General Embrace the Chaos / Cube Occasionals
- Thread starter japahn
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This one seems very ravnic speed and has the kind of high octane play patterns that suit an occasional. I'll always shill for this card, it's fun as hell.
Today someone won a game with Triskaidekaphobia. Occasionals rock.
I'm happy to hear it's working out well for you! Saw on your cube blog thread the different categories of cards you've included and that looks great!
I haven't been playing or keeping up to date, just busy with other things in life (and not very excited with giving more money to Hasbro). But I'm still happy that my cube takes up two boxes.
So cool to hear from you! Do you recall how many cards your core and your occasionals boxes each contain? And what percentage would each make up for a draft pool when you got to draft it?
I feel that 100%, it's likely that people will also hear much less from me soon, since in less than two months my daughter will be born
But even than I'm sure I will return and I would be happy to hear you're returning as well at some point. Cube is still one of the most awesome things to spend time on, it shall outlive magic!
I feel that 100%, it's likely that people will also hear much less from me soon, since in less than two months my daughter will be born
But even than I'm sure I will return and I would be happy to hear you're returning as well at some point. Cube is still one of the most awesome things to spend time on, it shall outlive magic!
360 core and 506 occasionals, the link in my signature is the exact cube list.
6.7% occasionals, because so would seed packs like:
13c/2o
14c/1o
15c
But I was experimenting with higher counts, found 13.5% to be too much but I think 10% is around the ideal spot.
Awesome to hear about your family growing!
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
The good news is, the hectic period of a parent’s life doesn’t last forever. And I should know, since my daughter (and youngest) just turned 10! Dear Lord, where did the time go?!I feel that 100%, it's likely that people will also hear much less from me soon, since in less than two months my daughter will be born
But even than I'm sure I will return and I would be happy to hear you're returning as well at some point. Cube is still one of the most awesome things to spend time on, it shall outlive magic!
I'll try my very best to embrace every moment of it, even the stressful ones
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I like those quarter dots: clear without being intrusive and look quite attreactive.
I'm with you on this. Taking my older son to start university next weekend.
So currently I am using 327 core cards and 33 occasionals for a draft pod of 360 cards. That's been working pretty well, you could say. Occasionals appear in most decks, sometimes 1, 2, or even 4 or 5, and they make an impact. All the archetypes I try to support with my core still show up and build the core of these decks mostly.
There's one problem: I feel like the core supports them too well. Decks with no occasionals come up and are well-oiled machines and often perform better than those that try to cast Cruel Ultimatum or make Emrakul, the Promised End, work.
Last weekend I went to Cube Open Braunschweig, and the finals of the draft of the Casual Champions draft were Gruul Madness vs. Mono Blue Spells Control. The former had super explosive turns and managed to bring back Vengevine on turn two.
The opponent controlled the board and then cast the archaic for a single mana with counter backup.
Zero occasionals in both lists.
On one hand, I love my highly synergistic madness decks, spell slinger decks, dredge decks, what have you. On the other hand, I am a little sad that the occasionals aren't really what you're supposed to do when you try to win, at least not the more niche ones and the buildarounds. I'm so torn. I love casting Faithless Looting and discarding a couple Rootwallas, and I love going off with Talrand, or having Ninja of the Deep Hours on turn two. On the other hand, I also want the dorky and weird decks to be able to keep up with my synergistic archetypes. Not sure what to do about that.
There's one problem: I feel like the core supports them too well. Decks with no occasionals come up and are well-oiled machines and often perform better than those that try to cast Cruel Ultimatum or make Emrakul, the Promised End, work.
Last weekend I went to Cube Open Braunschweig, and the finals of the draft of the Casual Champions draft were Gruul Madness vs. Mono Blue Spells Control. The former had super explosive turns and managed to bring back Vengevine on turn two.
The opponent controlled the board and then cast the archaic for a single mana with counter backup.
Zero occasionals in both lists.
On one hand, I love my highly synergistic madness decks, spell slinger decks, dredge decks, what have you. On the other hand, I am a little sad that the occasionals aren't really what you're supposed to do when you try to win, at least not the more niche ones and the buildarounds. I'm so torn. I love casting Faithless Looting and discarding a couple Rootwallas, and I love going off with Talrand, or having Ninja of the Deep Hours on turn two. On the other hand, I also want the dorky and weird decks to be able to keep up with my synergistic archetypes. Not sure what to do about that.
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Full disclosure: I haven't had experience with implementing occasionals in my cube. But I'm seriously considering it. I've read all of the discussions, including your experience, and I like what I see.
I can compare it to retail draft rares that aren't format defining bombs. A lot of them are constructed plants, others are just weird. Usually, key uncommons are much more thought after, because they could be archetype-defining, not unreliable oddities. But sometimes someone has fun with those weird cards others pass. I remember draft with Lupine Prototype and other rares going circles around the table. It looks like the floor is 2 mana do nothing without proper support. But one guy made it work in his slow soup deck without it being all-in madness aggro. It was surprisingly refreshing as a finisher.
As I see it, it's a way to make 700+ card cube impression while having 360 card cube. Many environments have 15th picks that are fun in the right deck, but rarely pursued by drafters. Which is arguably inefficient use of space. So we use those slots for hundreds of cards instead of a dozen. Low opportunity cost for a possibility of maybe having a surprise sometimes. But not all of the time. japahn's idea was giving up your designer control.
If the goal is to make occasional module more alluring, it might make sense to put the best niche payoffs off the main list, like Vengevine and The Dawning Archaic. Those shouldn't be universal power outliers, just extra seductive for the right deck. Holy grail cards for a designer make you rethink your strategy without requiring changing the whole cube. Those are hard to find of course. Since we assume core module has all the structural support, the "fun" stuff could be in occasionals, instead of core. Like, I was drafting UR control, but now I'm excited to switch to prowess aggro. Or I was in RG madness, but this card makes me want to do slow BRG graveyard grind. Core makes sure your cube works, occasionals give it quirks.
I'm purely theorizing at this point. Just my views on how it could be done.
This doesn't seem like an issue to me. The Occasionals don't need to be defining what's best to do, they're supposed to be fun alternative directions to go. At a Cube event, you're getting two different biases: a higher intent to win from the players than you'd normally get at a casual Cube night (i.e. more risk averse drafting), and a sample size of 1 event.
I think the fact that your core Cube made such interesting and synergistic decks is the thing you should be really satisfied with. The Occasionals can win....occasionally, but their function is just as much to add flavor and diversity to the experience. Dorky and weird decks still win plenty at more casual nights, right? Do you really think if you ran an additional event at the Cube Open that no Occasionals would make the finals? I bet they would. It seems like the drafters for this event drafted very tight and got very lucky; getting mono blue at any Cube event is enough of an outlier that it shouldn't be factored into decision making IMO.
Really happy for you to have been able to go to Cube Open Braunschweig, it seems like it would've been a blast!
Like Miles, I don't think it's really an issue. However, to go back to your madness deck, I would probably have your bread and butter effects in the core module (Rootwallas, Arrogant Wurm, Wild Mongrel, Voldaren Epicure, ...). Then in the occassionals, I would have the spicy cards like Vengevine, Hollow One, Anger, Bloodghast, Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis, Drake Haven or whatever is appropriate at your power level.
This is where I stand too, I think Oleg is spot on.
I have a "Modern 2014" cube with 264 core (with duplicates) and 270ish~ singleton occasional, 3 packs of 11 core / 4 occasionals.
I've been enjoying slotting in banned (in 2014) cards into the occasionals like Jace, the mind sculptor, deathrite shaman, treasure cruise, bloodbraid elf, etc so they can show up sometimes to flex why they got banned at that time but not consistently ruin every draft.
I've found that because the curve of the core cards is so low (1-3 mv), people reach for the occasionals more expensive card advantage (4-5) and we see keranos, god of storms or dragonlord ojutai often be the unexpected hero out of the sideboard.
I'm currently of the opinion that all the "synergy" occasionals need to fit into an existing strong AND dense deck in the core to not feel like a trap. I've had a lot of issues trying to seed in affinity cards into the occasionals, but without the core affinity being dense enough. I had thought 2 mox opal, 2 cranial plating, 2 arcbound ravager in the core would be strong enough to entice people to pick the occasionals but even though they're all strong cards there's just not enough artifacts density wise per pack and it makes the drafters feel silly for trying out etched champion or steel overseer.
I've been enjoying slotting in banned (in 2014) cards into the occasionals like Jace, the mind sculptor, deathrite shaman, treasure cruise, bloodbraid elf, etc so they can show up sometimes to flex why they got banned at that time but not consistently ruin every draft.
I've found that because the curve of the core cards is so low (1-3 mv), people reach for the occasionals more expensive card advantage (4-5) and we see keranos, god of storms or dragonlord ojutai often be the unexpected hero out of the sideboard.
I'm currently of the opinion that all the "synergy" occasionals need to fit into an existing strong AND dense deck in the core to not feel like a trap. I've had a lot of issues trying to seed in affinity cards into the occasionals, but without the core affinity being dense enough. I had thought 2 mox opal, 2 cranial plating, 2 arcbound ravager in the core would be strong enough to entice people to pick the occasionals but even though they're all strong cards there's just not enough artifacts density wise per pack and it makes the drafters feel silly for trying out etched champion or steel overseer.
I think you guys are right in that I'm overreacting a little bit, but there have been a few decks, too many, I think, that play zero occasionals. I think I will just try to reduce the core a little bit, maybe go down to 300 core cards, and try a 12/3 split instead of having just one or two occasionals per pack. I will see if I will be happier that way or if I miss the consistency.
I tend to think of my occasionals as cards with higher ceilings than the core of the cube, but they fit in a narrower range of decks. The opposite of glue, as it were. I'm currently running a 13/2 split in packs. The cube occasionals are often the highlights of decks and the cards that make a player commit to a strategy. But they also tend to be last-picks if that strategy isn't being drafted at the table.
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/mirrors
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/mirrors
I have not had the issue of decks without occasionals winning. Most strategies are set up to have not quite enough payoff if they are relying on only core cards.
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/mirrors
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/mirrors
I have not had the issue of decks without occasionals winning. Most strategies are set up to have not quite enough payoff if they are relying on only core cards.
Maybe ask yourself the following questions:
Do I want the occasional to bring a whole new deck to the table?
If one desires occasionals that improve a deck, what is the win percentage for a deck without the occasional that does make it better? And what with the occasional?
it seems that you at least want that the deck with the occasional has a higher win rate than without. So the power level should be higher.
Do I want the occasional to bring a whole new deck to the table?
If one desires occasionals that improve a deck, what is the win percentage for a deck without the occasional that does make it better? And what with the occasional?
it seems that you at least want that the deck with the occasional has a higher win rate than without. So the power level should be higher.
I think this is a great take. Why not always remove the proverbial or literal Vengevine from our cubes? We all have "usual culprits" that we consider core but are too predictable, but we keep around anyways because we think the archetype needs it. Most archetypes are probably more durable than we give them credit for. Frankly, if we have an archetype that isn't durable enough to survive a single card being cut we ought to examine whether that archetype is on rails or worse: at danger of leaving a drafter up a creek without a paddle if they don't find "that one card".
Maybe an interesting experiment if you really want occasionals to define the draft is to knife down the main cube until its basically the leanest recognizable form of itself. I mean truly take what you thought was the core and torch it down to the bones — leaving just enough of it to stand on its own. Then have like a 2:1 ratio of main cube to occasionals. Off the top of my head 24o base and 360 occasionals seems elegant for this idea for an 8-player cube. You would run 33% of the occasionals each time, which is high enough to be able to rely on each archetype getting some sauce, and the novel combinations of the greater variety of occasionals would really define this concept since the occassionals would be getting more license to steer the direction of the draft. Basically 240 core to 120 occasionals would allow for any draft math you would usually use for a 360 ct cube.
To elaborate, you could take most of the payoffs and higher-power signposts (all the "usual culprits") out of a cube and just leave enough for the main archetypes and identities to function at a basic level — sort of "shellify" it down to its simplest form. I don't necessarily mean lowering the power level of the core, because I think you should still leave a "usual culprit" or two for each of your archetypes, but maybe not the most obvious and usual "usual culprit".
I feel like I'm losing something in my wording here, but basically you could make every archetype in the base cube inherently playable, but open ended in its application. Then the occasionals could include all of the "usual culprits" in addition to a rogues gallery of other options for your drafters to flesh out the identity.
A good example might be cutting from a hypothetical aristocrats archetype. You could limit the base cube to archetype defining staples like Reassembling Skeleton, Blood for Bones, and Etched Familiar — with these cards and others like them you could put together a solid deck irrespective of what was floating around in the occasionals. Then the occasionals would be all of the ways to add spice and character to that shell. Maybe you could house all of your massively repeatable sac outlets like Goblin Bombardment and Altar of Dementia in the occasionals. Maybe this is where you keep specific payoffs like Blood Artist or Open the Graves. Basically the core would have archetype defining cards and the occasionals would contain the archetype refining cards — the cards that inform the direction you take a given archetype.
I think a cool outcome might be drafters gravitating towards occasionals early because archetype refining cards are usually splashier than the defining cards. Then the predictable metagame would be grab the coolest shit you see and grab some stuff to support your cool shit, which is what I think we all mostly strive for anyways.
The only downside might be that you couldn't perfectly guarantee that a drafter will find the sauce they needed for their archetype if they found their archetype mostly from the core (which is like the worst feeling for a drafter). However, as I mentioned in the previous paragraph, I just have a feeling that the occasionals would be drafted earlier more often than not, so I don't think this is the biggest concern. Moreover, if you communicated with players that drafting from the occasionals and fleshing the deck out with the core is technically the safest option, I think that would be enough warning.
To me this feels like it would make occasionals feel a fair bit like rares (and maybe uncommons) in booster draft. They show up less often and provide some extra direction or gas for a given archetype (or are just fun/rad/or weird). To that end I'd probably structure the occassionals as like 70% archetype refiners (or stuff that crosses archetypes), 20% other stuff that is a bit more off the wall but still competitively possible, and 10% rad shit that you hope someone will make work but you'll understand if it never does. I'd still use @japahn 's original framework for what might be fun occasionals to guide this process, but with obviously the caveat that you need to make sure the cube is actually playable (which is more of a given in the original framework for occasionals).
TLDR: What if occasionals were more fully integrated into the DNA of the cube rather than a way to insert varience and variety into a polished cube? Might be cool. idk.
To be clear I haven't tried this, it just gives good vibes and I feel like it could work. Idk I kinda just got excited about the idea and wrote a dissertation.
(edited for some added clarity)
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This is my main cube and I love it! My ratios are a bit different (I spike in at a rate of 1:8 occasionals:total cards seen), but seeing approximately a third of the occasionals each draft and having a lot of redundancy makes for a really good time IMO. I skewed it a little bit because 240 cards is really quite lean with 60 lands, working out to ~24 nonland core cards per player, but someone more ruthless than I could probably get a little closer to your vision. (don't go to my cube and start telling me my math is off as I've not updated that list in a while, but this is how it plays out in practice!)
Take this random pack from my cube (https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/the_mdfc
Four occasionals here is a kind of a lot, but the point is that there are a bunch of multipurpose goobers hanging out in the main body of the cube that are all individually just kinda there for spare parts. You can't see them at this resolution, but they're all common, good cards that you don't have to read to know what they do (kinda. More people should know Grumgully). But to go down the list, Chromatic Star goes with everything. Lands are lands. Rabbit Battery is a cheap artifact, and it, Bushwhacker, and Rimrock Knight make all aggro decks better. Fiery Temper works with anything that discards. You have a cheap flier. You have a repeated draw engine in Quandrix Apprentice. Faerie Vandal can be a win condition on its own and it's a pretty strong pull into Draw 2, but mostly it's a way to eat a kill spell and/or to support tempo.
Point is, they don't really grab you by the shoulders and shout that an archetype is supported. This is in direct contrast with the occasionals.
Sprite Dragon? This is everything Faerie Vandal wishes it could be. She slices, she dices, she can slap someone into game 2 from an empty board like nobody's business. You are playing UR spellslinger and you're going to like it.
Archfiend of Ifnir is somewhere between Plague Wind and Baneslayer. Worth building around, and you'll include it in any black deck even if you don't have any discard because you can just cycle the damn thing away--so you might as well build around it.
Rise and Shine falls into the aspirational camp, but the worst-case scenario of being Ensoul Artifact means it's pretty safe to draft a few artifact lands (in the core!) or even pull off some tricks with an equipped Rabbit Battery for wrath protection (this is really nasty. don't tell people you can do it. I want to get to it first.).
The best Jace gives you a self-enabling Thassa's Oracle that also can't win on its own. It transforms your game plan into a protect-the-queen strategy, but not so often that you can rely on seeing it. Plus, he incentivizes mono-blue, which is a cool thing to do in the occasionals but really difficult to make work in the core.
In short, I'm kind of surprised that people aren't doing this more! I kinda thought this was the obvious implementation of occasionals (put your veggies in the core, the candy and the centerpieces in the occasionals to direct you to asparagus, bok choi, or braised cabbage), but maybe we need to be talking about it. Thanks for giving me an opportunity to brag!
Absolutely seems like you're doing a less rigid version of what I'm pitching, and this quote is my favorite part of your post. Take Reassembling Skeleton for example. Say my cube supports "leave the graveyard", 1/1 matters, and aristocrats (among others). You probably wouldn't P1P1 the skelly because it doesn't really indicate a concrete direction between any of those archetypes or represent a real threat without something supplying it with a refined direction. It doesn't "grab you by the shoulders" in terms of archetype, or really raw appeal either. It can help define any of those archetypes, in the right context once a lane has been refined, but it doesn't really give you a direction if you don't have more information about what direction you're interested in going.
Your occasionals on the other hand contain largely what I called archetype refining cards; cards which help you actually decide how to lean into one or more of the possible archetypes. All of the occasionals that were in your generated pack fit this bill in my opinion. They provide direction within specific core archetypes that dictate how those archetypes should flow around it. They refine your direction within and between archetypes.
Sprite Dragon is a great example of this because of how much it does "grab you by the shoulders", definitely the sort of thing I was envisioning as an occasional. Moreover, I like Sprite Dragon because it is a bit open ended and lets me illustrate a point I neglected to make previously, refining cards (how I think of them) don't have to be concrete signposts individually, they work together a bit more. Say next pack I get Furnace Hellkite, well now here's the refinement. I'm noncreature with Sprite Dragon and specifically prefering artifacts for my Hellkite (oh boy I hope I get The Ozolith). From there the core can really do its work, I'll be looking for glue cards and other stuff that bridges and defines my personal archetype nicely, and if I refine a little bit more along the way it'll probably be from more occasional cards tearing me in slightly different directions. Idk, maybe I'm just overcomplicating preexisting vocab like signposts or buildarounds with this thought, but it feels different enough to me to be worth throwing out there.
I'm glad that my thoughts seem novel enough to be useful, if even just as a framework for discussion. Thanks for bragging! I enjoyed looking at your cube!
(edit: there was one point where I said the true opposite of what I meant, fixed for clarity)
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