General Community cuts thread

Erik Twice

Erik Twice

That's a sweet deck though one should note it doesn't do anything for neither Cranial Plating nor Toolcraft Exemplar. You also got a very high number of key cards, more than I think are normal. But if this kind of deck can be easily built then yeah, Welder is fine.
 
GalacticTraveler12

GalacticTraveler12

...oh. :confused: I assumed the deck Alfonzo drafted was from your cube, my mistake!

I'm still not sure whose cube that was... who is user "Warwolt" on cubetutor?

EDIT: Ah, it was Rasmus's. Well, I'll have to draft an example from your cube as well. :)
 
GalacticTraveler12

GalacticTraveler12

Here's the real deal:

Boros Artifacts from CubeTutor.com












I would agree that artifact density is on the low end compared to most cubes running that theme on RTL, but I think it works here. This list has 8-9 ways to produce artifacts, so Metalcraft is triggerable, but not trivial, to activate. If you would like to keep artifacts as a more contained archetype (it looks like a solidly Jeskai theme, from a quick glance?) rather than the uncontrolled spillage of tetra/pentagonal, then this seems like a good way to do it.
 
Erik Twice

Erik Twice

Personally, that list is a good example of why I would make those cuts (or support the archetype more). It's not awful, but you are have sacrificed quite a few picks on the draft to run cards in a fairly unoptimal manner. In other words, I don't think Steel Overseer is going to do much as another white or red card would in its slot.

It's good to see a range of opinions, though. He'll find it more useful than just listening to one guy :)
 
Rasmus Källqvist

Rasmus Källqvist

Erik Twice said:


Like japahn, you don't run enough artifacts to make Cranial Plating playable. You run 34, which is very low, but it's even less in practice because most of them are either weak picks (Terrarion) or very expensive (Staff of Nin, Duplicant). I don't think it's physically possible to make the card work even if you could handpick the cards from your cube. The same applies to Toolcraft Exemplar who goes in the same deck.

Looking at the cube, there are a lot of artifact-centered cards that just don't have the right support. Welder is a complete trap, for example.
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Thanks for the feedback! As Alfonzo pointed out, I'm running colored artifacts and cards that create artifact tokens. When you wrote the comment there were a total of 56 cards that created artifacts, and I just pumped it up to 60. That's one sixth of the entire cube, so I don't know if it's feasible to increase it without making the entire cube artifact themed.

Erik Twice said:
Some additional thoughts:

I've drafted your cube twice and I didn't have any mana fixing either time. At a glance, you run three sets of lands which could be seen as enough except the lands you include are bouncelands or come into play tapped for a minor benefit. This makes it very difficult to play creatures on a curve.
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I understand this sentiment, but this is partially a stylistic thing. Like Grillo's cubes and others like them, there are examples of viable formats based on CipT-lands, and since there are 4 of every land there should be enough fixing to play a two colored deck. People also play 2-colored decks in regular retail draft formats without any untapped mana fixing lands, so I don't agree with the statement that there isn't enough fixing.

Alfonzo Bonzo said:
Don't be afraid to make suggestions, just having someone's opinion on the cube is more appreciated. Either way,
Cube looks good. I'll make some more comments when I have some time to review properly. Have you got a blog page? Looks good from what I've seen.
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I just finished the new cube list, and I'm planning on posting a blog thread this weekend hopefully :) Detail some of my design thoughts, you're welcome to give it a look when it's up.

Thanks for the feedback y'all.
 
Erik Twice

Erik Twice

Rasmus Källqvist said:
I understand this sentiment, but this is partially a stylistic thing. Like Grillo's cubes and others like them, there are examples of viable formats based on CipT-lands, and since there are 4 of every land there should be enough fixing to play a two colored deck. People also play 2-colored decks in regular retail draft formats without any untapped mana fixing lands, so I don't agree with the statement that there isn't enough fixing.
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What I mean is that there's fixing, but it's not the kind of fixing a more aggressive deck benefits from. If I want to play, say, a green guy on turn one and a blue guy on turn two the only bicolor lands that allow me to do that are the checklands cycle. The other cycles (Scry, gain 1 life, bouncelands) are bad for me, with the latter being awful.

The same issue comes up on turn three. I'll only be able to pay bicolor costs like 1GG (or 1G, G) on curve if I get lucky and draw the appropiate land because all lands that come into play tapped slow me down a turn.

I'm biased, but I would have felt more comfortable curving out with one more set of lands not coming into play tapped. A WR deck, for example, would have to forgo one of its land drops to curve out and I dislike that. On the other hand, your cube has a lower power level and, if aggro is fine, there's nothing wrong with it.
 
japahn

japahn

GalacticTraveler12 said:
I would agree that artifact density is on the low end compared to most cubes running that theme on RTL, but I think it works here. This list has 8-9 ways to produce artifacts, so Metalcraft is triggerable, but not trivial, to activate. If you would like to keep artifacts as a more contained archetype (it looks like a solidly Jeskai theme, from a quick glance?) rather than the uncontrolled spillage of tetra/pentagonal, then this seems like a good way to do it.
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Yep, artifacts is a triangle archetype in WUR. The idea is that Toolcraft Exemplar will usually be a 3/2 and that Metalcraft is achievable in long games or in good draws. I think there does need to be a bit more artifact density in WR (perhaps 2-3 cards), thanks for finding this out!

One point I think is worth talking about (at the risk of derailing this thread, but hey, this is RipLab): my cube is not 100% synergy-based. It's meant to be 50% synergy, so good-stuff should be able to compete with synergistic decks. If artifacts is easy to draft, consistent, and powerful, that makes other aggro decks look silly. Drafting the artifacts deck is then a goal/achievement, not trivial.


I think my bots might be overtrained to draft WR artifacts now :D


Erik Twice said:
Personally, that list is a good example of why I would make those cuts (or support the archetype more). It's not awful, but you are have sacrificed quite a few picks on the draft to run cards in a fairly unoptimal manner. In other words, I don't think Steel Overseer is going to do much as another white or red card would in its slot.

It's good to see a range of opinions, though. He'll find it more useful than just listening to one guy :)
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It sure is great to see the range of opinions, thanks for the deep discussion!

I agree Steel Overseer is not stellar there, but the fact it turns on Toolcraft Exemplar, makes Visionary Augmenter a significant threat, leaves a counter on Vault Skirge before opponent untaps with Goblin Sharpshooter, and is a growing blocker makes it pull enough weight to be worth playing.

Cranial Plating is often just +2/+0 or +3/+0, but that's totally fine at my power level. It's a payoff that scales really well - bad but not useless without any enablers, decent with a few enablers, amazing but not auto-win with a lot of enablers.
 
Erik Twice

Erik Twice

All right, I'm finishing my cube and preparing myself to make proxies and start picking up cards. Are there any cards you think wouldn't work? Anything that sees ugly to you? Let me know please! :)
 
Nanonox

Nanonox



seem out of place. These are tough to build around. So either double up on one (maybe cutting the other), add support in other colors (like Prime Speaker Vannifar) or just cut them.



This guy seems pretty weak and slow compared to other creatures in that slot. The body is fragile and he isn't online right away. You could go for a Xathrid Necromancer to support both humans and sacrifice or some other dude as you see fit.

Other than that, the cube looks good!
 
Erik Twice

Erik Twice

Hey Nanonox. You are probably right about Birthing Pod and perhaps I should double-up on it. I haven't found Collected Company to be as difficult to build around because it's an overall good card but I'll keep it in mind. I think I'm going to add a 51th green card for a second Pod. I used to run Vannifar but I ended up cutting her. She's too slow and limiting.

Regarding Stronghold Assassin, he's on the weaker side but the effect is very strong. I tried Attrition but that was way too brutal.

I'm glad you like it. Here's hoping it turns out well :)
 
Suicufnoc

Suicufnoc


Is this somehow worth a pick in your environment?


Is this good enough?


Seems Underwhelming


Seems weak for a gold card, depends on your multi-color philosophy.

This was hard, mostly found a bunch of stuff I'd love to run but can't fit in my current quest for 360...
 
Nanonox

Nanonox


Is this somehow worth a pick in your environment?
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I believe so, yes. It's not a high pick to be sure, but it does some good work especially with Emry, Lurker of the Loch and pretty much all the artifact type cards (Welders, Monastery Mentor, Sai, Master Thopterist, Trinket Mage, Marionette Master).
Then there is random recursion where you can get some value Sun Titan, Renegade Rallier. There is GY related cards that care about types (Tarmogoyf, Mindwrack Demon, Emrakul, the Promised End, Delve cards).

I am currently running 3 Arcum's Astrolabes and the Bauble. I could be convinced to try 4-0, but I feel this one has upside the other does not.



Is this good enough?
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In multiplayer, absolutely! It pushes through early damage by removing blockers and late game, it gives you reach. It also helps you win races as gaining 2-3 life per spell you cast adds up. It's less vulnerable than say Imposing Sovereign and can arguably do more damage overtime. The one downside is that it annoys people into attacking you...




Seems Underwhelming
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Once again, in multiplayer games, this draws 2-3 cards upon ETB. The other option I was considering was Sphinx of Uthuun which has better ETB, but I wanted to see if the mana sink was worth it (I still don't know, this hasn't come up yet). This could also be cut for the new Shimmer Dragon which looks awesome tbh.



Seems weak for a gold card, depends on your multi-color philosophy.
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That is a fair point, as it is clearly the worst of my Simic cards (power level wise). However, I have always seen it main decked, it works perfectly with Birthing Pod/Prime Speaker Vanifar which I am trying to promote in UG and is a 2 drop which my cube needs more of. That being said, it would be my first cut for a sweet new Simic card.

Thank you very much for the insight. You made me realize I want to try Shimmer Dragon instead of the Sphinx and made me question whether or not I should keep Bauble (going to lose an hour thinking about it, then do nothing probably).
 
sigh

sigh

Mishra's Bauble is fine. We run almost exclusively multiplayer, and it's maindecked all the time. As you say, it has lots of interesting little interactions, and then it basically lowers your deck size to 39 cards, so lots of deck can use it with almost no downside.
 
Erik Twice

Erik Twice

First, Suifococ's cube. Your cube is similar to mine in many ways and it's quite streamlined so I don't have much to suggest.



This is a card I keep coming back, only to end up cutting it again. It's fine and it reads well but I keep walking away unhappy because it's a 4-drop. Most decks will have more cards of higher casting cost available than they should reallistically play and it's difficult for Restoration Gerasmith not to be cut for a planeswalker or other impactful equivalents.

I know the Orzhov slot is hard to fill, though.





I still contend this card is bad. It's very expensive for a Exploration effect, much more vulnerable and it costs three mana which means much of the advantages of Exploration will be lost. The potential upside is not worth it, IMHO.

Regarding Nanonox' cube, have you made Greater Good work? It's an intereting effect, but I've never seen a deck with it in Cube. Any suggestions on that regard?
 
Suicufnoc

Suicufnoc

Thanks for the suggestions! You're definitely right about Restoration Gearsmith. I've never played with Wayward Swordtooth yet, and I want to try it for a few reasons, but I'll keep it in mind.

The cubes about 100 cards from being complete right now after reworking the list. I think I'm just gonna make a big proxy order soon...

Greater Good has always kind of scared me...
 
Nanonox

Nanonox

Greater Good is a very strong card, but not all decks want it. I'm trying to use it as a bridge between sacrifice matters, +1/+1 counters (grow tall) and the graveyard (so mostly Jund and Sultai decks).

For example, sacrificing something as silly as a Jadelight Ranger that got a couple of counters allows you to be up a card and fill your GY rapidly for something like a Living Death. Or maybe you get a bunch of value cards in the GY like a Deep Analysis, Firebolt, Anger, Honored Hydra, Gravecrawler.

I've seen it used in a turbo mill deck with the likes of Laboratory Maniac and Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis in conjunction with Golgari Grave-Troll or Hydroid Krasis to just mill yourself fast.

A more basic, but just as effective use for it is in a RG monster type deck where all the cards you play are huge and will net you extra cards. RG also has some fun steal effects likeZealous Conscripts, Sarkhan Vol and Yasova Dragonclaw.

Just be warned that it's not always possible at my power level to take a turn off to cast this card, which is why I'm still in the tryout phase.
 
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