Card/Deck Defensive cards

[Laz]

Almost every time I have rebuilt my main list, I have made it more and more aggressive. Curves have been lowered, aggressive colours expanded, more mechanisms have been added by which to turn traditionally slower cards into aggression. At every turn I have eschewed what I would deem 'defensive cards', cards which are good at blocking, that stall the game out. I still have a few in my list, but some ridiculous percentage (~70%) of my creatures have 2 or less toughness, so defensive measures typically tend to be attempting to craft profitable trades. As such, the best defensive cards available are not cards like Wall of Omens, or a dreaded Wall of Denial, but cards like Perilous Myr or Raise the Alarm.
I have opted for aggression whenever presented with a choice between comparable effects, choosing Lone Missionary over Arashin Cleric, Lyev Skyknight over Reflector Mage, etc.

I would be interested in understanding how other people have handled the balance between aggressive and defensive decks, whether other people have gone in the direction that I have, where defensive cards are also tools for aggressive strategies, or whether there is a more traditional balance, or even heavy handed defensive measures, such as Timely Reinforcements. What do early interactions look like in your list, and is there any mechanism to gauge how aggressive/defensive a list is?

 

[Chingonman]

The concept you are approaching is known here as aggro pushing I believe. And yeah you should be very wary of defensive strategies because they are easier to a) pilot and b) draft. In a cube draft you should try to leash those strategies. Worry not they will live on unless you are super extreme (ie no CMC above 2)*
Theres a lot of great articles here in Riptide and in CF by Jason and others about keeping aggro strong. Just another tip before you go off to reading them; Planeswalkers. I am sure walkers are the biggest watched-over cards in cubes for pushing control and midrange because they have absurd value. Think about it this way; no matter if the walker is "aggro" ( Ajani, Caller of the Pride) they will still stall the board a bit and "gain you life". Be extra careful about those sparkies.


*And even then I'm sure some enterprising cube designers can come up with slow grindy cubes with 2CMC.

 

[Meltyman]

And yeah you should be very wary of defensive strategies because they are easier to a) pilot and b) draft. In a cube draft you should try to leash those strategies.

This i don't agree at all.
Aggro wins in my cube with a good margin and they are usually piloted by people who hasn't played MtG that much.
There is a reason why new players should always draft an aggro deck in their first drafts.... it's easy to assemble and play.

Leash those strategies?
I guess you should leash every strategy, so nothing is over powered, eh?

Theres a lot of great articles here in Riptide and in CF by Jason and others about keeping aggro strong. Just another tip before you go off to reading them; Planeswalkers. I am sure walkers are the biggest watched-over cards in cubes for pushing control and midrange because they have absurd value. Think about it this way; no matter if the walker is "aggro" ( Ajani, Caller of the Pride) they will still stall the board a bit and "gain you life". Be extra careful about those sparkies.

I was about to say that the amount and power level of planeswalkers and wraths probably scale the most when adding stuff against aggro.

 

[Laz]

And yeah you should be very wary of defensive strategies because they are easier to a) pilot and b) draft. In a cube draft you should try to leash those strategies.

I would argue that this is supremely list dependent. Sure, in your generic MODO-style cube, it is easy enough to drop into UW/UB/Esper control and do well enough, but that is because aggro is really oddly implemented in that list.
I had a conversation last cube night about my list with a (mobile) games designer, and they made the point that aggro is very easy to draft in my list, not because it is particularly pushed (despite what the initial post seemed to indicate), but because it is really well sign-posted. Champion of the Parish screams 'draft me with Humans!', Abbot of Keral Keep and Young Pyromancer say 'pair me with lots of spells!', Bloodsoaked Champion and Bloodghast tell you that sacrifice effects are going to be strong. As a result of this, it is very easy to draft a functional aggressive deck that feels like it has a cohesive plan, and that is really rewarding to newer drafters, while because of their design, they present very interesting sequencing decisions, which results in them being easier to draft, but harder to pilot. On the other hand, and perhaps this was hinted at in my initial post, it is harder to draft slow decks, since there aren't really any obvious 'this goes in defensive decks'-cards, as virtually every tool can be used in an aggressive manner (like real tools!).
It is this sort of card that I was specifically attempting to draw attention to in the first post, do people run 'defensive-deck'-cards, how do they tend to play out and I suppose in a more nebulous manner, what indicators can you give drafters who either look at your list, or at a pack, that certain styles of play are more or less well supported?

 

[Eric Chan]

This is a great topic, and something that I've been thinking about for months, but never really tried to articulate. An old episode of Limited Resources, in which Marshall and Brian discussed building control decks in limited, had also got the wheels spinning about the differences between control in limited versus constructed. Basically, in constructed, you can rely on your suite of counterspells, removal, discard, and sweepers to keep the board clear, and maintain control over the game state, without having to resort to dirtying your hands in the red zone. In limited, that strategy is basically impossible - "draw go" control doesn't exist, and we really shouldn't be striving to support that as some "ideal" version of control as cube designers, anyways. Instead, we need to give the slower archetypes ways to keep up a board presence in order to defend themselves, so that their removal suite isn't stretched to the limit all the time. The example Brian gave in the podcast was Returned Phalanx in triple Theros draft, which I feel is apt - a cheap body that can hold the ground for a few turns, possibly scaring off several attackers in the meantime, while still being able to play offence later on in the game.

For cube, I've been thinking more and more about cards a) that can block well, b) provide some measure of additional utility or value, and c) aren't too oppressive to aggro strategies. However, at the power level that most of us run our lists at, the selection of creatures in this range tends to be smaller than you might think. I know that pure walls - creatures with defender and with no innate ability to kill attackers - are somewhat frowned upon, but I've included a number of them anyways, because of the dearth of good defensive bodies. Here are some that I like:



Stuff like Timely Reinforcements or Hornet Nest strikes me as too narrow - cards you wouldn't want to maindeck, but would only bring in as a sideboard swap for certain match ups.

The colour black is really frustrating to build as a cube designer. Even though Jason has solved the aggro problem, with cheap, recurrable attackers, today it remains harder than I'd like to build a solid B/U control deck without falling back on crutches like Grave Titan or Wurmcoil Engine. This is because one-for-one removal only goes so far; at some point, you want to save value by putting up a sturdy defender to hold the ground while you amass card advantage for the long game. Black has a paucity of cheap, early-game bodies who can hold the fort, which has made Typhoid Rats (!) surprisingly valuable in my cube. I'm thinking of including Graveblade Marauder in my next update, not because I'm particularly enamoured with a Horned Turtle with deathtouch, but because the black control deck desperately needs some help in stabilizing the ground.

 

[sigh]

It is this sort of card that I was specifically attempting to draw attention to in the first post, do people run 'defensive-deck'-cards, how do they tend to play out and I suppose in a more nebulous manner, what indicators can you give drafters who either look at your list, or at a pack, that certain styles of play are more or less well supported?

Imma actually also take the stance that control isn't really lacking pieces, its that aggro is helped along more relatively speaking. Control is the same old hodgepodge of "basically any jumble of removals, counters, draw, and finishers will do" but aggro has neon lights over it like "GO THIS WAY". Saying that though, control isn't even the same ol' cause we hurt it two ways by signalling the heck outta aggro and then systematically slowing control down by turns, or taking away some of the clearest signals (delve draw, Wrath of God, PW's, etc). To the question, I feel like some of these "defensive cards"/"control signals" are cards that this community has by and large shied away from for quite a while. They make control work in MODO-type cubes, and we've largely decimated their numbers in our cubes... could be a clear causation indicator for why riptide aggro is strong.

Some of my favorite cards that defend at least reasonably well:
courser of kruphix
hallowed spiritkeeper
wrath of god
firespout
arc trail
voice of resurgence
drown in sorrow
kitchen finks
day of judgement
immolating glare
linvala, the preserver
displacement wave
obstinate baloth
pulse of murasa
I think finding cards that definitely point to defensive is a tricky task indeed. This might be because you rarely build around one defensive card like wall of omens, but can def build an aggro deck starting with a bloodghast. That's not to say a drafter couldn't build around a defensive card, but my control decks usually start P1P1 around a bomb or land tbh.

EDIT: Riptide cubes also like to take out most mana rocks, which is a big part of the "classic" cube control deck. Also Eric pointing out the differences between constructed and limited is important. I won't first pick a WoO, probably, but the early interaction pieces are definitely important pieces I wanna pick up later.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

We have a tendency on here to talk more about individual cards than decks, and while I've been going on a mini-aggro crusade for the past 8ish months, there really isn't much discussion about what elements make up a control deck. Its essentially a brewing issue, at the end of the day.

Control decks generally want efficient one-for-one exchanges, while developing or getting ahead on mana, until they can start to cast their expensive many-for-ones, letting them get ahead on resources.

Recursive elements to get back essential resources is really critical, especially in cube, where you have limited access to answers and threats tend to be very diverse. It was so nice when I realized I could run mnemonic wall and archaeomancer without it being terrible, and the x2 set of bouncelands help immensely.

I'm open to other brewing blue prints, and certainly from other formats, but this is a pretty good place to start i.m.o.

There are lots of interesting ways to build control, as their are a multitude of expensive different many-for-ones they can run, and a multitude of ways to lock up or secure the game. As much as I do not really respect the UB teachings control decks in pauper, it is cool how they can sometimes get out x2 pristine talisman, and buyback evincar's justice to essentially lock my goblins deck out of the game. I like that build to a late game lock, kind of like counter balance/top in legacy or the old school disrupting scepeter/moat lock of weissmen control.

 

[genericco]

I think finding cards that definitely point to defensive is a tricky task indeed.

This is especially true if you're looking for cards that are ONLY useful as defensive stop-gaps. Right now I'm running Serene Master, Fog Bank and Stuffy Doll, having cut Cathedral Membrane among others. I can't recommend the limp Fog Bank.

I prefer stuff like Serene Master over Wall of Omens and Wall of Blossoms for a lot of reasons. Cantrips that cheap don't really represent an investment or commitment, and often end up as generically useful filler - you don't need to be running a defensive strategy for them to end up beating out more narrow cards for inclusion in decks. And there is (for me) unwanted synergy in bouncing them to draw additional cards or being picked as part of a Birthing Pod chain.

I agree with Laz's point in the OP that Perilous Myr really hits the sweet spot. Awesome play on this card.

A little bit of a spotlight:



Narrow but good at what he does: dissuading attackers without completely shutting down combat. In the right color - outside of White and Blue I'd only want half of the card to be defensive, ala Thrill-Kill Assassin or Wasteland Viper. Compared to those, a niche pick, below-average for the cube overall, which is where I think these cards need to be. These are his last three deployments:

Situation one - midrange vs. recursive aggro. Against a double blood-soaked champion board, managed to tie up 2 mana and prevent 2 damage a turn, until Mutagenic Growth cleared him out.

Situation two - control vs. WB aggro. Prevented attacks until Mikaeus, the Lunarch activations spoiled his triggered ability, at which point he could still block one a turn but couldn't kill anything anymore.

Situation three - pile control vs. R aggro. Shut down goblin guide & company for a bit. Removed by being taunted into attacking by Fumiko the Lowblood.

The card I like even more is Stuffy Doll, I'll probably edit in some thoughts about it later.

 

[Dom Harvey]

This seems like a question that you'd only need to ask here. As sigh said, mana rocks are a common feature of control decks in 'normal' Cubes; you don't need Signets, but Everflowing Chalice/Mind Stone/Guardian Idol is a decent start. If I'm drafting one of those Cubes for the first time, I can be pretty sure that planeswalkers + removal will add up to a solid midrange/control deck without much effort. Most of us have cut down on planeswalkers and cards that are independently strong, which naturally leads to fewer tools for control. If you want cards that can signal the presence of a control deck, explicitly defensive stuff like Condemn or Plumeveil is probably fine.

 

[Lucre]

Draw walls are more frustrating and often more damning for aggro than 1cc removal spells will ever be.
Losing a seeker of the way to card that only cost 1 less than it isn't oppressive.

 

[Chris Taylor]

What about ?

 

[Tanner K.]

Anyone ever tried Pride Guardian? I've never been able to bring myself to run it, it seems too annoying, but the 3 toughness might make it less oppressive than your usual 4-5 toughness walls.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Anyone ever tried Pride Guardian? I've never been able to bring myself to run it, it seems too annoying, but the 3 toughness might make it less oppressive than your usual 4-5 toughness walls.

I think you're better of running Temple Acolyte (or its younger sibling Arashin Cleric). Human synergies, 1 power, a mana more expensive, can attack.

 

[Eric Chan]

I don't like the 0 power lifegain guys very much - Perimeter Captain also falls into this category - because in practise, they were purely sideboard fodder against rush decks when I ran them. Even the most controlling of UW builds had trouble justifying a slot for a do-nothing, as it would be card disadvantage in the majority of matchups. Lone Missionary / Arashin Cleric and the like at least contribute a marginally useful board presence!

 

[Lucre]

What about ?

I'm all for making the game as frustrating as possible for my opponents but honestly Chris those games just sound boring lol, I guess I might pick that bad boy up 8-9th on the wheel from time to time and really ruin some guys game 2 with it.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

I'm all for making the game as frustrating as possible for my opponents but honestly Chris those games just sound boring lol, I guess I might pick that bad boy up 8-9th on the wheel from time to time and really ruin some guys game 2 with it.

Even back when I was running Doran, the Siege Tower (with copious fixing) and double Ajani Pridemate Nyx-Fleece Ram wasn't worth picking higher.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

Sea gate oracle is what you want: 3 toughness is surmountable, cantrips so you don't feel bad nuking it, and sifts for removal. 3cc means it suppliments a removal plan rather than replace it.

Running nyx fleece ram just seems miserable.

 

[Chris Taylor]

Admittedly a 8-9th pick defensive card is kinda what I'm looking for.

Like are aggressive decks slamming Threaten pick 2? No, they're wheeling it because it's only useful to them. A lot of the build around cards work the same way (Wildfire for eg) unless they really have a target on them (I've basically never wheeled goblin bombardment or blood artist, even though these cards have some pretty niche applications).

I think the fact that Ram patches up past damage for each turn they can't remove a 5 toughness creature (o.O) makes it a bit much, but I think I do kinda want a wall with like 5+ toughness (Since if you're investing this much mana AND it's also vulnerable to combat tricks as well as opposing removal spells, it better hit more than volcanic hammer does)

Hilariously, there's 3 walls that fit that description

Is fortified rampart really what I want here? o.O
Wall of Glare could be good, but it holding back two bears.... maybe?
And wall of shards looks like hot garbage

 

[Eric Chan]

Nyx-Fleece Ram probably averaged a 14th pick around here for the short time it was in... it's not really worthy of an 8th or 9th pick. And my list has had an enchantment theme!

I think Grillo is onto something, in that Sea Gate Oracle and Mnemonic Wall are perhaps the platonic ideals of defensive creatures. They provide mild roadblocks for aggro decks, can usually stop one attacker but not a whole swarm, and always net the caster some value, so that they're worthy of maindeck inclusion. It's for the same reason that I like Wall of Omens so much; you're never down a card, no matter the opponent. Then you have the category of general utility creatures that also happen to be good defensive blockers when called to do so - Epochrasite might be the poster child of this group. It works as a cog in sacrifice / Birthing Pod shenanigans, but is also perfectly acceptable as a speed bump for aggro decks, that they have to pay interest on later. A healthy sprinkling of creatures in both camps are probably necessary for slower decks to have a fighting chance, but it's only the cards in the first group that are likely to wheel and make their way back around to the control player.

 

[sigh]

I mostly don't like walls in cube that much, excepting the draw-walls (partially because the ftv:20 shiny Wall of Blossoms is awesome ) . I like things making trades, bringing value. I like lone missionary because it can gain you a good chunka life and then block a X/2 in combat. That's a good deal for 2 mana. And it's a fine card for aggressive white decks too. I like arashin cleric for pretty much the same reason, and that one can hold back 2/1's.
Azorius Arrester can be a cute little delay/trade away trick, also works in aggressive builds too, like the missionary
loam larva is probably quite low-power only, but provides good fixing and that 1/3 body
dream stalker is... something
blister beetle not super great or anything, but kills 2/1's like nobody's beeswax
mogg war marshal won't go to "defensive" players a lot, probably, but chump blocks for days.

EDIT: I also love 3 mana mini-wraths against aggressive strats. Drown in Sorrow should be run by more cubes imo. Laz even points out that there's a big portion of x/1 and x/2 in his environment. Seems like a decent fit. It could supplement Toxic Deluge for sure, without having that kinda swingy feel that deluge can have.

 

[Grillo_Parlante]

The issue is that a lot of control decks want to run sweepers as part of their many for one strategies, and you don't ideally want to be running out 2/1, 1/3, 0/4, or 0/5 bodies that don't net a card turns 2-3 when you are hoping to wipe the board in some capacity turns 4-6.

Thats a fine investment for midrange decks, which generally are just trying to use fatties as board cloggers anyways, but not really for control decks.

For example (going into weird low power world for a moment, hold on) One of the ways that my R/G or RUG control decks function is that they run cards like these:



These are all cards that you can drop early, and just buy some time with, so the control decks can build up their mana base, allowing them to hit a red sweeper:



Two of the cards even directly play into that plan by grabbing mana sources. The point is, if those cards are still around when you fire off your sweeper, its fine if they are sucked up in the wrath, because they already nabbed you a card. If they were run down thats still fine, as they still net you a card and preserved your life points by acting as a speed bump.

Mnemonic wall fills a somewhat different role for my control decks, as it allows reuses on critical pieces of removal in the mid or late game, which is really important for control decks that might have their removal suites being strained by removal disruption or recursion.

 

[Lucre]

Admittedly a 8-9th pick defensive card is kinda what I'm looking for.

Like are aggressive decks slamming Threaten pick 2? No, they're wheeling it because it's only useful to them. A lot of the build around cards work the same way (Wildfire for eg) unless they really have a target on them (I've basically never wheeled goblin bombardment or blood artist, even though these cards have some pretty niche applications).

I think the fact that Ram patches up past damage for each turn they can't remove a 5 toughness creature (o.O) makes it a bit much, but I think I do kinda want a wall with like 5+ toughness (Since if you're investing this much mana AND it's also vulnerable to combat tricks as well as opposing removal spells, it better hit more than volcanic hammer does)

Hilariously, there's 3 walls that fit that description

Is fortified rampart really what I want here? o.O
Wall of Glare could be good, but it holding back two bears.... maybe?
And wall of shards looks like hot garbage

Maybe a sb option that is less of a bad play experience, narrow pick and draft burden then? New cards might be the answer, defensive removal helps too and feels better in more decks. Epochrasite is a wonderful example to me of defensive fodder that fits in all over but maybe design removal spells that privilege control and midgame decks over aggro ones.

Honestly maybe this is a playgroup or greed problem but I think benthic seer is a great defensive tool. I know aggro decks want it too but I rarely see it drafted early and its a great speedbump that you wouldn't kind main decking if you aren't as greedy as me.

If you wana make good blockers use war marshal, epochrasite, Cathar, courser,, thragtusk, voice, blade spliced as your model and try to find a way to privilege defense in a novel way so they don't just end up lining the pockets of 2/1 decks. Another idea is putting in more dumb value bodies that stack up but do something like give you a land or making defensive creatures that can be sacrificed for a card.

 

[Chris Taylor]

Basically I'm going:

Colors that want walls:
Colors that have walls in my cube:

 

[Meltyman]

Spoiler

Admittedly a 8-9th pick defensive card is kinda what I'm looking for.

Like are aggressive decks slamming Threaten pick 2? No, they're wheeling it because it's only useful to them. A lot of the build around cards work the same way (Wildfire for eg) unless they really have a target on them (I've basically never wheeled goblin bombardment or blood artist, even though these cards have some pretty niche applications).

I think the fact that Ram patches up past damage for each turn they can't remove a 5 toughness creature (o_O) makes it a bit much, but I think I do kinda want a wall with like 5+ toughness (Since if you're investing this much mana AND it's also vulnerable to combat tricks as well as opposing removal spells, it better hit more than volcanic hammer does)

Hilariously, there's 3 walls that fit that description

Is fortified rampart really what I want here? o_O
Wall of Glare could be good, but it holding back two bears.... maybe?
And wall of shards looks like hot garbage

Wall of Omens and Wall of Blossoms isn't enough?
A wall with no positive ability is really boring. Why would you go for that really?
Does anyone play so hard that they want a wall just against those pesky aggro decks in the sideboard?
Not that i would add these in my cube, but i would rather see these in my deck / sideboard: Basilica Guards, Jeskai Barricade, Wall of Resurgence, Puncturing Light

EDIT: Wall of Resurgence might actually be sweet enough that i could see it in my cube also.

 

[Chris Taylor]

Wall of Omens and Wall of Blossoms isn't enough?
A wall with no positive ability is really boring. Why would you go for that really?
Does anyone play so hard that they want a wall just against those pesky aggro decks in the sideboard?
Not that i would add these in my cube, but i would rather see these in my deck / sideboard: Basilica Guards, Jeskai Barricade, Wall of Resurgence, Puncturing Light

EDIT: Wall of Resurgence might actually be sweet enough that i could see it in my cube also.

For the most part, either shit aggro decks or decent walls are what holds together a UW fliers strategy in most limited formats it exists in.

Aggro decks are the default in my environment, and even the control decks have creatures that they'll attack you with (As lucas has proved repeatedly!)
A wall, at it's base is (And there's a lot of mental shortcutting here) Immolating Glare, but you can switch it's target later (by blocking a larger creature).
Aggro decks won't want it where they would want something like glare: even if you're not being attacked all that often, it gets a creature off the board. A wall would just make that creature not attack, which stalls your plan of attack
UNLESS all your creatures have flying, and they can't block anyways!

Don't get me wrong, I love Wall of Cantrips (Both of them!) but I recognize their power: they're both such strong pure control cards I'm not really sure I should be including a second of either, and it's frustrating that there IS actually a deck that wants both of those, (Skies) but it's never EVER green and it basically has to slam wall of omens instead of being able to wheel a card nobody else wants like it's supposed to do with these narrow psudo-removal spells. Kinda the same reason we put condemn in, right?

Maybe this is all talking out of my ass and this hypothetical wall I want to add will just be 14th each and every time, but I do have the benefit of a largely expanded possibility space, so there might be something that works