liked Shadow Servant and Experiment Two a lot. I love durdly engine cards. Experiment Two is that engine card that fits in aggressive creature decks, without being overbearing or unkillable. Shadow Servant looks like it would be a lot of fun to play, and might even be an upgrade to Falkenrath Aristocrat for closing out a game. I think Priest of the Cursed Flame is a little too overbearing. It certainly is a strong card, and I thing Wither is super cool on instants and sorceries, as it makes burn really, really good removal for breaking through walls with aggro creatures. I think the flashback ability is too much for a card that is so good late game, as it lets a strong early-game 2/2 become a card advantage monster, easily rebuying removal late game.
Overall, this contest has been a lot of fun, and I've enjoyed reading submissions and discussion over them as well!