General Designer vs. Player

Something I've noticed while fiddling with my cube(s) is that there's a very real tension between what I want out of a match as a player, and what I want out of the environment as a designer.

To give just one example of this, I love creatures with good ETBs as a player. As a designer, however, I hate them. I want to have an environment where bouncing an opponent's creature is a good tempo play... which doesn't work well with strong ETBs.

Am I the only one who has this "issue"?
 
I think part of the tension comes from the player role wanting to maximize the performance of their particular draft deck, whereas the designer has to balance all potential decks simultaneously. The shift from designing for every player, and being one of those players later on, might be why cards would be evaluated so differently.
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
I think the beauty of it is that the Player will look for the best ways to navigate a format. If the Designer decides to not include (too many) good ETBs, the Player will have to work with that and latch onto something else. As long as the format is fun and entertaining, I don't think the Player actually wants good ETBs, it's just that they gravitate towards good ETBs if an environment offers them.
 
Yep, exactly!

The player has eyes on themself. Win-maxing and sometimes fun-maxing. The designer is responsible for everyone and is constantly evaluated by the participating players through drafting, deck building, gameplay and discussions around the table. This is greatly amplified if the designer includes custom cards/rules into their environment. As designers we are Wizards of the Coast proxies and need to take our ‘jobs’ seriously if we want players to have fun, feel challenged and rewarded and if we want them to keep coming back to our cube sessions.
 

Jason Waddell

Administrator
Staff member
Yeah, I think this falls in the bucket of "what's good in your cube isn't necessarily what's good for your cube". Whether you want strong ETBs or not is harder to quantify.

Stronger ETBs will not only make bounce worse (unless you're doing self bounce/blink), but also your Doom Blades. I do think bounce can still be a strong tempo play in a format with strong enter the battlefield effects, as long not everything has a good ETB. You might not want to bounce their Blade Splicer, but if you have another target like Polukranos, then you'll still have a strong tempo response.
 
I do think bounce can still be a strong tempo play in a format with strong enter the battlefield effects, as long not everything has a good ETB.


I agree! I think you can kinda have your cake and eat it too, because it's good to have a powerband that includes both a lot of "good" cards but some excellent cards. If you want a format mostly devoid of ETB effects, you can always include only a few to really give players those "bomb" cards that help stand out in a pack. Similar to how you could run a format with mostly 3-4 mana instand speed removal, but still run doom blade and lightning bolt because they stand out so much.
 
I think obsessing with my cube(s) has turned me more and more into a designer. I don't really enjoy high power level as just that anymore. I prefer draft environments, where cards are smaller pieces of the puzzle and the games can evolve enough to let you see more cards and make more decisions (which actually matter). I mean, when I am drafting on a arena for example, I will take that God-Eternal Oketra, but I will not really enjoy winning with it. In the same format, I got much more pleasure from that deck with four copies of Charity Extractor and Huatli, the Sun's Heart, even though I got less wins.
 
Unsurprisingly, I'm a much better player than designer. I often know there are better ways to do things, but I don't have the skill or knowledge to implement them.
 
Unsurprisingly, I'm a much better player than designer. I often know there are better ways to do things, but I don't have the skill or knowledge to implement them.


Eric, this isn't the first time I see you belittling yourself and you need to stop! You have a great cube that I (and I'm sure others) look toward for inspiration. Plus every time you draft my cube, you build a great deck and leave thoughtful comments. Give yourself some credit :)
 
Eric, this isn't the first time I see you belittling yourself and you need to stop! You have a great cube that I (and I'm sure others) look toward for inspiration. Plus every time you draft my cube, you build a great deck and leave thoughtful comments. Give yourself some credit :)
Ah thanks Nanonox! Don't worry, I don't mean it in a bad way. It's just that my critical skills are much better than, well, my design ones. I'm having a lot of fun building the cube and learning so I'm ok.

And I'm glad you find my decks useful! I always love when others draft my cube, it gives me lots of ideas.
 
Particularly when designing archetypes and ensuring they are supported, the player and designer roles get mixed up easily. The designer just wants to provide the player the tools they need to be able to draft the archetype. This, plus the powermax philosophy (always replace a card with a better card), makes a lot of cube designers get used to wearing the two hats at the same time. There's also the fact that people are used to being deckbuilders, and they treat building a cube as an extension of deckbuilding.

It's not too different a mindset when an archetype is being built from the ground, or needs to be strengthened, but for all other situations, thinking as a player and as a designer should be two very distinct processes.

The most important distinction is what you are optimizing for. As a player, you're mostly optimizing your deck's win rate. In any (2-player) cube, the average of deck average win rate is 50%. That's not the point for the cube designer. The cube designer should optimize for fun, whatever that is to you and to your playgroup.

A player doesn't usually think much about "what makes games fun". A game and cube designer's most important task is answering this question. I'll bail out from debating what "fun" means here, and treat it as this abstract, magical metric too. I'll try to write something longer about what I think people find fun in Magic and Cube, but for now, I'll just list the main aspects I've been trying to optimize and balance in my cube, each of which I believe to either translate into fun or avoid problems that get in its way:
  • Agency: how much a player's decisions influence their win rate.
  • Resonance: how familiar the game's concepts are to the players.
  • Elegance: how easy it is to grasp what a card does, and how easily it does it.
  • Variety: how different the player experience is from one draft to another and from one game to another.
  • Stability: how much knowledge players keep about the cube from one session to the next.

A practical example



When I, as a player, think about whether it's worth replacing Watchwolf with Fleecemane Lion, it's straightforward. It's better. If I have the card, I replace it. If I don't, I consider if the price difference is worth it. When I, as a designer, consider the swap, I have to think about all those aspects:

Agency: Fleecemane Lion has an activated ability, and though the choice of activating it or not when it's being targeted is easy to make, whether to leave mana up for it, or whether to activate it mid-combat and open yourself for removal is an interesting choice. On the other hand, depending on removal quality and creature sizes, the opponent might less agency if they can't deal with a Fleecemane Lion because of hexproof and indestructible. This is a mixed bag, and I personally count it as a negative for the swap.

Resonance: Fleecemane Lion is a reference to the Nemean Lion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemean_lion), and people who get that reference will immediately grasp why the card works like that. People who don't will probably have to memorize the card, but one day, when watching a random Youtube video about Greek Mythology, it might just click. I don't really understand Watchwolf and couldn't find any lore references to it. I count this is a positive change.

Elegance: Watchwolf's obviously simpler, and what the card says without any words is "here is a reward for playing Selesnya and fixing mana, you get to play ahead of the curve." This is pretty elegant. Fleecemane Lion says the same thing, but also "... and here's a subgame: you get to make this immortal for five mana, but your opponent might kill it in response." It uses a set mechanic and two evergreen mechanics to do that, and a counter with a state change that's mostly represented by the counter, but not exactly. It's pretty inelegant, though if you know the greek mythology trivia the resonance largely offsets this. Still, the swap is a clear negative in elegance to me.

Variety: At lower power levels, the game becomes about Fleecemane Lion, reducing the variety of gameplay. Also, it may be an auto-include for decks that can support its mana cost, and auto-includes reduce variety of decks. At higher power levels, this would be a positive actually, because Watchwolf would be unplayable, and something that moves the maindeck rate towards the average increases card variety.

Stability: Learning a new environment is daunting. To be invested in an environment, players need to have some stability, so that the cards, combos, tricks, archetypes, and everything else they learn in a draft carry over to the next. This change would be beneficial if Fleecemane Lion was a previous holder of the slot, but is a negative one otherwise, and very negative if Watchwolf had been in the list for a long time. Yes, this is a reason to keep sacred cows in a cube.

I took an example where it's very easy to decide for the swap as a player, but most of the time cards that aren't strictly better, and being a player/deckbuilder is more interesting than I described. Still, the breakdown of what aspects you should consider as a player (can you mana base support it? Is it good when lagging behind? Is it terrible against agressive decks?) are a subset of the aspects it's useful to think about as a designer.

And that's why designing cubes is hard and awesome.
 
Something that has come up from time to time is complexity and elegance in card selection. You, as a designer, know all about your cube. You can name all the cards, all the archetypes, everything. But our players don't.

For example, I think self-mill, discard synergies, Laboratory Manic combos and other Riptide standards can be difficult for less experienced players.
 
Yeah, but I find it interesting to design an environment with some of the 'typical' archetypes (go wide, +1/+1 counters, blink, control, for example) that even newer players know or recognize easily, but also with some more 'hidden' strategies my players need to get aware of (which is exciting!), just like the selfmill deck that wants to win via Spider Spawning or LabMan (or value through baronesque cards like Loaming Shaman) to reward players for drafting skills. this is btw one of the many good things original Innistrad brought us, maybe the greatest draft format of all time.
 
WotC is a huge fan of this design principle, usually called "lenticular design" by MaRo and others. Designs that are functional and simplistic to new players, but that get deeper and more complex as your knowledge increases.
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Something that has come up from time to time is complexity and elegance in card selection. You, as a designer, know all about your cube. You can name all the cards, all the archetypes, everything. But our players don't.

For example, I think self-mill, discard synergies, Laboratory Manic combos and other Riptide standards can be difficult for less experienced players.

I, of course end up being too close to the design and focus in on my intent rather than figuring out what actually works

GW +1/+1 counters has been bad for the lifetime of my cube and I keep drafting it because it's open
 
That's interesting, since some people here said that they needed to power down their counters deck, some even multiple times (I think James and Onder were the ones).
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
That's interesting, since some people here said that they needed to power down their counters deck, some even multiple times (I think James and Onder were the ones).
Can confirm. I distinctly remember a finals between two GW counters decks. That's how deep the theme was.
 

Dom Harvey

Contributor
I did 3-0 with RG Counters in Chris' Cube in the before times! When all your creatures are bangers the removal is less of a problem
 
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