General Dual Land Cycles

So wanted to toss out an idea I don't think I've seen anywhere. Might be a bad idea but seems sort of interesting.

OK, so how many dual land cycles are there now? like 10? More than we can fit in cube anyway. That's all I know. This is especially problematic for smaller cubes. My 360 project right now has room for about 40 dual lands. But 4 cycles just forces me to make choices I'm unhappy with - either a bland setup or something convoluted with a million exceptions.

A lot of people have moved to a customizable setup. So theoretical scenario - Grull is aggressive in my cube, therefore I should favor lands that do not ETB tapped. That's an OK solution, but it winds up pigeonholing color combinations that I feel stifles creativity. Sticking with Grull as an example, I pushed aggro early on and it never really happened. And then GR Wildfire became a thing for awhile (totally not aggro) and faster lands were fine but it didn't really have to be setup that way and felt counterintuitive.

So a new idea... what about assigning a cycle to a specific color? You still can't run all 10 cycles - and you'd probably want to run the full set of shocks/fetches in many lists anyway. But the other stuff maybe we can split out in a more interesting way and less limiting way. Take creature lands as an example. Do people like running 10 of them? I've defended that for awhile actually, but there's fatigue that sets in when every deck plays those and you constantly have to design around their existence (a bit like the 5 swords situation). Were we better off when there were only 5 dual creature lands? I think we certainly were better off when only 2 swords existed.

My take at making color cycles... So each one is just 4 of the 10 lands basically.

BLUE - Bouncelands.
Blue decks like the CA and bounce is a blue thing. Super in flavor here. The easiest one to do.

GREEN - Creaturelands.
Another obvious one. Green does creatures. That's the color's thing. So they get creature lands. Bam.

WHITE - Filterlands.
It gets harder from here. Mainly this is a functional choice. White has so many damn WW cards and trying to splash another color makes that awkward in deck building. Filter lands I feel are solid for heavy white decks with splashes.

BLACK - Painlands
Life loss is a pretty solid black theme and it's also a really aggressive color (at least in my cubes it ends up that way). This feels like a good fit.

RED - Temples
I don't know. There are a decent number of red cards with Scry (second most by color according to gatherer - blue of course dominates). So it's not horribly misplaced. Red is aggressive so ETB tapped here might seem off, but at the same time I feel red is most often stereotyped as nothing but aggro. And it really should (and can be) more interesting than that.

Cool thing about this is you get 5 cycles that fit neatly into 20 cards, effectively taking 60% less space but still giving you variety and some flavor.

Thoughts?
 
This is an interesting concept that kind of feels like a rehashed version of the whole, I'm going to put Temple of Enlightenment in my UW section because UW=control and I'm going to put Karplusan Forest in my RG section because RG=Zoo. It feels like that but with with broader strokes.

The more I think of this idea, the less I think I like it?

Just for reference, these are the images of the lands by color pair as I understand them


I think my biggest gripe with this is that you're giving lands to different color pairs that operate at different speeds as well as giving some color pairs access to creature lands which is a huge advantage. People say Lavaclaw Reaches sucks but I've seen one hit for 10 damage and it fixed their mana. I think for this idea to succeed you'd have to choose what speed you want your lands to go at while still balancing the needs of the format, etc. Even in my UW control deck I think I would rather play Seachrome Coast over Azorius Chancery if my opponent's mana fixing consisted or Painlands and Fast lands.

Additionally, I think some of these lands kind of have to have formats be designed around them. The Karoos are the biggest offenders of this. In a cube that isn't designed like the Penny Pincher cube, I don't think the karoos will be very good and then you have to worry about the whole having them accidentally get destroyed thing.

I actually don't know if we have enough cycles for all of the lands to be operating at the same speed. The buddy lands and Filter Lands might be able to bridge the gap between land speed though I'm not sure.

I think the biggest tragedy of approaching lands as cycles is that Horizon Canopy doesn't get played as much as it should.

Edit: Shoutout to this website. It's really nice for looking at dual land cycles. http://manabasecrafter.com/commander/bruna-light-of-alabaster
 
Yeah. Horizon Canopy is a powerful card and probably one of the stronger arguments for having a mix/match dual land philosophy.

I'm uncertain about which cycles belong where. Thanks for laying them out visually.

TBH, the only one that seems really logical to me is creature lands. I know they are powerful but should all colors get them? Why? Counters are powerful. Removal is powerful. Card draw is powerful. Do all colors get that stuff? From a design standpoint, I really like the idea of being forced to run a Gx deck if you want access to creature lands. Green so often feels like an afterthought in cubes - it ramps and apparently that make it cool enough. When I think of green in cube, I'm often reminded of idiocracy - Electrolytes, it's what plants need. Don't know why.

Bounce lands are virtual card advantage. Yes, you can design a cube around taking huge advantage of them - making them even better. But they are very playable in a general cube. They are first pickable in Penny Pincher due to the design. In a more traditional high powered environment, they are lower picks but still something most blue decks are going to be happy to run. The mechanic of one card giving you two sources of mana is super powerful for slower decks. LD and unrestricted bounce is problematic but most cubes have really dialed those effects down, so I'm not convinced you have to do much on that front. It's been a long time since people were running Boomerang.

The other cycles are harder to really justify. And this idea gets sketchier when we start looking at those. I still think the theme idea is solid though. Maybe temples are a white thing instead of red? Shifting some of this around it might look more appealing. Keep in mind too, this assumes two or more full cycles on top of what we are doing here - say shocks/fetches as baseline. So it's not like you can't still get faster lands in colors that end up with two ETB Tapped lands. To some extent, that would (or could) drive your guild identities a bit. And it feels a little more holistic even. White is the color of "X". So when you look at guilds, that just naturally becomes part of what those combinations will be about, etc.
 
With the creature lands I really like taking an all or nothing approach because they can win the game on their own. Having a threat that can fix your mana just seems like it's in a different league than getting to scry in RW deck or gain a life in a UW deck. The biggest gripe for me is definitely the, I have mana fixing that can also become a threat, scenario. I know different colors have different strengths and weaknesses but adding a threat in the form of mana fixing to only some colors just doesn't seem balanced (and even then, Celestial Colonnade blows Lavaclaw reaches out the water)
I agree that green in cube is often an afterthought and although ramp is one of green's core identities, it probably shouldn't be all. If you want to emphasis the creature lands being a green thing, a more palatable solution for me would be a number of Treetop Villages.

I think the bouncelands are fine cards and I'm not doubting their power level. I agree that most of those effects are out but it still makes me apprehensive about running cards like Cryptic Command or Venser. I guess if the blue decks are the ones with the karoos then it'll be less of an issue but the fear is still there. If they were in a higher powered list I would pick them and play them, especially if they're getting the blue signet treatment. I'm just not sure if I agree with it from a design aspect.

Although up there I said the more I think about the idea, the more I dislike it, I agree that the idea is solid and that it just needs to be massaged a little more. I think you've hit an interesting vein for sure and I'm really interested to see what you do with it. I really wish we had more complete cycles. I would love to run the Calciform Pools cycle in this setup.

When I was looking at the cycles you selected, my biggest thought was that I wanted the Filters in both White and Black since some of those mana costs can get pretty heavy. I like the scry lands but I think I would like them the most as the blue lands. If the Karoos are in that slot I think the Scries could do fine in white. The white base aggressive decks probably wouldn't want them but the midrange and control decks would love them. I really like the Fastlands as the red lands. I'm struggling as to what Green would want. If you really want to do the creature lands as a thing limited to the green guilds they make mechanical sense there I guess.

I think President Kamacho was the smartest dude in Idiocracy. The dude knows he's not intelligent enough to fix the crops so he goes out and finds the smartest dude on the planet to fix it for him. That's incredible humility and self awareness.
 
I love Idiocracy. Such a funny movie.

Good idea on Fastlands for red. That really fits well there (though it's playing a bit more into the cliche "red is aggro" thing - still where there's smoke there's fire I suppose).
 
I hope we get the entire cycle of these. More dual lands to flesh out this idea.

en_nsXw6JpzGH.png
 
Yup. I'm holding out hope for the full cycle. I'm all about running more dual lands with basic land types.

Along the same lines, I really like the onslaught mono colored cycle lands. I think they are really underrated.
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Well here, let me help:
Riverbend Oasis.jpgSerene Outback.jpgSoot Plains.jpgSteam Dunes.jpgRefuse Flows.jpg

Not bad for a half hours work I'd say. If you've got any better art or names (these seem to be pretty generic, though the art is supposed to be Egyptian themed)
What I'm going for here is the UG one is supposed to be the nile (not the most proud of that art, a lot of river artwork is of the amazon), and the BG one is supposed to be the worst parts of the Ganges. Hopefully that's coming across at least a bit :p
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
This is about as tempted as I've been to run custom proxies. :)

You know you wanna.

And hey, it's not like anyone would call you out on this. These literally should exist, and the only reason they don't is because wotc wants something we'll be artifically excited about 5 years from now to bring back over the health of the game now!
 
LOL. That's the primary reason why I do actually want to. Because wizard's made the card technically.

That said, how are you guys making good proxies? Every attempt I've done looks like crap and ascetics maters to me. It probably shouldn't but it does. My proxies are eye sores and I hate running them.
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
LOL. That's the primary reason why I do actually want to. Because wizard's made the card technically.

That said, how are you guys making good proxies? Every attempt I've done looks like crap and ascetics maters to me. It probably shouldn't but it does. My proxies are eye sores and I hate running them.

I've experienced absolutely no issues simply printing out stuff and putting them in sleeves, and I don't have that great a printer.
If you want something more permanent, there's a service Safra told me about that will make custom playing cards and then ship them to you, which look real good.
 

Laz

Developer
Lets try this on for size.

2x Cycling Dual lands
1x Bounce Lands
5x Ash Barrens

(Probably another cycle at 360, but I am aiming for a 6 player cube here)
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
I've experienced absolutely no issues simply printing out stuff and putting them in sleeves, and I don't have that great a printer.
If you want something more permanent, there's a service Safra told me about that will make custom playing cards and then ship them to you, which look real good.

I have been endlessly obsessing over a good way to print proxies, ordering old foil commons to peel off the top layer and use thin, translucent stickers to print the card on and stick on the (now) blank Magic card. It's a lot of work, and the result is really nice, but when I still needed to print a lot of customs before a draft I caved in and just printed on paper and stuck the print in front of a sleeved Mountain. And you know what? That actually worked out just fine and I had no complaints from the players whatsoever. I haven't bothered with my old method since.
 
Not bad for a half hours work I'd say. If you've got any better art or names (these seem to be pretty generic, though the art is supposed to be Egyptian themed)

Serene Outback makes me feel really weird. I love the art but it feels like it's more Star Wars than Egyptian. On top of that the name makes me think of Kangaroos and Blooming Onions. I have no suggestions but I just wanted to point out that weird intersection for me. Otherwise, that's great work!
 

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
Serene Outback makes me feel really weird. I love the art but it feels like it's more Star Wars than Egyptian. On top of that the name makes me think of Kangaroos and Blooming Onions. I have no suggestions but I just wanted to point out that weird intersection for me. Otherwise, that's great work!

Alternatives for R/W
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/c1/9a/66/c19a6694ef30e68f48620f25f494c4c6.jpg
http://movco.deviantart.com/art/Pyramid-616524977
http://freelancerart.deviantart.com/art/desert-cave-186130079

Alternatives for G/U
http://chapboy.deviantart.com/art/Nile-119436180
http://crs1009.deviantart.com/art/Oasis-in-the-desert-361982055
http://joshhutchinson.deviantart.com/art/New-Age-Pyramids-460553764

Alternative for U/R
http://moodbringer.deviantart.com/art/At-The-Edge-409264077

Alternative for W/B
http://nele-diel.deviantart.com/art/Desert-Temple-576548644
 
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