Yeah, I think certain discussions around cube seem to completely forget about the kinds of numbers we see in pretty much every retail draft format? Aggro decks there is usually supported by a 3-4 one drops, but mostly 2-drops and 3-drops. Seems like people conflate cube with one specific high powered style of cube, sometimes.
Article Cross-Appeal in Cube — Recipes to Avoid the Pitfalls of Parasitic Archetypes
- Thread starter Onderzeeboot
- Start date
Yeah, I think certain discussions around cube seem to completely forget about the kinds of numbers we see in pretty much every retail draft format? Aggro decks there is usually supported by a 3-4 one drops, but mostly 2-drops and 3-drops. Seems like people conflate cube with one specific high powered style of cube, sometimes.
Onder, I read this article as "here are tools you may use to reduce parasitism" and it does that really wellThanks for writing it.
I think a lot of people are reading it as "this is the gospel, do not run parasitic cards at all", and concerned that the combination of all cards being playable by themselves, plus pulling the mana curve to the center, plus pulling the colors towards low-pip requirements causes all decks to blend together and the cube to become a mass of prismatic midrange in which the combinations of cards that work together are maximized, but the distinction between different decks and archetypes is minimal.
As with a lot of other things in cube and in life, there is a balance.
Most of the time in synergy-oriented cubes we struggle with too much parasitism so much that we forget that some amount of parasitic cards is fine, and beneficial. Being passed Dauntless Bodyguard, then Isamaru, Hound of Konda signals that white aggro is supported and rewards you for speculatively picking the first one up. It also add to the environment a deck that does something the other don't, which is dump a bunch of 2/1s on the board early. Gold signposts like Empyrean Eagle are, as well, useful for signaling and rewarding whoever goes into the archetype they are intended for. High-pip cards like Cryptic Command reward decks for being less than three colors and effectively have synergy with fixing.
Great addition to a great article. I think the golden spot you want to touch in most cases are cards that are solid fillers in all or most decks but especially great in only one or two sspecific ones. Maybe it is because of my limited experience with high powere cubes, but I feel like this is easier to achieve in lower powered environments. Here a small example:
All these cards are fine when you don't get there with a (no longer) critical mass of spells/zombies/artifacts, but they clearly get better when you can collect a bunch of these cards. I guess the Muse could also be called a "self-containing payoff", but I'd put these three cards in a different category. Maybe "high floor payoffs"?
The best part is, that you can put cards like Muse or Blast in a cube without an explicit zombie/artifact theme. It might mislead some drafters like once, but how bad really is this, when the fail case is a Shock or a black Hill Giat with a Phyrexian Arena attached?
Universally playable payoffs?
How many threads have I posted in now about Wizard's Lightning/Retort and Winged Words? I think these designs, as well as the instant/sorcery/wizard cards from ZNR are such excellent non-parasitic tribal.
Definitely feels like a different kind of card.
I'm always too afraid to kill myself with Muse, so I never run it.
How many threads have I posted in now about Wizard's Lightning/Retort and Winged Words? I think these designs, as well as the instant/sorcery/wizard cards from ZNR are such excellent non-parasitic tribal.
Definitely feels like a different kind of card.
I'm always too afraid to kill myself with Muse, so I never run it.
Man, that sounds horrible. You should see Dr. Carrion, he can help you with that inner fear!
landofMordor
Administrator
Hey, I'm all about those reddit thread discussions
You do a good job of summarizing how both sides of this coin are mis-represented by the community at large. Especially considering I was the collaborator on that vid, I think it's crazy for the sole takeaway to be "you need exactly 8 1-drops" -- the caveats and contextualization you mention are crucial, and really the 1-drops thing was never anything more than an a salient example to introduce the hypergeo as a tool.
Interestingly, I actually see a lot of parallels between that vid and the OP. Onderzeeboot's thoughts essentially boil down to "tools for helping your decks succeed in reaching your design goals", especially w.r.t. card selection. I hope the main legacy of that Cultic vid is as another flexible tool to achieve one's goals, but w.r.t. effect density instead. In essence they're not so different, and I think the common move of pitting the two against one another is a somewhat naive reading, if not disingenuous. But most importantly, to polarize this discussion is very limiting of one's design tools -- it's like building a house and throwing away your hammer! You are so right to say that each of these tools can be used in parallel and in dialog to more effectively achieve one's goals.
First time posting on this site, here goes nothing...
I'd like to bring up a seventh recipe for reducing parasitism: which is reducing the amount of critical mass required for a synergetic card to work.
For example, compare the aforementioned Lord of the Accursed to Gravecrawler.
When you play Lord of the Accursed, it will synergize with any Zombies you have in play, and any Zombies you will play while it is alive. If you draw it at the start of the game, it might very well look at ten of your cards to potentially synergize with. If you draw it later on, however, when your hand size is smaller, it might not even see five! Lord of the Accursed only checks a small portion of your deck for synergies.
In addition, a Lord of the Accursed accompanied by a single Zombie is hardly impressive. Lord of the Accursed needs to find multiple Zombies in the portion of your deck it checks in order to be effective.
In comparison, Gravecrawler's synergy works while it is in the graveyard. As a result, Gravecrawler checks a larger portion of your deck for synergies.
In addition, Gravecrawler only requires a single Zombie to be on the board for it to function. As a result, Gravecrawler only needs to find one zombie in the portion of your deck it checks in order to be effective.
Paying attention to how large a portion of your deck a card looks into for synergies, and how many synergy targets it requires, can help enormously with reducing the critical mass required for a synergy to function.
Graveyard-based synergies are probably the most common way to have cards look at a greater portion of your deck for synergies: Gravecrawler is an example of a card that synergizes with any cards you draw in the future after it has entered the graveyard, but you can also take it in the opposite direction with cards that look into your graveyard, such as Wort, Boggart Auntie, Angel of Glory's Rise, Aphemia, the Cacophony, or Replenish. Graveyard-based synergies get to look at an even larger portion of your deck for synergies when self-milling gets involved.
Another option is tutor effects, such as Goblin Matron, which will look at your entire remaining library: often twenty cards or more. A deck that has a lot of draw or scry would also naturally check greater portions of your deck for synergies, but I can't think of any examples of how to exploit that off the top of my head.
Finally, pay attention to how many cards you want the card to synergize with before you feel happy about it. Lords/tribal anthems are generally cards you won't be happy with unless they find multiple things to synergize with, for example, meaning they need a greater critical mass of synergy than other cards.
I'd like to bring up a seventh recipe for reducing parasitism: which is reducing the amount of critical mass required for a synergetic card to work.
For example, compare the aforementioned Lord of the Accursed to Gravecrawler.
When you play Lord of the Accursed, it will synergize with any Zombies you have in play, and any Zombies you will play while it is alive. If you draw it at the start of the game, it might very well look at ten of your cards to potentially synergize with. If you draw it later on, however, when your hand size is smaller, it might not even see five! Lord of the Accursed only checks a small portion of your deck for synergies.
In addition, a Lord of the Accursed accompanied by a single Zombie is hardly impressive. Lord of the Accursed needs to find multiple Zombies in the portion of your deck it checks in order to be effective.
In comparison, Gravecrawler's synergy works while it is in the graveyard. As a result, Gravecrawler checks a larger portion of your deck for synergies.
In addition, Gravecrawler only requires a single Zombie to be on the board for it to function. As a result, Gravecrawler only needs to find one zombie in the portion of your deck it checks in order to be effective.
Paying attention to how large a portion of your deck a card looks into for synergies, and how many synergy targets it requires, can help enormously with reducing the critical mass required for a synergy to function.
Graveyard-based synergies are probably the most common way to have cards look at a greater portion of your deck for synergies: Gravecrawler is an example of a card that synergizes with any cards you draw in the future after it has entered the graveyard, but you can also take it in the opposite direction with cards that look into your graveyard, such as Wort, Boggart Auntie, Angel of Glory's Rise, Aphemia, the Cacophony, or Replenish. Graveyard-based synergies get to look at an even larger portion of your deck for synergies when self-milling gets involved.
Another option is tutor effects, such as Goblin Matron, which will look at your entire remaining library: often twenty cards or more. A deck that has a lot of draw or scry would also naturally check greater portions of your deck for synergies, but I can't think of any examples of how to exploit that off the top of my head.
Finally, pay attention to how many cards you want the card to synergize with before you feel happy about it. Lords/tribal anthems are generally cards you won't be happy with unless they find multiple things to synergize with, for example, meaning they need a greater critical mass of synergy than other cards.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
That is actually a great suggestion! I don't think I can port all of the concepts to the article easily. For example, it's hard to compare Goblin Matron and Gravecrawler, as their role in their respective tribes is so different. Considering how large of a portion of your deck a card checks isn't straightforward either. I don't think you can say Goblin Matron has more value because it checks a larger portion of your deck for synergies compared to Gravecrawler. Gravecrawler also has a lot more inherent value as an aggressive 2/1 for one mana, for example, whereas Goblin Matron has an absolutely atrocious statline and is therefore completely unplayable unless you can tutor for an impactful goblin. That said, the point about critical mass needed for a payoff to function is absolutely great, and is in fact a point that was brought up by LSV and Marshal in a recent review for limited of Kaldheim cards. You know what, I'm going to add that recipe to my article, because it's very useful to consider while building or updating your cube!
Thanks! I wasn't intending to say Goblin Matron has more value than Gravecrawler just because it checks a larger portion of the deck, by the way: I was trying to bring up "the amount of cards it checks in your deck" as an important factor among many, not as an end-all be-all.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Aw yeah! I got published on CubeCobra today!
Riptide represent!
Such a great article!!
https://cubecobra.com/content/article/6022ce1c03235a7690cfdfc0
Well done!
Also good job Train
https://cubecobra.com/content/article/6022ce1c03235a7690cfdfc0
Well done!
Also good job Train