General Cube archetypes help

Nanonox

Nanonox

I'm in the process of powering down my cube and would appreciate some suggestions in regards to archetypes. I'm looking to build a cube with more synergies and decision making than before and I figured that fleshing out what each shard/wedge/guild/color is trying to do would help greatly.

I play in a multiplayer environment (3 or 4 player FFA) so stuff like straight aggro won't work, but aggro combo can totally be an option.

Here is what I have so far (nothing too crazy, since this is a first attempt)

Jeskai - Spells. Plenty of tokens and tempo tools, as well as an artifact subtheme.
  1. Boros - Tokens/aggro (Rally the Peasants, Young Pyromancer, Monastery Mentor)
  2. Azorius - Tempo/flyers (Depose//Deploy, Monastery Mentor, Talrand, Sky Summoner)
  3. Izzet - Tokens/tempo (Young Pyromancer, Talrand, Sky Summoner, Maverick Thopterist).
Sultai - Graveyard matters.
  1. Golgari - Creature based GY interactions (Genesis, Izoni, Thousand-Eyed, Varolz, the Scar-Striped)
  2. Dimir - Can take many forms: Reanimator, Spell recursion, Delve value. Too unfocused? too much support? (Animate Dead, Snapcaster Mage, Tasigur, the Golden Fang
  3. Simic - GY support. Don't have a clear identity here besides leaching on the other themes. Maybe it could be land based with Ramunap Excavator, Life from the Loam, Splendid Reclamation?
Temur - Big mana
  1. Simic - Untap ramp (Wild Growth, Kiora's Follower, Arbor Elf)
  2. Gruul - Creature ramp (Llanowar Elves, Nikaya of the Old Ways)
  3. Izzet - Artifact ramp (Tezzeret the Seeker, Basalt Monolith, Fire Diamond)
Abzan - +1/+1 counters
  1. Selesnya - Go wide (Nissa, Voice of Zendikar, Mikaeus, the Lunarch, Shalai, Voice of Plenty)
  2. Golgari - Sacrifice (Flesh Carver, Carrion Feeder, Woodfall Primus)
  3. Orzhov - Life gain (Archangel of Thune, Kitchen Finks, Karlov of the Ghost Council)
Mardu - Tokens
  1. Boros - Artifact tokens (Sram's Expertise, Pia and Kiran Nalaar, Steel Overseer)
  2. Orzhov - Flyers (Bitterblossom, Lingering Souls, Divine Visitation)
  3. Rakdos - Aristocrats (Judith, Scourge Diva, Goblin Sharpshooter, Blood Artist)
Naya - Lands
  1. Boros - Land destruction (Armageddon, Catastrophe, Ruination)
  2. Selesnya - Graveyard (Titania, Protector of Argoth, Knight of the Reliquary, Horizon Canopy)
  3. Gruul - ?? Wildfire type deck?
Grixis - Artifacts
  1. Izzet - Ramp or GY (Tezzeret the Seeker, Izzet Signet, Goblin Welder)
  2. Dimir - Reanimation (Body Double, Animate Dead, Academy Ruins)
  3. Rakdos - Sacrifice (Marionette Master, Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast, Pia and Kiran Nalaar)
Esper - Life gain
  1. Orzhov - Counters (Archangel of Thune, Karlov of the Ghost Council, Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim)
  2. Azorius - Tempo (Resplendent Angel, Dovin, Grand Arbiter, Cloudblazer)
  3. Dimir - Nothing. This can play tempo well. Maybe I should just drop Life gain and go for Esper tempo.
Jund - Aristocrats
  1. Rakdos - Burn (Judith, Scourge Diva, Goblin Bombardment, Blood Artist)
  2. Golgari - Value (Deathreap Ritual, Evolutionary Leap, Midnight Reaper)
  3. Gruul - Tokens (Goblin Rabblemaster, Huntmaster of the Fells, Sarkhan Vol)
Bant - Planeswalkers(hate this one)
Thalia's Lancers, Captain Sisay, Oath of Teferi, Rings of Brighthearth are cards that would fit well, but not enough to make it an archetype.
If I were to add Doubling Season and Deepglow Skate, then we are in business, but those cards don't go in the direction I want for my cube. Huge rewards with little/no effort.

So to summarize:
  1. I need to find a Bant theme that doesn't suck.
  2. Can "tempo" be an archetype? Or is it a theater like aggro, midrange and control?
  3. Should I be more focused on what I want Dimir to do? Or is a general graveyard theme ok?
  4. I'm not sure what to do with Gruul lands in my Naya shard.
  5. Same thing with Simic in Sultai wedge.
If you got this far, thanks for reading. This has helped me structure my thoughts a bit, but I would love feedback if anyone has anything to contribute (good and bad). I can't be the first to try this, how has it worked for you?
 
Chris Taylor

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Okay, lets start from the top: Are all of these in your cube? That's a LOT of archetypes to support. Supporting all 10 shards in one environment like that means each 2 color pair has three possible configurations

This sounds all well and good, but you're going to end up with a lot of off theme cards in a given deck.
Lets say someone's drafting white for eg, given your above archetypes:
White has cards from:
  • Bant Planeswalkers Theme (Thalia's Lancers)
  • Lifegain support/payoff
  • Boros/Selesnya Lands
  • Flying/Artifact Tokens
  • +1/+1 counters
  • Spells Matter
There's overlap between these themes, but even with cards crossing over between two or more themes, there's going to be a lot of muddied waters. Counters decks don't want soul warden, lands decks don't want glorious anthem, spells decks don't want Mikaeus, Hell the planeswalker deck probably doesn't actually want ajani goldmane :p


Here's what I've done: Pick 5. It doesn't have to be just the 5 shards or just the 5 wedges, but make sure each color is in 3 shards (for Eg: Bant/Jeskai/Jund/Mardu/Sultai)

Here's a list of the possible combinations, since doing the actual combinatorics is a pain:
Capture.PNG

Give each Shard/Wedge an overriding theme with breakdowns of how the 2 color decks within it work just like you have, and note down where themes overlap and where you can add cross archetype cards.
For example, Grixis is the spells shard in my cube, and Sultai is the graveyardy one. So blue and black have some room for cheap flashbacks spells like think twice. Unearth is just as good at "protecting" young pyromancer as it is starting value chains with eternal witness, and snapcaster mage works well with both themes.

I'd also mention that you really have to look at the use cases for cards when determining weather they work as an overlap. Carrion Feeder without the proper food (Gravecrawler, Pawn of Ulamog, Mitotic Slime, etc) is going to have 0-1 +1/+1 counters on it. Karlov of the Ghost Council needs to be in a deck with a bunch of lifegain triggers, not Abzan Falconer and Trollbred Guardian. Even if these cards contain the text "+1/+1 counter", they don't lend themselves to a deck full of +1/+1 counters cards and payoffs.
There's also some cards here that are too powerful on their own to really be considered part of a specific "deck". Armageddon certainly has the word "lands" on it, but you don't need life from the loam or Knight of the Reliquary to make it good, you just need to cast it when you're winning, weather it's surrounded by control cards, aggro cards, combo cards, whatever.

If you want, here's what I'm currently running this in my cube: (Contains heavy use of custom cards)
I can't guarantee you'll have the density necessary for any of these (since I've filled in a lot of the blanks myself with customs), or if they work in multiplayer at all, but it's worth sharing I figure.
 
Nanonox

Nanonox

First of all, many thanks for taking the time to read, analyse and answer my post. Much appreciated.

I see what you are saying about supporting all 10 shards/wedges. My reasoning was that we noticed that during all of our drafts we end up with easily 30 playable cards, so having some narrow ones for particular archetypes shouldn't be a problem and would add spice to the draft.
I am probably underestimating the amount of narrow cards supporting all 10 shards/wedges entails. I can't say I'm sad to narrow it down to 5 archetypes because some were a stretch :p

I also agree about your Carrion Feeder example. I'll try and craft theoretical decks that would work in each archetype and color combination to see if everything fits together.

I'm going to experiment with the different combinations excluding Bant :p
 
ravnic

ravnic

I feel like those three color archetypes lead to more streamlined drafts and make a lot of decks look muddied, like chris already said. With 5, it is certainly possible, but when you only take 5, some guild are just more supported than others, right? Some will have two archetypes, but some will only have one and might become a bit mono thematic when all your space is used up by archetype support cards.

I had an archetype overhaul myself pretty recently, and I had a huge success with guild archetypes, that bleed into each other as well as into other colors a little bit. Example 1: Archetype bleeding. There is a Landfall deck in {G/U}. Now, there are some cards, that link that archetype to others that share a color. For example, there are quite a few card spread that encourage a combination with the {G/W} token deck:




Example 2: Color bleeding. I support a Dredge value deck in {B/G} with Spider Spawning and such. Blue happens to have quite a few nice tools for this archetype just because they are good cards:




Then I added a spicy Laboratory Maniac and blue became a tempting variation of that deck. That leads me to Example 3, one-card archetypes. By adding some sweet build-arounds (and maybe some tutors), one can give a draft another dimension with the least possible space taken up (one card literally). Some of my favorites:




I'm not saying this is the only correct way or best way ever to design a cube, but one thing I learned is, that one of the most important things in designing a cube for long-termfun is, to leave some space for creativity and not to put everything on rails. And I feel like the best mix between consistency and variation is, to have 10 guild archetypes that build the core (aka the ones inexperienced players/drafters can always rely on) and then try to get as much possibilities to draft in the cube without disturbing the core archetypes.
 
TrainmasterGT

TrainmasterGT

Nanonox said:
I'm in the process of powering down my cube and would appreciate some suggestions in regards to archetypes. I'm looking to build a cube with more synergies and decision making than before and I figured that fleshing out what each shard/wedge/guild/color is trying to do would help greatly.

I play in a multiplayer environment (3 or 4 player FFA) so stuff like straight aggro won't work, but aggro combo can totally be an option.
Click to expand...
The other thing worth remembering is that getting too specific with your archetypes can lead to a format with tons of different cards that just don't jive together. I've been doing most of my design experiments under the premise that every card must either enable a specific archetype (i.e. Drake Haven and Life from the Loam) or must be playable in a variety of decks, even if it has the most potential synergy within a specific archetype (i.e. Tithe Taker and Pia and Kiran Nalaar). Sometimes you need cards that have more narrow effects as a means to help support a certain archetype, but that doesn't mean they should only go in those decks. For example, Faithless Looting is at it's best in decks with heavy graveyard and/or tempo elements, but that doesn't mean it's bad in, say, r/w aggro, it's just not necessarily as good. Compare that to a card like Nikya of the old ways which is an insane bomb in creature ramp decks, but is completely unplayable everywhere else. The goal, in my opinion, should be to have interesting specific build around cards, but then the rest of your cards should be playable in a variety of different strategies.
 
ravnic

ravnic

Oh yeah, I totally agree with what Trainmaster is saying. Another problem with those archetype specific cards is, that they can become essentially multicolor cards, which take up mono clored slots. For example, Guttersnipe is a strong card with a lot of spells, especially cantrips and other draw effects, nice to combo off with it. But those spell-focused decks are {U/R} in 95% or more of the cases in most cubes. Even if it would be possible to run it for a decent effect in let's say {R/W}, it is still probably pretty unlikely, thta the drafter doesn't want to go into blue for the best outcome to make sure, he doesn't end up with a Grey Ogre. My solution for this specific case was this guy:



He can't kill your opponent, but is still great in the spells deck. But he is also much more likely to see play in other decks. His body is super relevant and it doesn't take more than the threat of a potential instant in hand to make combat intimidating for your opponent. While Guttersnipe was 99% {U/R} , I already saw the Weaver being played in different color combinations, even in {R/G}.
 
Nanonox

Nanonox

I wholeheartedly agree with the point several of you are making- narrow archetype enabling cards are good, but you cannot have too many of them without the draft feeling on rails and limiting the creativity of your drafters.
To that end, I’m trying dbs’ artifact approach where a few spicy cards (Teshar, Marionette Master,...) are enabled by a solid colourless section. Those cards fit into existing archetypes but become busted with the right deck.

I also want a few cards like The Gitrog Monster that encourage you to build bridges between colours pairs outside of the “suggested” pairs. It seems like a low opportunity cost (1 guild section slot) and high potential reward. Are there cards like these that have worked for you?
 
sigh

sigh

I've found your suggestion of the Gitrog Monster to be an excellent example of what you are talking about.

I've also enjoyed Borborygmos Enraged, Gisa and Geralf, and a variety of others in different sections. I'd be a bit cautious, though, because no one card is quite as low an opportunity cost as you'd hope. Either you will have to carefully select these "one-offs" to fit into the rest of the cube, or there will have to be some other supporting structures in place to make the single cards work.

Speaking of, there is a neat thread called something like "single card archetypes" that has some good suggestions for this sort of thing.
 
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