General [Design Discussion] Perfect Imbalance

Yeah, I've found that increasing to my current 420 set-up has been the best fix for same-y decks popping up all the time. My initial drafts around a year back were of a 360 build that was tweaked based off of Waddell's cube. It was fun and all, but after 3 drafts I kept seeing the same decks over and over so I had to tone down the power in some of them and make more archetypes stretch across colors. Also had to redefine a few archetypes that weren't attracting as many drafters. Eventually I settled on increasing the size of my cube because there were a number of interesting cards I wanted to play with, but I couldn't justify it in a 360 set-up where it would often end up a 13th-15th pick. Worked out great, we still see the powerful Pod and Gravecrawler Aggro builds from time to time, but it's not always available so it forces drafters into trying out other archetypes. I've used the additional 60 slots to put in cards that help branch archetypes, sweet cards that help to further define existing archetypes, and I keep like 8-10 flex slots to just try out new stuff whenever a set is spoiled.

Would recommend bumping up to 405-420, 450 is personally too unwieldy for me. I also don't have enough room in my box.
 
Alex Ullman has a very good article on just this topic that I think you might enjoy. It used to be that there was a clear best spot removal spell in the format in the form of flame slash, but with the printing of gurmag angler thats no longer the case*. Counterspell and daze are the only good general answers in the format, which is partly why the only deck that can efficiently run them is 1/3 of the metagame.
Thanks for the article - it was interesting! One small note though: nobody much was playing Flame Slash when Gurmag Angler arrived as there was no high-tiered red control deck. UR control never recovered from the loss of Cloudpost and quickly became a minor player. Angler itself was bad against bounce and didn't last long in the meta, now being mostly absent. I think also when he's talking about interactive cards being relegated to the sideboard he's referring only to that Stompy build; the other decks certainly don't lack interaction.

Off topic, but Pauper has been my main format the last few years.
 
Would recommend bumping up to 405-420
Am exactly in this range now (416 at the moment). My playgroup finds the variance highly enjoyable, especially since they are mostly very casual and love seeing so many different and cool new things happen each session. And for me the designer, I love it exactly because the "power" decks don't always fall in line, and other decks get their chances to run free.
 
Back on topic: I agree with FlowerSunRain on pretty much everything.

The "solved meta" is a red herring, I think, as is the "rock-paper-scissors" notion.

With regard to the first, the "solved meta" of Constructed doesn't manifest the same way in Limited formats: even when Wizards have goofed and one colour is clearly the weakest, balance is in some measure regained once people understand this and fight over the "best" colour, sharing out the strongest cards more evenly.

With regard to the second, there are just too many formats in which just one of aggro, control or combo has dominated against the others. While aggro can play cards faster than control, three Savannah Lion equivalents running into an Arc Lightning is not a winning proposition. Aggro can race combo. Combo can protect itself against control. And - this is good! As FSR stated, "if your game is rock-paper-scissors approaching the end level of mastery, you've got a problem."
 
Worked out great, we still see the powerful Pod and Gravecrawler Aggro builds from time to time, but it's not always available so it forces drafters into trying out other archetypes. I've used the additional 60 slots to put in cards that help branch archetypes, sweet cards that help to further define existing archetypes, and I keep like 8-10 flex slots to just try out new stuff whenever a set is spoiled.
Do you find that drafters sometimes get a first-pick for an archetype but then fail to find support in subsequent packs? I like the idea of a larger cube, but I'm worried about archetypes being only "half-there" and someone discovering their synergy deck is just a little too low on synergy when they're deep into pack 2.
 
Do you find that drafters sometimes get a first-pick for an archetype but then fail to find support in subsequent packs? I like the idea of a larger cube, but I'm worried about archetypes being only "half-there" and someone discovering their synergy deck is just a little too low on synergy when they're deep into pack 2.

It could happen, but most of my drafters are used to retail drafts where they know that they can't just P1P1 a bomb and hope to build around it. Sometimes an archetype can just dry up. My drafters usually like to hedge early on cards that they can slot into the majority of decks then hedge into more specific cards 3-4 picks in. Usually the archetype defining cards like Pod or a Gravecrawler aren't first-pickable the majority of the time, so they keep track of where they see them in a pack. Like, if I see a 5-6th pick Gravecrawler, that tells me that it's likely that the other drafters aren't interested in being heavy black aggro most of the time. If I've seen a Champion of the Parish and Bloodsoaked Champion get passed midway through the pack, then B/W humans is likely to be open.

I try to limit archetype defining cards to not be as all-in (so stuff like Archangel of Thune) so that they aren't worthless later in drafts. I think the only one that comes to mind is Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas, but those U/B artifact decks are only viable if you pick him up early in pack 1 and can sculpt your deck around that effect.
 
With regard to the first, the "solved meta" of Constructed doesn't manifest the same way in Limited formats
-I'd argue that the two different meta's aren't even directly comparable. One is a meta that involves drafting, building with limited, varying resources, and playing; the other is one built around limitless resources up to the game rule limits, and playing. So maybe the direct comparison of the same exact decks seen time and again can't be made, but I think a cube can be figured out enough that the same X themes show up every time, or nearly. Variance in the session-to-session "meta" comes from variance in draft order etc, but I think averaged over time you'll get a stagnant "MtGtop8" sort of list.

With regard to the second
I definitely agree with this. More of a circular (multidimensional? Spherical? multidirectional!) spectrum than a spoked wheel.

Do you find that drafters sometimes get a first-pick for an archetype but then fail to find support in subsequent packs?
Rarely. Definitely a risk and variance the group and the designer must be willing to take.
 
Okay. Thinking about this. Going deeper.

I like first picking Flametongue Kavu. Jason likes first-picking Flametongue Kavu. MCMcEmcee likes having generically powerful, obvious first pick cards in the pool, so I'm just going to infer Flametongue Kavu.

An obvious, flexible, powerful first pick is appealing.

I think the problem arrives when you can chain a bunch of obvious first picks to make a goodstuff deck that's just better than the synergy decks and - importantly - requires little skill to pilot. A lot of obvious first picks aren't complicated in that regard. A widespread complaint about Standard back in the Alara days when Jund was dominating was that there was little room for player skill: t2 Putrid Leech, t3 Blightning, t4 Bloodbraid Elf into Blightning again, good game. Not much room to mess up with that deck and a decent hand. If the card pool lends itself to decks that more or less play themselves, I think there's a problem.

Does this describe even MTGO cube games I've played? I'm not so sure. I don't meet mid-range goodstuff in event finals often. Viciously fast reanimator or other combo decks, sure. Traditional control decks, definitely. Fast red and white aggro, yup. Mid-range goodstuff is slightly under-represented in my experience. Maybe others' experience differs.

On the other hand, if you're trying to introduce a cool synergy archetype into your cube, and it's not able to compete with Kitchen Finks into Flametongue Kavu, what to do? People like their powerful first-picks. How do you provide them with a safe choice when faced with those first 15 cards without overly powering up the goodstuff deck?
 
So maybe the direct comparison of the same exact decks seen time and again can't be made, but I think a cube can be figured out enough that the same X themes show up every time, or nearly. Variance in the session-to-session "meta" comes from variance in draft order etc, but I think averaged over time you'll get a stagnant "MtGtop8" sort of list.
Yeah, I'd agree with this. I don't think there'll be a single dominant archetype, because of competition, but a small number of them being pulled back and forth would fit with my expectations. Ramp, control, maybe tokens, aggro, etc - "known good" decks people can build nearly on autopilot. (I might start having to mark Wraths as blue-hybrid on CubeTutor).

I think changing the availability, value and nuances of these "known good" decks probably does require tinkering with the contents of the card pool - whether deliberately, or via a larger set of cards. The former does guarantee support for your themes is present, but the latter's less work.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Thanks for the article - it was interesting! One small note though: nobody much was playing Flame Slash when Gurmag Angler arrived as there was no high-tiered red control deck. UR control never recovered from the loss of Cloudpost and quickly became a minor player. Angler itself was bad against bounce and didn't last long in the meta, now being mostly absent. I think also when he's talking about interactive cards being relegated to the sideboard he's referring only to that Stompy build; the other decks certainly don't lack interaction.

Off topic, but Pauper has been my main format the last few years.


If you play on MTGO you can add me: Grillo_Parlante. I really like the format, but I kind of got tired of only 4 decks really mattering.

Flame slash was ran in goblins, and the U/R delver decks that were so popular when treasure cruise was legal, as well as RUG tron, and in affinity I think (don't really remember, as that deck is dead). When Angler showed up (after the TC ban) it broke the 4 toughness rule (myr enforcer, gray merchant, spire golem) which meant red burn couldn't kill it, it beat everything in a fight, and it being black and a zombie meant black removal couldn't really deal with it efficiently. The UB delver decks vanished, but it still gets played as a 2 of in MBC.

I was running a variant of the old rats deck listed in that article for a while, with 4 anglers, and its really funny what happens when you play that card against affinity, or any other deck that runs x/4s. I wouldn't be surprised if affinity's extinction was largely due to that card being played in MBC lists.

That argument is a pretty common refrain from him now-a-days, and I can't say I disagree. Decks are so efficient now you can't really dick around. I really love playing goblins, but even those lists lately have been sacrificing the grindy aristocrat cards I love in favor of more explosive starts.
 
I think the problem arrives when you can chain a bunch of obvious first picks to make a goodstuff deck that's just better than the synergy decks and - importantly - requires little skill to pilot.
If I could get the stars to align for the design of my cube, goodstuff decks featuring many independently powerful cards would have a 40% win rate. In relation to the noob cannon concept, I think it's good to allow for a simplistic strategy that less experienced players can still get some wins with.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
But isn't part of what makes this metagame happen the fact that you get different strategies, depending on what priorities (what picks) the players make with the resource pool your cube represents during a draft? Kind of like how a "highlander" moba (no double of the same hero on the same team) can create a meta game based on what team compositions are favored. It's the same pool of resources, but you're limited to what you use of that pool for any given round.


It's important to keep in mind the "size" of the pool you are drafting from. Cube is probably much more akin to a highlander moba with 12 champions than 100. We actually draft 100% of the resources (even if some end up in sideboards).

From my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong), a large part of what contributes to MOBA games' cycles are balance patches. I know there's more to it, but I've got to go to work now. Diatribe later!
 
If you play on MTGO you can add me: Grillo_Parlante. I really like the format, but I kind of got tired of only 4 decks really mattering.
Sophist. I'm rarely on there as of the last few months save to play Limited, Pauper got a bit played out for me also. Couldn't brew anything newish that stood a reasonable chance against Delver without being silly.

Flame slash was ran in goblins, and the U/R delver decks that were so popular when treasure cruise was legal, as well as RUG tron, and inaffinity I think (don't really remember, as that deck is dead). When Angler showed up (after the TC ban) it broke the 4 toughness rule (myr enforcer, gray merchant, spire golem) which meant red burn couldn't kill it, it beat everything in a fight, and it being black and a zombie meant black removal couldn't really deal with it efficiently. The UB delver decks vanished, but it still gets played as a 2 of in MBC.
I'd completely forgotten the U/R delver decks from the Treasure Cruise era - yeah, can understand them playing Flame Slash. I remember Goblins playing bolts rather than Slash, but I went looking and found one old list running Flame Slashes... but IIRC just before the Treasure Cruise era the meta was heavy with MBC running Cuombajj Witches, which made Goblins pretty unplayable; and Tron was never a high-tier deck. Affinity played Galvanic Blast, but that of course has the same problem with 5 toughness.

Galvanic Blast, Grasp of Darkness and Victim of Night all being bad against Gurmag Angler were IMO big reasons to run the card. I was excited by it and played around with it a bit, but Delver bounced it and laughed, or countered it leaving you with an exiled graveyard, and being bad against the predominant deck of the format struck me as pretty untenable.

I think Ullman's flat wrong when he said recently that Flame Slash was the defining removal spell of Pauper. A case could definitely be made for it in the Cloudpost era, but the big decks in the subsequent meta - Delver, Familiars, MBC and Affinity - didn't run it. (The removal spells they did run often cared about 4 toughness though). Not to say it's not a great card - it is - but you'd be hard pushed to find a point where even a third of the meta was running it even going back to the Cloudpost days. Arguably the defining "removal" spell of Pauper currently is Snap. :)

(I would've loved Flame Slash to be more defining; I had a brew for a bit that fairly reliably had Ulamog's Crusher attacking by turn 4, a storm shell reanimation deck. Sadly between Delver's Snaps and MBC's Victim of Night, it generally wasn't good enough even when Crusher was attacking on t3.)

I was running a variant of the old rats deck listed in that article for a while, with 4 anglers, and its really funny what happens when you play that card against affinity, or any other deck that runs x/4s. I wouldn't be surprised if affinity's extinction was largely due to that card being played in MBC lists.
Well, MBC's not precisely dominant at present, looking at the metagame stats. Delver and Esper Familiars currently have half the field between them according to mtgogoldfish, and the rest is pretty split, with MBC, Kiln Fiend and Kuldotha Jeskai making up the next quarter. Might be time for Affinity to reappear.

That argument is a pretty common refrain from him now-a-days, and I can't say I disagree. Decks are so efficient now you can't really dick around. I really love playing goblins, but even those lists lately have been sacrificing the grindy aristocrat cards I love in favor of more explosive starts.
Would agree it's pretty hard to play a grindy game against Delver and Familiar decks, though Kuldotha Jeskai looks a bit on the grindy side. I think the problem with Goblins is that time has left it behind; it's out in the wilderness with Tortured Existence, and the old aristocrats plan A just isn't good enough. It's natural to try and tinker it into some new competitive form, but I don't have great hopes there.
 
i've long moved away from the idea of trying to find a perfect ideal "balance" since i do not think it is possible nor worthwhile, it's more interesting to keep people in the discovery stage for most players imo.
fun is built on surprise and so that type of thing adds surprise. why do yall think im so big on theme cubes?

i thought the draft-RPS "metagames" were a big part of what were originally trying to move away from on this site

bad matchups are an inevitable side effect of actually varied choices in gameplay, but i see no reason to intentionally focus on them and encourage them. they're a side effect, not a positive.
drafts have always had a 'self-balancing' system where players will fight over whatever they perceive as strong that week, assuming that what the players think of as strong is shared.

this might be relevant to people's interests:
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1012211/Design-in-Detail-Changing-the
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
This is really interesting, I feel like this idea of perfect imbalance is almost a rorschach test of what people think of imbalance in general.

If imbalance is a natural part of cube, why not try to exploit it to at least extend the discovery phase for as long as possible?
 

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
From my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong), a large part of what contributes to MOBA games' cycles are balance patches. I know there's more to it, but I've got to go to work now. Diatribe later!

Yeah, balance patches are a huge part about what keeps the meta moving in a lot of games and why using League of Legends as proof of concept of "perfect imbalance" is so ridiculous.

A better description of the concept is something along the lines of:

"Don't worry if your game is balanced, just change it around every month before players figure it out, get frustrated, and leave."
 
A better description of the concept is something along the lines of:

"Don't worry if your game is balanced, just change it around every month before players figure it out, get frustrated, and leave."
the thing about this is that it describes mtg perfectly.
By extension, we've had the expectation of the same type of constant change forced onto our cubes.

In fact, I'd argue that it describes most popular multiplayer games, the games you might describe as exceptions to this are either extreme flukes and also probably had few players stick around once they are done with their personal discovery phase. (examples: marvel vs capcom 2, street fighter 2 super turbo, smash melee, counterstrike, quake, shit even games like chess). The success of all these games relied on so many factors that were far outside of the vision of the creators. I almost put starcraft broodwar in that list, but it had constant updates in the form of new 3rd party maps that constantly shifted the optimal strategies.

Note that all of these games (even chess) have been criticized for their longstanding imbalances!

And one might bring up that for example, in Super Turbo (a 20 year old game), Dhalsim beats Boxer, and Boxer beats Claw, and Claw beats Dhalsim. Seems like a simple enough RPS relationship, a metagame balancing thing. But the thing fighting games have is very simple: you can switch characters between games in a match, or between matches. You can go from being the control deck to the aggro deck. Imagine if in Starcraft, you rushed during game 1 in the first round of a tournament, and now you're stuck with your 5Pool Zerg Rush for the rest of the tournament, and that's it, no switching. That'd be ridiculous, it wouldn't make sense, unless such a strategy isn't just a simple RPS choice. But that's what trying to build RPS matchups into magic is equivalent to. and that's why they're undesirable.

Someone could bring up that fighting games have notably many possibilities to force through bad matchups with differences in player skill. But for every one of those, there's a thousand of these (i just found the last two by typing "dhalsim yun" and "3rd strike chun" into youtube without having any particular vid in mind!)
in a sense, that's sort of false hope. but in a lot of ways, mtg doesn't even give you that. and honestly that's not really a good thing, like i said, it's a side effect of actual good things. but at least in these other games, you can change your strategy mid-tournament. with regard to draft you're fighting over resources from start to end, and a sideboard doesnt really actually fix a bad matchup.

I'd also argue that MTG simply isn't an inherently interesting enough game to keep people entertained forever without constant updates and shifting. Or rather, the updates and shifting balance are part of what is inherently interesting about MTG. "Swing of the pendulum" to go for the maro-speak.

also "balance" means like 30 million different things to different people because I suspect there won't be any consensus on these questions:
if a matchup has a 50/50 win rate, but every time you draw card X you win that game for free, is card X balanced?
is a game less balanced if you have 16 equally good options and you add a 17th less good option?
if a game has 6 equal "character" choices, but 4 of them force you to make very similar strategic choices (and deviating from that is playing suboptimal), is this game more balanced than a game with 6 character choices where the characters are less equal but there are several optimal strategies?
in less confusing terms, if there's 5 exact copies of a character in a game, they are balanced, but there's a 6th character that is different that is worse, is that more balanced than a game with 6 very different characters?
is it more useful to talk about the full range of balance or ignore certain outliers?
Should every option even be viable? The answer is probably no, because then you could just pick cards at complete random during the draft and end up with a viable deck, right?
if there's a magic card that wins every game it's played in unless the opponent knows a secret password that counters that spell for no mana cost, is that balanced?
if a deck somehow existed where you could literally make no choices, but you would still win 40% of your games, is it balanced? What if there was no way to use skill to increase this rate about 40%?
is goblin charbelcher killing you on turn 1 balanced?
if everyone in legacy can play wasteland decks if they wanted to, yet the card "warps the format" around it, is it balanced?
 
ok, i didn't watch the video linked at the start of this thread until now and it's got a lot of problems

1) chess is not balanced between the two colors
2) chess is not remotely balanced between different strategies playstyles
Approximate chances: White win 39%, Draw 32%, Black win 29%
Estimated first move popularity:
e4 43%, d4 37%, Nf3 10%, c4 8%, g3 1%, b3 0.3%, f4 0.2%, Nc3 0.1%, b4 0.1%, all other moves less than 0.1%.
that's wrong, that's not why chess is all fixed strategies.
3) repeat after me: CHESS HAS NOT BUILT UP THESE FIXED STRATEGIES BECAUSE IT IS BALANCED! again: CHESS HAS NOT BUILT UP THESE FIXED STRATEGIES BECAUSE IT IS BALANCED!
that's straight up wrong! it's built up these fixed strategies because of one very simple thing: it is a fully deterministic perfect information game.
if you don't know what that means, it's simple: there's no unpredictability. there are literally no RPS elements, no dice, no drawn cards, no bluffing, no random number generators, and no hidden information. you know everything about the current game state, therefore for any move you can predict the game states that can come after without having to guess. the only limitation is how much information you can store. and people have played it for hundreds of years, so of course such a game has been reduced to much memorization!
4) everything he said about starcraft is wrong, it's the level of ignorant reductionism like the people that just say magic is just "who draws lands and who doesn't"
5) imbalance has literally no connection to "rote memorization" or "reflex skill". this a non-sequitur
6) "mathematical formula for what reasonably balanced" hahaha no
7) the thing about trying to figure out the differences in the power of things very much exists in starcraft and chess, again, it just shows ignorance about those two games. starcraft very much had a "cyclical imbalance" of builds. the expand > "playing standard" > rush > expand triangle very much was a real thing and again, based in hidden information, unlike chess!

so what's the actual argument here, that there's no "metagame" without imbalance? because that's not really accurate. for example, in rock paper scissors, new players tend to pick rock first. there are RPS tournaments where some players win more consistently than others, in a "perfectly balanced" game.
and if we restrict to character choice, i can name several games that had tremendous imbalance with no "metagame" of character counterpicks, a simple example would be the aforementioned marvel vs capcom 2.

yes, if choices are strategically different, this often leads to a graph-structure of relations between choices that hopefully is cyclical. this does not imply imbalance. and this does not have to occur at a character/deck selection screen, this can occur midgame (as is the case with starcraft or mvc2). but starcraft on one hand is considered 'extremely balanced' (questionable statement considering map imbalances), but mvc2 is 'very imbalanced'.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I would suggest focusing less on the video and more on the elements of the idea, which I attempted to present in the OP. I provided some real life examples from cube, which I think are helpful.

The thing with rhetoric to remember, is that just because an idea is presented poorly, dosen't mean its wrong, it just means it was presented poorly.
 
Now you've made me watch the video. :(

Where the heck did he get this notion that in chess you "can't create new strategies"? Having been a competitive chess player in a past life... opening theory runs out, and then you're very much on your own. Practically every game that goes past four moves ends in you manufacturing a route to victory on the spot. And unless you're at grandmaster level, you're probably at the very most only about six or seven moves in by the point your personal grasp of opening theory's shrugged and moved on; grandmasters might push it out to a dozen, though some of them deliberately steer into uncharted territory as fast as possible (e.g. Magnus Carlsen).

And, importantly, the chess "metagame", the perceived best strategies, slowly shifts. My old favourite the King's Gambit, huge well into the 20th century is now a rare visitor to top-level play.

Ugh.

Also, there's a lot of the same problem as David Sirlin's stuff: it doesn't appear the presenter has any grasp of a game that has significant strategic depth. In Sirlin's case, he knows fighting games pretty well, and is misled into thinking the same lessons apply to strategy games, but since he hasn't really been exposed to reasoning about complex persistent game state he has a complete blind spot about it, talks about strategy without ever addressing what actual strategy is, and is addicted to the minigame of guessing what the opponent will do next. To describe Sirlin's blind spot in Magic terms, it's putting all the focus on reading the other player's intent while ignoring the strategic elements (e.g. mana curve, card advantage, etc) and the more calculated tactical elements (sequencing, choosing where and how to deploy your removal, etc). I mention Sirlin in particular because he's one of the noisiest proponents of the rock-paper-scissors approach to strategy.

Metagames with asymmetric options are different than raw strategy, and rock-paper-scissors is a slightly more relevant model there, but, generally, my feeling is that a deck type you're trying to support in your cube should, drafted and played right, be able to hold its end up against most of the other decks in the cube. And this is an ideal that might not be met in reality, and maybe the most perfect deck you'd make from your 360 is unanswerable by anything else in your cube, but once people start fighting over its pieces and dividing them up some kind of balance is regained. You only really have a problem if your nuts version of an archetype can't compete with merely okay drafts of other archetypes, or it's poison.

Or, rather, you should expect imbalances to arise from the simple random elements of drafting, there's no need to put them there on purpose, and if a single indivisible pick is too good or an archetype is too bad, that needs looked at, but otherwise... it's probably okay.
 
dude sirlin is joke with fighting games too lmao

also if you think fighting games don't have "significant strategic depth", well.... that's a debate that perhaps should not be had in this thread
 
Grillo - I don't think you would have presented the examples from cube as you have without the ideas from the video as guidance. Partly I think this because I don't recall ever actually observing an example in real life cubing that worked that way. In other words, I think the data's being adjusted to fit the theory.

What I think actually happens is that as a black drafter, at some point I learn the lesson that I need access to diverse removal in order to handle a range of resilient threats. This improves my drafting, and after that, I maybe start picking up an edict as a complement to the rest of my removal suite - getting a first edict has more value to me than taking the third Terror effect, even though the latter effect is more generally useful. This is general drafting skill. There may be over and beyond this a level of format knowledge, where I know that hexproof guys are common here and prioritise edicts further. I don't really get into wondering whether other drafters are taking hexproof guys. For a start, doing so is bad strategy until you've exhausted all other available edges, and I've profited against it many times over the years: you don't aim to defend against what you hope your opponent will play, but what you fear they'll play. This is fundamental game theory - minimax - winning by not losing. It manifests in different ways in different deck types: decks that aim to specialise in answers need a variety of answers capable of dealing with many different board states while having the majority of them able to deal with the most common cases; threat decks similarly want to diversify their threats, as long as it doesn't cost too much of their efficiency and leave them weak and slow against other such decks.

If you have access to everyone else's playlists - sure, you can discard a lot of things you fear they'll play and optimise your deck accordingly, and over time, as they optimise back against you, things will shift, and occasionally even shift cyclically, though I think that's much less common in Magic than the theory tends to suggest. But in Limited? I don't think it works like that.
 

FlowerSunRain

Contributor
the games you might describe as exceptions to this are either extreme flukes and also probably had few players stick around once they are done with their personal discovery phase. (examples: marvel vs capcom 2, street fighter 2 super turbo, smash melee, counterstrike, quake, shit even games like chess). The success of all these games relied on so many factors that were far outside of the vision of the creators. I almost put starcraft broodwar in that list, but it had constant updates in the form of new 3rd party maps that constantly shifted the optimal strategies.
I'd say that what you term exceptions are in truly great games and whether that comes about by a fluke or not it is what game design should aspire towards. Over time I've played many forgettable games and have grown less and less patient with the mediocre, I'm really not feeling the idea of clinging onto a game just for the novelty of microchanges between versions.

On a tangent, MvC2 gets a lot of pointless shit for being unbalanced. I mean, yeah, Hayato is completely and utterly unplayable in that game. Sure, that's a given. However Hayato is also completely unplayable in Starcraft. Blizzard made no attempt to make Hayato a playable character and yet they get no grief for their failure to balance him. That Capcom attempted to include Hayato in their game and failed miserably doesn't make the game any less balanced. If you hack a copy of MvC2 and remove him from the character select screen, the game does not become more balanced. Within MvC2 there is a game that is extremely skill testing, entertaining, strategic and viscerally exciting. The fact that there are a bunch of useless characters and assist types doesn't diminish that. It is added value for casuals who want 56 characters to pick from while they mash buttons (p.s. this is my level of skill). The competitive game that exists has plenty of depth, people focus on seeing the same single digit number of characters each time not realizing that the combinations are actually providing huge strategic variety. By that logic, Chess is imbalanced because one person always plays black and one always plays white.
 

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
So...heres the thing.

The video lays out a concept, provides a list of elements, and than selected a number of examples that it viewed as illustrative of those elements. Here, clearly, the illustrative examples provided, are occluding the actual topic. This happens sometimes in discussion, but I think we can move on at this point.

We are also reading way to much into the troll/edict illustrative example, which is (as stated) a simplified illustration. I think I need to step back a little bit, and repost a few contributions that were very helpful in clarifying the actual phenomenon.

I'd also like to note that these meta game cycles as described here (A->B->C->A) can be seen as an oscillation.

An oscillation is either stable and continous to cycle indefinitely, or there is some damping that causes the oscillation to slowly die out.

Now, oscillation is usually describing some kind of shifting between amplitudes of a signal or mechanical movement so it's not a perfect analogy, but my idea is that just as an oscillation is dependent on certain criterias to be met (the troll and edicts if you will) you can alter parameters to get another behavior of the cycle.

In less analogous terms; you can stir up a solved meta by changing the contents of the resource pool (the cards in your cube). We all know this as the de facto method of keeping a format alive, both for us as cube designers and for WotC with ban lists.

An excellent way to describe it! And to further ourselves down the technical rabbit-hole, our damping could be attributed to the "knowledge" variable (to a degree). If the player's never really progress in their understanding of the optimum, the cycle will continue (A B C A) etc. Only very experienced players can probably "damp" it down to a negligible amount. At this point, a change in resources can kickstart the whole process again. To continue using our little Troll, taking out all of the edicts would stir this little relationship up a lot. Now maybe the best way to combat the Troll is with token strategies that can chump block. From there, board wipes may become more valueable, and then back to the Troll. The cycle is reborn.

A good point, and cyclical is indeed simplistic at best (and yes frustrating). But a cube is far too multi-variable to analyze as-is. So cyclical ABCA is a good model for understanding. XvY is another. And any new meta will almost guaranteed have to be multidirectional to a degree. Before people even know what's what about X v. Y, they have to play around with the options out there, and this can be kinda "circular". Maybe more experienced players will finish this almost immediately and move to XvY, or ForceThisThingAlways, or whatever. Almost no model is a complete farce, just more accurate in some situations and at some times.

I even hint that the actual real world manifestation was more complex than ABCA, but (as sigh noted above) the number of variables in cube make it exceedingly difficult to describe with any model.

In real life thats actually something that happened. Troll (and lumberknot) found themselves on the short end of more than a few goblin bushwhacker charges. Another cute play against durable threat decks has been chump->sacrifice with tymaret, the murder king to slowly bleed them to death. It turns out having an awesome hexproof dude doesn't do you much good if you are falling behind.

The simplified ABCA model was just the least cumbersome I could devise for illustrative purposes.

I don't mean to come across as condescending, but I feel like we are really missing the forest for the trees here.

Lets step back and look at the forest for a moment here. Historically, cube formats get solved. This should not be an argument, given the number of references I see towards "dragon formats", "good stuff formats", "Grim Monolith cubes" or phrases like "MODO drafting." People min/max these formats until they come up with a drafting strategy that allows them to do well, and by and large seek to repeat said strategy, until everyone is miserable/bored. I know I am not the only person that has been there, because I read about it on the forum, or get PMs about it.

Now what most people do to combat this is make fairly constant card swaps, which I think is ok in certain circumstance, but quite poor in others. As someone who finds cube an enjoyable hobby, and an opportunity to actually engage in game design on some level, it feels like a cop-out. In addition, I have drafters that don't like the constant swaps because it sometimes can feel like you are playing a never-ending beta.

Now, if my format can naturally have the tools needed to address a dominate deck type, than I don't need to solve this problem by patching in cards, which I like.

Let us also acknowledge that card evaluations can (and have) changed in limited formats over time. The spider spawning deck is testament to this. This means yes, we should be able to (at least for a time) create self regulating environments in a limited format of MTG.

The troll example I provided is a binary example. The troll represents that initial dominant deck, and the edict represents the controlling tech that prevents the dominant deck from being the format solution. This is the big picture.

Now, I have found that smaller meta chain are quite enjoyable as well, and this is because they provide a space for card evaluations to change and grow as players grow more knowledgeable of the format. One thing at a time though. Let us first talk about mechanisms that allow a cube format to self-regulate in a healthy manner.
 
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