General Enchantments not ruining your day

[Mondschwein]

Hey guys, as I already mentioned a few times on these forums, I keep as low on enchantment count as possible (on my current cube project) because enchantments can't be interacted with very well in comparison to creatures. Furthermore, I'm toning down creature removal, and emphasize board presence and therefore combat (and combat tricks), so having strong enchantments would completely ignore the rest of my design philosophy, because you would need to add answers to them, which obv would be quite narrow.

You should know that I'm not talking about Sagas, which are more like sorceries lasting 3-4 turns, Auras (which are either spot removal or easy 2-for-1s for your opponent) and Demonic Pact, which is an exception to the rule.

I'm talking about enchantments like Survival of the Fittest, Attrition and Experimental Frenzy with very strong effects that you need to fight in some way. Those will always be a no-go for me, as adding narrow removal for very strong cards is something I heavily dismiss, as it's bad game design for me.

But what about more narrow enablers? Cards like
Vampiric Rites and Weaponize the Monsters for aristocrats.dec
Myth Realized, Firemind's Research and Thousand-Year Storm for spellslingers.dec
Attunement, Crawling Sensation and Foster for selfmill.dec
Ominous Seas/Hoofprints of the Stag, Lightning Rift, Faith of the Devoted, Drake Haven/Spirit Cairn and Astral Drift for cycling.dec
Burning Vengeance and Secrets of the Dead for gymatters.dec
Doom Foretold and Tainted Aether for staxx.dec
Valor in Akros, Goblin Trenches and Glare of Subdual for tokens.dec
Ion Storm and Path of Discovery for growers.dec

What I also find very interesting: cards where you need to break the symmetry to get an advantage: Fecundity, Pandemonium, Kavu Lair, Oppression
and Primal Vigor.

Or cards like

 

[Alfonzo Bonzo]

What's your question?

 

[Mondschwein]

I knew I've forgotten something.

I just wanted to start a talk about the topic in general. We used to talk about solutions, and how to implement them, as a tool to balance things. I know we also talked about certain enchantments not being too powerful, so they won't absolutely need to be answered, so it's okay playing them.

Those conversations were held over the course of a few years, and not concentrated in one thread - I wanted to change that.
Also, we got a lot of those enchantments in the near past, so it might be worth to discuss the topic again.

 

[japahn]

I agree 100%, and would like to add that in a slower environment (and low power tends to be slower) the opportunity cost of casting enchantments and not having immediate impact is exacerbated.

Most enchantments I run are archetype support, so being hard to remove is a feature.



These are the ones not strongly tied to any archetype:


Glorious Anthem: The only generic enchantment with immediate impact, it's generally good in my environment and great in the tokens deck.
Curse of Shallow Graves: I'm testing it.
Phyrexian Arena: At the top of my power curve, but I haven't found it to be oppressive.
Shapers' Sanctuary: Strong in my environment, but also haven't found oppressive.
Path of Discovery: You can go off with tokens, but the 4-mana cost makes it a real investment. High risk, high reward.

Looking back it seems tokens is too supported by enchantments, I should probably scale back by 1 or 2.

 

[Mondschwein]

Yeah, it might actually be true that it was a discussion of you and someone else that convinced me that I should handle the implementation of enchantments carefully. It was something pretty obvious to me for all the years I'm playing Magic, but riptidelab.com and its users were the first ones that made me think of cube design as actual game design (within MtG boundaries).

I'd like to comment on some of your enchantments:

Curse of Shallow Graves is pretty strong, most of the time it reads create a tapped 2/2 zombie token every turn. It's not as strong as its green sister but damn it's close.

What does Phyrexian Arena do for you that you want it? Why not Underworld Connections for untap shenanigans? Same or similar effect on a creature? I'd even consider running Dark Confidant before running arena because it's hard to interact with but you can easily have it on something more interesting.

Path of Bravery looks pretty damn narrow. I find lifegain matters harder to support than tokens or fliers, which is why I get if someone adds support in the form of Favorable Winds or Intanguible Virtue. Dawn of Hope on the other hand is a completely different story, as it supports itself pretty well for some mana investment.

Glorious Anthem looks boring, I like Virtue and Winds a lot more as they're restrictive but also give your drafters very obvious hints, but if it works that great for you, it should be more than fine.

How are Fecundity, Standstill and Rite of Passage working for you? I love the classic Standstill decks, but can't imagine it being something I want in my cube environment. Rite of Passage actually is something I never really thought about. I do have some divided damage on red spells, and as I already told, I emphasize on combat, so creatures being dealt damage is a pretty common scenario.. yeah. Fecundity is interesting for aristocrats, as they can break the symmetry best.

Evolutionary Leap is also great for Gx aristocrats, but it also looks pretty strong. It's an outlet which Foster isn't, but it also mills yourself, thus is interesting for more types of decks.

 

[Rasmus Källqvist]

I'd just like to chime in with 1) I think enchantments are cool, and 2) As the density of enchantments goes up in the cube (especially if you're running enchantment creatures) the answers to enchantments become much easier to run. So it's possible for the format to actually become a little healthier if there are a couple of strong enchantments (reasonably) rather than just a handful, I think.

 

[japahn]

Curse of Shallow Graves is pretty strong, most of the time it reads create a tapped 2/2 zombie token every turn. It's not as strong as its green sister but damn it's close.

I'll keep an eye on it, thanks. Curse of Predation was definitely GRBS for me. It might be fine given black aggro hasn't been faring well.

What does Phyrexian Arena do for you that you want it? Why not Underworld Connections for untap shenanigans? Same or similar effect on a creature? I'd even consider running Dark Confidant before running arena because it's hard to interact with but you can easily have it on something more interesting.

I don't have land untap synergies, so it's not very interesting in deckbuilding. Perhaps it would be more interesting in play. I'll consider it, though I'm honestly not too concerned about Arena's power level at the moment, since lifegain (not the deck, the effect) tends to be weak in my cube. I do run Bob and Audacious Thief, though they are completely different cards - geared for aggro, while Arena works in either aggro or control.

Path of Bravery looks pretty damn narrow. I find lifegain matters harder to support than tokens or fliers, which is why I get if someone adds support in the form of Favorable Winds or Intanguible Virtue. Dawn of Hope on the other hand is a completely different story, as it supports itself pretty well for some mana investment.

It does! But I wanna try it out anyways, since some people in this forum have recommended, and I miss attacking with Righteous Cause on my board. Lifegain being harder to support than fliers/tokens is true, but it means I either need to support it more or do not support it at all. I had high hopes for Dawn of Hope but it's too mana intensive and I'm close to cutting it, as it always seems like a mistake to play it.

Glorious Anthem looks boring, I like Virtue and Winds a lot more as they're restrictive but also give your drafters very obvious hints, but if it works that great for you, it should be more than fine.

I'm not in love with Anthem, but it's fine and I don't want to skew the wide deck towards tokens even more. I might remove Intangible Virtue instead.

How are Fecundity, Standstill and Rite of Passage working for you? I love the classic Standstill decks, but can't imagine it being something I want in my cube environment. Rite of Passage actually is something I never really thought about. I do have some divided damage on red spells, and as I already told, I emphasize on combat, so creatures being dealt damage is a pretty common scenario.. yeah. Fecundity is interesting for aristocrats, as they can break the symmetry best.

Just added Fecundity really, so I can't say yet. Early testing suggests only the sacrifice deck really wants it.

Standstill is great, I love aggro-control (and some of my drafters do too) and it's a real payoff for getting in early that doesn't lock the opponent out of the game. It's one of the very few cards I've run for 9 years straight.

Rite of Passage does look quite narrow, I'm not sure it will last, but I'm fine if it's just the 14th pick that RG Enrage and Rx Pingers get for free for their courage.

Evolutionary Leap is also great for Gx aristocrats, but it also looks pretty strong. It's an outlet which Foster isn't, but it also mills yourself, thus is interesting for more types of decks.

I really needed a sacrifice outlet in green, and this is pretty much the only decent one. It is OP in armies in a can, but I blame the latter, and isn't very good without them.

 

[Velrun]

“Are enchantments ruining your day? Try Sagas. Enchantments with a self-destruct button.”

 

[Erik Twice]

I run a fairly high power level, but Survival hasn't been a "must deal with". Even when paired with Squee, it places enough constraints on deckbuilding and early mana to not be oppresive. After all, it requires three mana and two cards just to be a tutor. It's a strong card, don't get me wrong, but I haven't found it stronger than other engines.

Both Attrition and Experimental Frenzy, however, are very oppresive. You simply won't win if Attrition resolves against the deck that wants it, the average deck just can't play around it. Limited is about creatures, after all. I run the much weaker Stronghold Assassin. Experimental Frenzy is just...the typical "draw a card every turn" card that will run away with the game except it can easily play 2-3 cards and just blow up the game.

 

[Mondschwein]

wubba lubba dub dub

 

[TrainmasterGT]

wubba lubba dub dub

Spoiler

 

[Dom Harvey]

enchanties good

 

[frostymoose]

Useful card to have to make sure enchantments are kept under control, or unforgivable break of the color pie?

 

[Onderzeeboot]

or unforgivable break of the color pie?

MaRo talked about this. They have moved enchantment removal into black's part of the pie. Expect more enchantment removal in black in the future, though it will likely not be as efficient or good as white and green's enchantment removal options.

 

[TrainmasterGT]

feed the swarm
Useful card to have to make sure enchantments are kept under control, or unforgivable break of the color pie?

MaRo talked about this. They have moved enchantment removal into black's part of the pie. Expect more enchantment removal in black in the future, though it will likely not be as efficient or good as white and green's enchantment removal options.

Yeah, the entire reason WOTC never used to have enchantment removal in black was because they didn't want people running mono-black decks to be able to destroy their "deal with the devil" enchantments such as Demonic Pact and Treacherous Blessing. Then one day, after almost 30 years, some guy in the office walked in and was like "you know, we could actually give black enchantment destruction as long as we only make it target other people's enchantments." Then everybody collectively facepalmed wondering why they hadn't come up with that idea in 30 years of making magic.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

I love this little story :')

 

[Velrun]

I love this little story :')

Me too Like a great little novel
Train mentions 30 years of making Magic. The oldest card he mentions is Demonic Pact from Magic Origins in 2015. (6 years ago for future readers). I can't wait to read how he narratives the story out of this mess Our characters are in trouble at gunpoint. What will happen in Part 2, Train?

 

[GalacticTraveler12]

There's this guy from 1997 off the top of my head. That leaves 6 more years of magic to explain though.

 

[Onderzeeboot]

Me too Like a great little novel
Train mentions 30 years of making Magic. The oldest card he mentions is Demonic Pact from Magic Origins in 2015. (6 years ago for future readers). I can't wait to read how he narratives the story out of this mess Our characters are in trouble at gunpoint. What will happen in Part 2, Train?

I mean, "deal with the devil" enchantments were a thing in black right from the start Not a particularly good disenchant target, but still.

 

[Velrun]

Can you guys stop helping our writer with your fan fiction?

 

[LadyMapi]

In defense of Path of Bravery, it's actually pretty decent at supporting itself as long as you aren't facing down aggro. You can effectively turn the anthem on mid-attack if you swing with enough creatures. Throw in a couple creatures with lifelink and a few incidental sources of lifegain, and you have a deck.

 

[ravnic]

Is it really that disadvantageous to have enough enchantment removal around? These usually answer other things as well, so they are not strict sideboard material.



Also, it is pretty easy to increase your enchantment count to the point where it is really worth maindecking at least one. Even a simple Demystify (which nobody cubes) does answer more than the uninteractive global enchantments.



Enchantment based removal, enchantment creatures and enchantments that go away at some point are easy to integrate targets for your Rambunctious Mutts. So they become even less narrow then.

I agree that verystrong enchantments like Sulfuric Vortex or Curse of Shallow Graves become GRBS quickly if you don't have a lot of flexible and powerful answers. But I feel like trying hard to exclude enchantments as much as possible is taking it too far. You're putting unnecessary restrictions on your cube design.

 

[Rasmus Källqvist]

I agree with Ravnic! WotC seem to have no trouble including enchantments in their retail formats and still have fun interactive games happen in them. In terms of increasing the density of enchantments, I (also) think playing aura based removal (to the extent your power level allows) can really help make main decking enchantment removal more useful.

 

[sigh]

If you have any interaction with the graveyard, this is a very flexible piece of permission:


This beater operates perfectly fine without the ability, but it's awesome that it's there as a nice option:


I agree that severe restriction of enchantments as a whole is just restricting design space unnecessarily. Stay away from GRBS, but most are far from that.

 

[LadyMapi]

?