Never mind, this falls into the category of "Did I draw proper sideboard cards" that we're trying to avoid.
General combo in cube: thoughts on the "showdown turn"
- Thread starter safra
- Start date
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Usually. Also the player with molten rain and scavenging ooze gets just as much access to that hate as the player who's Colors can't interact with these at all
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
So, if our mana engine has to be creature based, how much mana can we make and in what ways.
What are we doing with these cards?
What are we doing with these cards?
Some interesting thoughts here! If combo is condensed enough to have a combo turn, as per earlier in the thread, I don't know that you need long-term mana exclusively over burst mana, so eldrazi spawn tokens might even be another choice alongside creature and land ramp. Summoner's Pact starts to look interesting too given those constraints (hasty green beater, gg) but is a weak tutor the rest of the time. how you feel about weak tutors comes down to your environment i guess! GSZ rules and i run one but endorse running more than one in a combo environment if you want to.
but anyway Grillo I'm gonna talk about disruption a little bit more, how it's been in my environment, and what I've tested and thought. (can you tell i haven't been drafting lately? )
Proactive disruption (i.e. nullifying threats before or just after they're played) on creatures I really like, because you get to choose between advancing your plan or stopping theirs.
Hand disruption in general is usually strong in limited, but the redundancy of some plans (and not others!) gives them a bit of a buffer against discard. So spells that are fine normally are going to be much better either protecting a plan or disrupting it. in Legacy, ANT and esper stoneblade might both play Thoughtseize, but it's much better for ANT than Stoneblade. ANT only needs to remove interaction and Stoneblade has to pull critical combo pieces and the cards that find them. The resiliency of the combo deck and density of the opponent's interaction weigh heavily on that difference in quality of the same card.
Thoughtseize is really good basically anywhere, but then cheap discard drops off considerably. I've mostly made IoK work by dropping my cube's average CMC to 2.5, which isn't as easily portable to other lists, but if you've got a low curve or even just no expensive disruption (largely CMC3 or less counterspells, removal, and combo pieces seem to be the important parts, hitting creatures is important sometimes but less so in this context. I think this means they could theoretically be bigger on average as long as the combo ones stay small enough to be hit.) then it might really work for you! I like casting this card, it's fun, and misses cards based on CMC and not typeline.
Of the t1.5 discard spells there's pretty scant options (Duress and Despise - Cabal Therapy is kind of rough in Cube). Two mana gives you Wrench Mind, Hymn, Castigate and then the situationally-fine Chain of Smog and Sirocco[1]).
I've had the most success with evasive and discard-forcing creatures like Lifebane Zombie, Clique, Sculler and Hypnotic Specter - these apply pressure and give the caster a discard line if they don't already have one (protect the evasive threat).
That said, most of the things I've tested (incl. digging through kamigawa for answers) have ranged from unplayable to merely okay. Blackmail stands out as being stronger late-game, the two-mana two-card gold discard spells are pretty good at applying pressure but don't really touch combo, and anything that cost 4+ just didn't cut it.
I did supplement my double IoKs with Despise over Appetite for Brains; Despise is dead less often and still touches the big threats I wanted another discard spell for, but can still fail, unlike thoughtseize.
So I pushed up the number of counterspells I was running, since they nullify threats similarly, and I've been pleased with the results. Being reactive instead of proactive is an issue, but discard isn't gone from my environment, just supplemented.
[1]Chain of Smog is good when black plays out of the graveyard a bunch, Sirocco was once good and might be again in vintage-style environments
Big mana is cool--
the cards i'm most excited about from your list:
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and finding ways to spend it is cooler. There are creatures that turn mana into cards milled, into creature pump, extra spells, X spells, and my favourite, permanents with activated abilities. As long as there's a bunch of ways to spend mana in your environment, I think the combo decks will be able to choose the ones that advance their specific gameplans.
I like spell lands a bunch in ramp strategies because you can consistently use them and cast your spells in the same turn, they provide flood insurance, and decks that don't interact with nonbasic lands can attack the mana engine instead. Enchantments and artifacts with abilities should be able to play similar roles.
You like big mana combo, and that's cool, I do too. I hope this hasn't been embarrassingly pedestrian? but I want to get into card advantage and that means i want to start talking about things in the context of """vintage combo""" (which is also legacy combo) from the earlier facile distinction.
The exciting part of these combo decks, to me, isn't accumulating and spending mana, it's sculpting a hand that will probably win the game, possibly through disruption. So you need to find Show and Tell because your deck can't even hardcast Omniscience in the first place (lol) but then all the cards you used to find your combo turn out to help you execute it too. I think it might be possible to enable layered engine combo in high-powered environments but needing specific spells or fizzling is a real concern and so card filtering and advantage are key to making it work. I like self-mill and the graveyard as a play space so reaching absurd card advantage there is a cool angle.
The problem with graveyard combo is the lack of (good) incidental disruption. This is hard to fix without getting into custom cards and off-the-wall environments but it might be possible to attack whatever these combo decks focus that card advantage on. Introducing competing demand for cards in the graveyard is a good idea but so is limiting those combo decks to ones that involve the combat step.
Thanks for reading/skimming, I didn't mean for this to get so long.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Yeah, I've been experimenting with some of the ideas you've suggested, so hopefully I will have some feedback. I'm glad you noted the thoughtseize drop off. Even two mana spells have either not been impactful enough for me, or just cards I detest (hymn). Thankfully, with a slower format, I can bring out the big guns: persecute and nightmare void. Hypnotic specter might be a really good addition (god I feel so retro), to replace rakshasa's secret (mind rot you are still not good enough).
Lifebane zombie has been fine, but its inability to hit blue, in particular, is a huge issue to how well it can disrupt combo.
I think part of the issue is that there is no "discard" deck in our cubes, since faster formats (and decks) tend to be relatively immune to it. This condenses the nature of discard to tempo friendly 1-2cc spells, to provide surgical disruption, and most of those cards are terrible. Or at least you had better have a decent body attached. I'm not really sure how feisable of a disruptive approach this is for formats that can't run 4cc discard, but also don't have the 3cc density to run IOK.
I also can give a second look at my counterspell line up, where I think part of the problem is that counterspells are just so boring that no one wants to collect the density to make a true counterspell based plan work. They are either borderline unplayable 3cc+ reactive cards, or part of a creature focused tempo plan. I'm thinking rewind might be an exciting card to run in a bounceland based format, as it has the potential to be a control ramp spell.
Incidental graveyard disruption is actually pretty easy so far as it applies to creatures: exile and pacifism effects. In a true graveyard based format you should be able to run memory's journey, stream of consciousness, and krosan reclamation, which are fantastic.
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I was thinking about burst mana. Pauper (back when the storm keyword was a thing) used to have a family of storm combo decks built around the invasion era triple lands.
These are color fixing rituals built into the mana base. Of course, you would want a more purpose built format to use them. One of the problems, however, with using eldrazi spawn is that they make colorless mana. Rituals or mana dorks, I think, are still going to be the best sources of burst mana.
There is also this guy
Who seems to be an intersection point with a bunch of creature based combos. If you want a creature based combo engine, I think it would revolve around:
Thats your equivalent of my familiar combo. You can loop that with a sac. outlet and pawn of ulamog in play to make infinite mana (or deal infinite damage with blood artist). You can infinite scry with viscera seer, or infinite mill with altar of dementia, etc.
Since its a sacrifice based combo, you could also run persist combo alongside it, and there are a bunch of tutor options in black, green, and red to put it all together. Than slot the pieces into an aristocrats shell, and you have a couple viable creature based combo decks to choose from. Since it has built in value reanimation pieces, it should be pretty resilent (even the version with multiple parts).
The question than becomes, how do you want to disrupt that?
Lifebane zombie has been fine, but its inability to hit blue, in particular, is a huge issue to how well it can disrupt combo.
I think part of the issue is that there is no "discard" deck in our cubes, since faster formats (and decks) tend to be relatively immune to it. This condenses the nature of discard to tempo friendly 1-2cc spells, to provide surgical disruption, and most of those cards are terrible. Or at least you had better have a decent body attached. I'm not really sure how feisable of a disruptive approach this is for formats that can't run 4cc discard, but also don't have the 3cc density to run IOK.
I also can give a second look at my counterspell line up, where I think part of the problem is that counterspells are just so boring that no one wants to collect the density to make a true counterspell based plan work. They are either borderline unplayable 3cc+ reactive cards, or part of a creature focused tempo plan. I'm thinking rewind might be an exciting card to run in a bounceland based format, as it has the potential to be a control ramp spell.
Incidental graveyard disruption is actually pretty easy so far as it applies to creatures: exile and pacifism effects. In a true graveyard based format you should be able to run memory's journey, stream of consciousness, and krosan reclamation, which are fantastic.
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I was thinking about burst mana. Pauper (back when the storm keyword was a thing) used to have a family of storm combo decks built around the invasion era triple lands.
These are color fixing rituals built into the mana base. Of course, you would want a more purpose built format to use them. One of the problems, however, with using eldrazi spawn is that they make colorless mana. Rituals or mana dorks, I think, are still going to be the best sources of burst mana.
There is also this guy
Who seems to be an intersection point with a bunch of creature based combos. If you want a creature based combo engine, I think it would revolve around:
Thats your equivalent of my familiar combo. You can loop that with a sac. outlet and pawn of ulamog in play to make infinite mana (or deal infinite damage with blood artist). You can infinite scry with viscera seer, or infinite mill with altar of dementia, etc.
Since its a sacrifice based combo, you could also run persist combo alongside it, and there are a bunch of tutor options in black, green, and red to put it all together. Than slot the pieces into an aristocrats shell, and you have a couple viable creature based combo decks to choose from. Since it has built in value reanimation pieces, it should be pretty resilent (even the version with multiple parts).
The question than becomes, how do you want to disrupt that?
Dom Harvey
Contributor
The Invasion saclands were great for combo. Balancing Tings was such a wonderful deck, and I had a lot of fun and success in Gavin Verhey's Overextended experiment with this:
I started with Rituals and Lotus Blooms before realizing that the saclands were just better.
The Lark/Guide/Sun Titan interactions are the main form of combo I support and a key to giving white a combo 'engine' (as distinct from single-card combos like Replenish/Open the Vaults or interactions like Nomad Mythmaker + Eldrazi Conscription). There's also Fiend Hunter/Banisher Priest for the Sun Titan + sac outlet loop, and Leonin Relic-Warder + Phyrexian Metamorph + [Soul Warden equivalent] works too. Genesis Chamber?
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I started with Rituals and Lotus Blooms before realizing that the saclands were just better.
The Lark/Guide/Sun Titan interactions are the main form of combo I support and a key to giving white a combo 'engine' (as distinct from single-card combos like Replenish/Open the Vaults or interactions like Nomad Mythmaker + Eldrazi Conscription). There's also Fiend Hunter/Banisher Priest for the Sun Titan + sac outlet loop, and Leonin Relic-Warder + Phyrexian Metamorph + [Soul Warden equivalent] works too. Genesis Chamber?
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
This is probably pretty academic for most people, but if you want a combo dredge feel:
Run whatever self-mill is competitive in the format, fill up the graveyard, make a ton of mana and win.
Run whatever self-mill is competitive in the format, fill up the graveyard, make a ton of mana and win.
OK. Someone please sell me on Fatestitcher. I see it mentioned a lot around here. I think Jason runs it and his cube is pretty high power. Untapping is a cool effect (especially nice with Pod, also potentially awesome with some lands). But seriously, a 1/2 for 3U is... fucking terrible. I can't even sugar coat that. A one shot untap effect for U is fine I guess, but is that worth a card? What am I missing here?
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
It depends on what you're untapping with it.
Hits at all power levels. The unearth means you can discard it, mill it, or have it hit by removal and still win.
Random cards it has synergy with
Than removal it sometimes blanks
Its also a good value sacrifice target.
Hits at all power levels. The unearth means you can discard it, mill it, or have it hit by removal and still win.
Random cards it has synergy with
Than removal it sometimes blanks
Its also a good value sacrifice target.
Thanks Grillo. I think the issue is that I'm running like 5 of those cards, so when I think how I can abuse his effect in my list I just draw a blank. With that said, I may have to test him anyway just to see what it does. Some cards look innocuous but play better than they read. This may be one of those cards.
Combos tend to lend inevitability in cube it doesn't really feel like a whole commitment or an early game thing unless you support pants decks.
Say command + witness or craterhoof. These plays feel like combo in the way you lot describe, feel very different but sorta provide the same general benefit.
Honestly I think real combo is hard to implement if you aren't working with a real novel cube and it tends to be a special out that should have certain protection from interaction.
Say command + witness or craterhoof. These plays feel like combo in the way you lot describe, feel very different but sorta provide the same general benefit.
Honestly I think real combo is hard to implement if you aren't working with a real novel cube and it tends to be a special out that should have certain protection from interaction.