General CFB Design Contest Final Vote

Which card do you think should win the contest?

  • Shadow Servant

    Votes: 12 37.5%
  • Priest of the Cursed Flame

    Votes: 13 40.6%
  • Stoneforge Foundry

    Votes: 7 21.9%

  • Total voters
    32
  • Poll closed .
The short version on Experiment Two is that it's on the players to know how triggered abilities work, and in this case it's fairly basic stuff. It might be problematic once if you cube with people who have never played magic before, or have and just never learned the rules, but it will cause them to learn the relevant rules, and then they'll be better off than if they had kept not knowing anything.

As for Priest, it's really not balanced. SGM is okay because you have to pay 4 extra mana the first time you're casting the spell, which means it's way below curve. With Priest, you can run out all your spells as soon as you want to, and later get them back for 3 mana each once it's the late game and you have mana to spare. That's going to be a big difference in practice.
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
I don't have the playtest data from this card to know how well it was received and how much of these feelings of disappointment were real or just based on a bunch of other factors. I don't know if you played in a draft with this card, so I guess we would need Chris to bring his perspective. From what I've seen in the video, Chris says that newer players have had issues with these two mechanics, and Jason gets confused by thinking of how to combo with Kitchen Finks, but I really don't know what to take out of it in a vacuum.

In my own experience, I participated in a Build-your-Own draft where two players designed this same card independently (I did it as a 3/3 for 1GG, someone else did it as 2/2 for UG). From what I gathered, we had some very inexperient players (I've been told that one of the players was confused by the term 'permanent' in our card review round, for example), but no issues came up with these cards and they were played as intended.

Our experiences might vary greatly, especially considering that the play contexts are very different, but I can't help but wonder if this sense of confusion doesn't just comes from people watching the video and the first thing mentioned was this problem. Even Chris says that after telling players how Evolve works, the rules issues are fairly minor. I've played commanders with new players and helped running the Gatecrash prerelease, so I know the questions that come up because of Evolve are always numerous because the mechanic is what it is. It is always the same issue with learning that the trigger checks twice, and you never get the same question after you answer it once.

Now let's imagine that the players still get salty and tilting after discovering how the card actually works during gameplay:
• It is not a in-your-face powerful card, and it will very hardly signal players that it is a high pick, so the chances of it being picked over an important card is fairly low.
• It is a 2-drop that depends on other creatures to work. Considering that your cube is somewhat balanced, a missed +1/+1 counter turn three or four should still leave you room to win the game. This card wasn't going to win the game by itself anyways, and even trying to interact with it in a wrong way is advancing your board position.
• Worst case is if the issue happens repeatedly, none of the players notice, and someone wins or loses the game with it. This can very well happen, just as any other rule interpretation issue in Magic. Don't think there is anything to be done in this case.
Even in the worst case scenario, I don't believe that this card is any worse then any of the finalists. Unless you have tilted 4+ of your regular players with these rules issues, it will still do more good than harm to your cube format.

(I keep writing these bibles here. Considering that the coolest discussions in this forum come out of people disagreeing in the comments, I'm fine with that :p)

No please do continue, I'm loving this shit :p

Part of me wonders how much the trading post vibe is only coming from the fact that foundry is a 4cc artifact with a {1}{T} ability, while being otherwise unrelated. Kind of like saying how Jitte reminds me of Isochron Secpter because they fit the same spot on the curve.
 
I will definitely join the next contest aswell and put more effort into it so i can redeem myself as a new custom card designer :) (valris the 1UB memory overload guy was my doing)
 
You'll never ever see something like Experiment 2 printed by WotC because of limited, new players, etc etc precisely because of the amount of mental gymnastics needed to grok it. The abilities just naturally don't mesh very cleanly. Honestly, it's hard to make a card that's any cleaner for the same concept. I mean, it's hard to beat the number of rules words (2), but the large blocks of reminder text are so needed for these two abilities in particular they basically are rules text, I guess.

Anyway, If I were to fiddle around with the concept, I'd make it a spike with evolve:
Experiment B.jpg

Honestly though, Experiment 2 is perfectly cubable as is. The unintuitive nature of the two abilities and the existence of Anafenza kept me from voting for it, but I wouldn't be sad if I was playing in a cube with it.

plsy4mne is spot on for priest. I think the ability has to be 4 or 5 mana to make it closer to balanced. And/or have some downside rider like "You lose life equal to it's cmc" at the end.
 
Part of me wonders how much the trading post vibe is only coming from the fact that foundry is a 4cc artifact with a {1}{T} ability, while being otherwise unrelated. Kind of like saying how Jitte reminds me of Isochron Secpter because they fit the same spot on the curve.

I think it feels a lot like Trading Post because it is a card that works well going into the late game and is more of an engine-type card than a role player, but instead of making goats to block indefinitelly, it makes 2/1 haste hexproof creatures that need another creature and mana to attack. I also think the comparison with Assemble the Legion is spot on. The foundry build a huge amount of inevitability over the turns.


I still won't buy this "too complicated" thing. You guys can redesign all you want, Experiment Two is still the perfect card to print as a rare for Return to Both Ravnicas, Time Spiral 2: The Return, or Commander Feb. 2018. Chris, give us more insight into your drafts and playtests! I need data to be proven wrong!
 
Deal. I'll print one out and force it into a deck tomorrow in a group who've never seen it, and see what happens.

And by force it, I mean switch it for card X at end of draft to guarantee it sees play. Also ill show the group, get their first impressions etc etc
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
I think it feels a lot like Trading Post because it is a card that works well going into the late game and is more of an engine-type card than a role player, but instead of making goats to block indefinitelly, it makes 2/1 haste hexproof creatures that need another creature and mana to attack. I also think the comparison with Assemble the Legion is spot on. The foundry build a huge amount of inevitability over the turns.


I still won't buy this "too complicated" thing. You guys can redesign all you want, Experiment Two is still the perfect card to print as a rare for Return to Both Ravnicas, Time Spiral 2: The Return, or Commander Feb. 2018. Chris, give us more insight into your drafts and playtests! I need data to be proven wrong!

Come on over to my cube thread, there's no way the forthcoming giant info dump needs to be in this thread :p
 
Deal. I'll print one out and force it into a deck tomorrow in a group who've never seen it, and see what happens.

And by force it, I mean switch it for card X at end of draft to guarantee it sees play. Also ill show the group, get their first impressions etc etc


Don't. Just guarantee that it is going to be in the draft from the beginning. If players don't ask anything about it during the draft or during the game, just let things happen. You should observe if/when/how it is being used, if it is being used incorrectly, and how people are troubleshooting in case of questions. Only answer things if they question you directly. After the end of the tournaent/games/day, ask why did players pick it, how did they used it, and if they had any issues with it. Seeing it wheel around and noticing how your players react to it is important.

Remember that players opinions are like Schrodinger's Cat. Sometimes they are uncertain until you actually inspect it, and your inspection will have altered their properties. With that in mind, don't forget to always be neutral and keep the playtest etiquette :D

Also, if someone gets to A/B test this by printing the same card with Evolve and Graft switching places in the text box, I'd be super interested in the results :)
 
That's not a bad way to do it either, normally. But I'm not running my cube "normally". I've got 4 players, generally speaking, my cube isn't a tight 360, and I run Tenchester. That means not only Do I have to assure it's in the draft, I have to:
-Somehow make sure it's pick 1-4 of the pack it's in
-make sure it makes it into the maindeck
-annd see if it's ever comes into action.

It not meeting those criteria would be data in of itself, but I want playtesting data over draft data, and I only have one draft to test during, so I had to pick one. I picked playtesting because that's when the player's notions about something actually get put into action.

I'm sure Chris will be of much greater help in this regard, because he made it and actively cubes with it, but he's also biased for that same reason. This would be basically showing a new spoiler to people and seeing what they think/giving them a chance to playtest it.
 
GG. Thanks to everyone who voted for my card Shadow Servant. Priest is a great card though and deserves the win. Thinking back on my original submission, I think what I should have added to the card was "Exile a creature card from your graveyard: Shadow Servant gets +1/+1 until end of turn. I think that would have pushed the powerlevel enough to get more people on board with it. Anyways I will try my best next contest and take home the win! :)
 
I think Shadow Servant is a good design as is, I'm just not a fan of "oops, I win" cards in cube.

Would the graveyard ability replace the ninjitsu?
 
Why people get tangled on the oops i win clause???
You need like 10 creatures in play for it to be "oops i win"...

If you can sneak in 5 damage for instance it would be a lava axe that you still can interact with removal... I don't get it...
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Why people get tangled on the oops i win clause???
You need like 10 creatures in play for it to be "oops i win"...

If you can sneak in 5 damage for instance it would be a lava axe that you still can interact with removal... I don't get it...

Blocking is a bit part of staying alive mate :p
 
Yes, but no one shakes their head against lightning bolt etc... This card requires A LOT of setup to make real damage..
 
Agreeing with basically everything meltyman is saying. A lot of cubes run burst lightning, but I don't see much discourse about it being too powerful. In fact, there are quite a few fiery confluences around here! that's 6 damage for 4 mana and you get to swing with all your creatures. Goblin bombardment is Shadow Servant in terms of damage, but 2 mana and a very hard to remove permanent type.

Even among the Ninjitsu cards that exist, Ink-Eyes is 5 mana for a 5/4 unblocked creature (lava axe). All in all, Shadow Servant is perfectly fair and balanced, and honestly won't even be able to "oops I win" that often because a lot of the sac decks rely on re-saccing the same thing multiple times, which takes even more mana and time.

If I were to add the GY ability, I'd probably make it 2 creatures per +1/+1, a la Psychatog's GY eating.
 

Kirblinx

Developer
Staff member
GG. Thanks to everyone who voted for my card Shadow Servant. Priest is a great card though and deserves the win. Thinking back on my original submission, I think what I should have added to the card was "Exile a creature card from your graveyard: Shadow Servant gets +1/+1 until end of turn. I think that would have pushed the powerlevel enough to get more people on board with it. Anyways I will try my best next contest and take home the win! :)


Man, it was a great card. Simple, elegant and full of play. Everyone else has sung praises already, so I won't go on.

I feel a little sad now, as I voted for Stoneforge Foundry (Both times) as it is the card that excited me the most. This is coming from a guy that picks Jor Kadeen waaaayyy too highly in the penny cube and puts Trading Post in nearly every cube he can, so it did tend towards my biases :p
Shadow Servant was my next pick. If I had the hindsight of knowing that the vote would be that close I would have switched over to knock the Priest off its pedestal. Not that isn't a good card mind you, something just feels off to me about it. Maybe it feels too powerful, maybe it feels too much like a palette swap of Soulfire Grand Master that it didn't feel as unique as the other two I don't know.

It is all just a matter of opinion (in which case I am mostly wrong :p).

GG
 
Priest is close but {2}{R} for the activation? I think the power of flashback on a stick is being undervalued here. Giving burn spells wither is neat but feels like it will rarely matter much in practice since you have a lot of cases of burn spell + combat damage being enough in one turn anyway. Maybe something like {2}{U/R}{U/R} to activate and deathtouch over wither, and I would have been on board.


Looking back, and this is exactly what I've settled on, so I guess you were right :)
 
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