Mnemonic Wall has been great and well-loved here. Use the Theros one for the better flavour text.
Card/Deck Defensive cards
- Thread starter Laz
- Start date
Mnemonic Wall has been great and well-loved here. Use the Theros one for the better flavour text.
I don't know if Mnemonic Wall is what Laz is after as a 'defensive card'. While it is technically a defensive card (it does have the word defender in its text box), what Laz it looking for is cards that can stave off the early attacks (to which I am assuming turns 1-4). Then you get to the point where you can play your game balancing card, be it something like Deranged Hermit or your fairly typical Wrath of God.
As I have said on several occasions, when people want to try and play midrange/control they will always find something to stave off the early assault. Be it just just some aggressive 1/2-drops that they managed to pick up or whatever, they will make it work. I don't think giving them explicit 'defensive cards' is what you want to be doing.
I really dislike walls, they don't promote any thought during combat. At least with something like say Augur of Bolas, you can figure out if swinging in for one will help you down the track.
Pretty much anything that replaces itself can be considered defensive, as Grillo has mentioned before (Sylvan Ranger has been way overperforming in the GB grindy decks for our penny grid drafts). Cards I am running in my cube that fit the defensive criteria:
All these cards can slip into an aggressive strategy if you so desire but the aggressive players should be picking up the one drops instead. Control never needs help. As long as you have some early spot removal for a control/midrange player to grab they will find whatever else they can to be able to play their Tamiyo and start to hold on.
I just don't want to see people go down the wall path. I would put Sylvan Ranger over Wall of Blossoms in my cube any day. It will still end up in the hands of the person who needs it, just won't be as frustrating for the aggro player.
As I have said on several occasions, when people want to try and play midrange/control they will always find something to stave off the early assault. Be it just just some aggressive 1/2-drops that they managed to pick up or whatever, they will make it work. I don't think giving them explicit 'defensive cards' is what you want to be doing.
I really dislike walls, they don't promote any thought during combat. At least with something like say Augur of Bolas, you can figure out if swinging in for one will help you down the track.
Pretty much anything that replaces itself can be considered defensive, as Grillo has mentioned before (Sylvan Ranger has been way overperforming in the GB grindy decks for our penny grid drafts). Cards I am running in my cube that fit the defensive criteria:
All these cards can slip into an aggressive strategy if you so desire but the aggressive players should be picking up the one drops instead. Control never needs help. As long as you have some early spot removal for a control/midrange player to grab they will find whatever else they can to be able to play their Tamiyo and start to hold on.
I just don't want to see people go down the wall path. I would put Sylvan Ranger over Wall of Blossoms in my cube any day. It will still end up in the hands of the person who needs it, just won't be as frustrating for the aggro player.
Laz
Developer
Kirblinx, I like your definition of a defensive card, and it dovetails very closely with mine. It is a card that creates a favourable trade of resources, though I cannot help but feel Tidehollow Sculler is something of an odd one out in your list. I find it is a more aggressive card, buying time by restricting you opponent's access to resources. I don't really like it as a defensive card as you can hardly throw it in front of an early attacker and consider yourself better off.
For clarity, I was mostly intending to create some discourse around how players create interesting early game interplay between their slower decks and their faster ones, as it is a topic I have been thinking about, but really struggled to determine what it was that tied those cards together.
For clarity, I was mostly intending to create some discourse around how players create interesting early game interplay between their slower decks and their faster ones, as it is a topic I have been thinking about, but really struggled to determine what it was that tied those cards together.
Yeah, I went a bit off the rail with Tidehollow sculler there. I don't know why I put it in there when I didn't put in Banisher Priest, I guess I just thought my list was a little light? It is more Thalia-esque in hindering removal with that two power instead of something like Brain Maggot, which is probably a tad low power and doesn't create a favorable trade of resources.
But remember, some people are happy when the miss with the Augur. They just go 'Eh, at least I tried'
Putting three cards on the bottom with Augur of Bolas means you are three cards closer to an instant and sorcery you might be wanting in your hand. Same reason I'm almost ok flipping 6 lands in modern CoCo, because now I've got 6 lands firmly on the bottom and out of the way. Obviously I'd have just wanted to hit, but it still serves a secondary purpose of sweeping chaff outta the way.
I do like Sylvan Ranger. If the card's gotta be more tanky than that, I'll just again point out loam larva. 1/3 with mana fixing effect ain't half bad.
To angle on how I interact early (beyond the kinda standard set of 2CMC doods Kirblinx and Eric have listed out), I tend to like removal that can do cool things. I dunno how many times I've yelled "INFEST DAMMIT".... but that's pretty much my philosophy in a nutshell. Recursive removal is A+ also. Darkblast is a super duper tool against aggression. Another thing that I've always loved against aggro is multiple bodies. Probably not a lot of surprises below, but eh
Some of these might not end up in the "slow" deck's hands, but can all serve a good purpose. As Kirblinx said, people will fill in with what works, that's what makes control inherently easier to support over aggro imo.
I do like Sylvan Ranger. If the card's gotta be more tanky than that, I'll just again point out loam larva. 1/3 with mana fixing effect ain't half bad.
To angle on how I interact early (beyond the kinda standard set of 2CMC doods Kirblinx and Eric have listed out), I tend to like removal that can do cool things. I dunno how many times I've yelled "INFEST DAMMIT".... but that's pretty much my philosophy in a nutshell. Recursive removal is A+ also. Darkblast is a super duper tool against aggression. Another thing that I've always loved against aggro is multiple bodies. Probably not a lot of surprises below, but eh
Some of these might not end up in the "slow" deck's hands, but can all serve a good purpose. As Kirblinx said, people will fill in with what works, that's what makes control inherently easier to support over aggro imo.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
The problem with loam larva is that it doesn't actually net you a card like sylvan ranger does. Its just a 1/3 for 2 as far as the games card advantage math is concerned. Augur of bolas can have similar problems, especially in cube where creature density tends to be much higher. This can make these cards generally bad to underwhelming in the cube as a whole.
I also dislike the 2cc 1/3 bodies since they really disrupt an aggro deck's game plan on the play in a way that feels arbitrary. Lone missionary is very strong because it blanks an attack and demands a trade for the aggro deck to keep up their assault. A 2cc 1/3 can completely stymie an attack made up of x/1s or 2/xs, and on the play can do so before the aggro deck even has a chance to swing. With a reasonable to strong draw you can get play patterns where the aggro deck is shut out of the game without too much difficulty, creating one of those uncomfortable zombie games where things go on for another eight turns before the aggro player realizes they could never had won and just scoops. Like Lucre has been saying, 1-2cc removal that encourages efficient mana trades feels so much better on both sides of the table.
Bone shredder is such a great card: kills a creature and than lingers around for at least a turn shutting down an attack, at a price point that feels fair both on the play and on the draw. It also has tons of graveyard/sacrifice interactions, and the body is piddling enough where its more of a control card than a midrange card.
I also dislike the 2cc 1/3 bodies since they really disrupt an aggro deck's game plan on the play in a way that feels arbitrary. Lone missionary is very strong because it blanks an attack and demands a trade for the aggro deck to keep up their assault. A 2cc 1/3 can completely stymie an attack made up of x/1s or 2/xs, and on the play can do so before the aggro deck even has a chance to swing. With a reasonable to strong draw you can get play patterns where the aggro deck is shut out of the game without too much difficulty, creating one of those uncomfortable zombie games where things go on for another eight turns before the aggro player realizes they could never had won and just scoops. Like Lucre has been saying, 1-2cc removal that encourages efficient mana trades feels so much better on both sides of the table.
Bone shredder is such a great card: kills a creature and than lingers around for at least a turn shutting down an attack, at a price point that feels fair both on the play and on the draw. It also has tons of graveyard/sacrifice interactions, and the body is piddling enough where its more of a control card than a midrange card.
The Lone Missionary example made me think: is Viridian Emissary a realistic consideration as a defensive creature? I never liked him because he was always kind of awkward, but maybe a 2-power blocker with a sweet death trigger is just what the doctor ordered.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
The issue with emissary is that if you actually want to ramp with it on curve consistently, its a poor card, since some decks can just ignore the body. Sakura-tribe elder is very similar but fits in a much wider variety of decks and is less clunky.
This is the same reason why ravenous rats is better than black cat.
This is the same reason why ravenous rats is better than black cat.
My favorite set of defensive cards is blue's suite of 1/3 critters for 2 mana. Sea Gate Oracle gets an honorary mention too.
Omenspeaker is one that I never see much talk about, but she's always impressed me in play. Also a big fan of Jeskai Sage and Palace Familiar.
EDIT: grillo's post above about them blanking 2/1s is spot on though. I typically shy away from Elite Vanguard and most of his variations these days, but if those are part of your aggro suite, be careful how many 1/3s you run.
Omenspeaker is one that I never see much talk about, but she's always impressed me in play. Also a big fan of Jeskai Sage and Palace Familiar.
EDIT: grillo's post above about them blanking 2/1s is spot on though. I typically shy away from Elite Vanguard and most of his variations these days, but if those are part of your aggro suite, be careful how many 1/3s you run.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Prowess and the many incinerates have made 4 the important wall toughness for me. Thing in the ice has been great for this very reason
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
what do we think of this (these) little beauties? Fits into defensive decks of any color, incidental lifegain, good blocker, whats not to love?
The fact that you're paying three mana for a 1/3? It's a pretty mediocre card imho, and I think there are plenty of colorless options at or below that cost that are better in a defensive deck, like...
Just to name a few.
Spoiler: I think the last two are near uncubable.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Bottle gnomes are amazing, just much worse in modern era magic, and without damage on the stack. Even in speed bump mode, they are are going to be at least a +6 life gain, and generally more, while brick-walling any smaller creatures. In cube, the ability to travel to the yard on command is valuable, and the incidental lifegain is something we should all want more of.
They are a strong defensive lifegain card, and thats how they should be assessed.
+ bonus points for being adorable.
They are a strong defensive lifegain card, and thats how they should be assessed.
+ bonus points for being adorable.
Many bonus points for being adorable
. I have at least one drafter who would probably seriously value it along that axis.One interesting thing I've noticed is that low cost colorless creatures seem to be tilted towards control decks more than aggro. Interesting...
May give the gnomes a run for kicks, to see what happens.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I believe the niche they fill is almost completely unique: colorless, lifegain creatures.
I say "almost" more as a formality: while their are alternatives, they are all vastly less efficient, being graveyard triggers with no built in sac. outlet, and costing over 3. Gnomes are a card that if your cube can tolerate, should certainly be on the radar.
The main question with them is: tempest or mirrodin art.
I say "almost" more as a formality: while their are alternatives, they are all vastly less efficient, being graveyard triggers with no built in sac. outlet, and costing over 3. Gnomes are a card that if your cube can tolerate, should certainly be on the radar.
The main question with them is: tempest or mirrodin art.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
This is almost certainly the only competition if you're looking for a colorless lifegain creature.
Edit: I wish this was a 2/4 (and Pierce Strider a 4/2)!
In my cube, this niche is represented by Brass Man.
Steel Wall comes in and out, depending on if I want to push control or not.
I ran Bottle Gnomes in the beginning, it was sometimes good, usually underwhelming, and power level has gone up significantly since then. Still, it's an adorable card. I wish they printed Vial Gnomes in Kaladesh as a slightly stronger version.
I actually DID run Yotian Soldier in the first version of my cube, when artifacts was as large a section as each color and I didn't really own many artifact creatures. It was better than it looked, and is a great equip target. I encourage you to try it in a low-power cube.
Steel Wall comes in and out, depending on if I want to push control or not.
I ran Bottle Gnomes in the beginning, it was sometimes good, usually underwhelming, and power level has gone up significantly since then. Still, it's an adorable card. I wish they printed Vial Gnomes in Kaladesh as a slightly stronger version.
I actually DID run Yotian Soldier in the first version of my cube, when artifacts was as large a section as each color and I didn't really own many artifact creatures. It was better than it looked, and is a great equip target. I encourage you to try it in a low-power cube.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
yeah, brass man is actually a surprisingly good card, though I don't consider them occupying the same niche.