Enemy Guild Themed Cube

[kevthewalker]

Hi all!

My favorite draft set of all time was triple Innistrad. What I loved about it was that you drafted an actual archetype rather than a random assortment of good stuff. The fact that many of those archetypes overlapped made things even more interesting, creating more tension in the picks. I am looking to create a similarly open draft environment, focusing more on the enemy-colored guilds.

After much trial and error (and extremely helpful feedback from all you exceptional people on these forums), I have the list at a place where I am happy with (for now). Might even build it irl if everyone feels the same way too:

http://www.cubetutor.com/visualspoiler/21563


While I did try to make the format as open-ended and flat as possible, there are some cards which are more desirable than others or definite 1st-picks. I also laid out specific archetypes for each guild pairing, with varying levels of overlap.

Orzhov (WB)
Main:
- Spiritcraft (arcane and spirit tribal)

Minor:
- Auras and enchantments

Izzet (UR)
Main:
- Instants and sorceries

Minor:
- Token swarm (Goblins!)

Golgari (BG)
Main theme:
- Graveyard (delve, unearth, threshold, etc)

Minor:
- None so far

Boros (RW)
Main theme:
- Lifegain

Minor:
Defenders

Simic (GU)
Main theme:
- Tempo

Minor:
- Card draw

Taking a page from Ravnica's draftbook, each pairing was also assigned an aggro, midrange, or control focus. From most aggro to most control, they are (roughly) Simic, Izzet, Orzhov, Golgari and Boros.

The cube included some wedge cards initially, to reward those who went 3 colors. I felt they weren;t really needed and removed them, as well as a big portion of the multicolored cards (which had a much larger section). Some trimming was done in artifacts as well, down to some minor support cards and fixing. Not much to say about the lands, although I am worried whether I need to add more or take out more fixing.

As always, appreciate any and all feedback. Doing drafts and leaving comments on cubetutor would be great as well. I will try to respond to everyone who has something to say. Cheers and thank you!

 

[Chriskool]

Drool. Your archetype paradigm is food for my soul. I'll draft it some, mull over the list and come back with feedback in a few days.

 

[Eric Chan]

Welcome to the site!

This is one of those cubes that really needs a guide before someone were to draft it. For example, I did a test draft on cubetutor, and noticed a lot of madness cards. Without having a guide handy, it's difficult for me to tell in which colours the theme is supported, and what discard outlets I'm supposed to look for. I'd be hesitant to jump into the archetype or pick up things like Fiery Temper without knowing if it's likely to be a dud.

Your gold section... could use some work. At a glance, it seems both far too large, and lacking in focus. Having a big multicolour section without providing sufficient fixing will both 1) cause a lot of gold cards to wheel, as people won't be able to splash those cards, and 2) be overwhelming for the majority of your playerbase, as signals become difficult to read, and build-arounds are impossible to identify. I understand that you want to focus on enemy colours, but overloading on gold cards is not the way to do it. You could probably stand to shrink your gold section by 40% - 60 cards ought to be more than enough.

The other issue is that there's a huge disparity in power level, between the best gold cards and the worst ones. To wit, you run:



And then you also have:



At the risk of sounding harsh, there isn't any rhyme or reason to your card choices in the multicolour section. Cards from the first category are easily first pickable, but don't necessarily point a drafter towards a specific enemy-colour archetype; they're all just Good Cards. Cards in the latter category probably won't ever be played, even by people drafting those specific two colours, as while they might be 'on-theme', they're just too far below the power curve.

This cube has potential, but I feel that you need to take a few steps back, and decide on what kind of environment you want to craft. High powered, or closer to a limited feel? Primarily two-colour decks, two colours with a splash, or three colours? A fast environment, or a slow one? Until you set these goalposts, it's not really worth tweaking individual card choices - decide first if you're playing hockey, or soccer.

 

[Dom Harvey]

Drafted this:

BW Auras/Spirits

A nice deck, but with shaky mana. You can have bad mana (though idk why you would, IMO every Cube gets better with easier mana) or a heavy gold component, but not both.

I really like the Spirit theme in BW.

 

[kevthewalker]

Thanks for the comments so far guys.

Chris:
Happy to hear that. Please do!

Eric:
Yeah, a few of the cards I included were a bit of an afterthought. I was thinking, "Oh, I have a few discard outlets so why not I just add in some madness cards."

is clearly a Simic tempo card, but I see what you mean on the rest. I admit that many of the card choices have huge power gaps, and I was probably trying too hard to make the mimics semi-playable.

This cube has potential, but I feel that you need to take a few steps back, and decide on what kind of environment you want to craft. High powered, or closer to a limited feel? Primarily two-colour decks, two colours with a splash, or three colours? A fast environment, or a slow one? Until you set these goalposts, it's not really worth tweaking individual card choices - decide first if you're playing hockey, or soccer.

I want a fun, interactive environment with strong cards but an incentive to draft archetypes. Primarily 2 color. Don't want the environment too fast, which is why I assigned an identity for each color-pairing; Simic = aggro, Izzet, Orzhov = aggro-midrange, Golgari = mid-rangecontrol, Boros = control.

Dom:
Sweet deck, seems super-fun to play. I love tribal a lot in general and have always been fond of spiritcraft. Glad to see it working out.


So from what I've seen so far, the general consensus is that I should cut down on my gold section and amp up on the fixing. I'll go over my list again, remove some of the gold chaff and replace them with other things. What would everyone suggest for fixing though? I originally had in the appropriate-colored signets and cluestones; should they go back in? Or should I include more lands like the Eventide duals, ala ? I am also considering removing all of the cycling lands as well, because they do nothing to help fix mana.

So, other than all that, anything else I should be concerned about? Cheers.

 

[kevthewalker]

Did a massive update over the hols which addresses some of the issues that were brought up. Basically I cut down on the multicolor cards, strengthened some of the on-color themes, and added more fixing, both land and artifact-wise.

Hope everyone can draft it a few times again and let me know what you guys think. Cheers!

http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/21563

 

[Eric Chan]

I want a fun, interactive environment with strong cards but an incentive to draft archetypes. Primarily 2 color.

The main problem with including so many gold cards is that you incentivize three colour decks, not two. There will be some number of straight Simic or Boros decks in your drafts, but more often than not, people will take cards from two different colour pairs, and form a three colour concoction. That's generally how both of the past Ravnica block draft formats have gone - the packaging and marketing would lead you to believe that limited is all about the guilds, but you're often better off choosing one guild and lightly splashing cards from two others (e.g. mainly Boros, but making room for Rakdos and Orzhov as well).

 

[FlowerSunRain]

Eric is on the right track here even though it might seem counterintutive. Think about to all the old draft formats that had zero or very few multicolor cards and awful mana fixing.

Tempest Block
Urza's Block
Masques
Both Mirrodins
Most Core Sets
Zendikar

and so on. Since these formats had almost no decent manafixing and few multicolor cards, everyone played one color, right?

Nope. Most people played two colors. The ability to reach into an extra color for synergy and a larger pool of cards for power, niche or curve purposes is better then the consistency of playing one color, even without specific cards to reward it. Being able to access more cards in the draft is an advantage by itself and if you have lots of gold cards, playing a two color deck only gives you access to the smallest fraction of them. If you want awesome two color decks to be your centerpiece, lots of gold cards are probably not the direction to go. I would also avoid fetchlands and city of brass type cards as they clearly push towards 3 colors.

 

[kevthewalker]

The main problem with including so many gold cards is that you incentivize three colour decks, not two. There will be some number of straight Simic or Boros decks in your drafts, but more often than not, people will take cards from two different colour pairs, and form a three colour concoction. That's generally how both of the past Ravnica block draft formats have gone - the packaging and marketing would lead you to believe that limited is all about the guilds, but you're often better off choosing one guild and lightly splashing cards from two others (e.g. mainly Boros, but making room for Rakdos and Orzhov as well).

You are absolutely correct Eric. I drafted Rav block heavily, and am surprised that this hadn't occurred to me before you mentioned it.

Eric is on the right track here even though it might seem counterintutive. Think about to all the old draft formats that had zero or very few multicolor cards and awful mana fixing.

Tempest Block
Urza's Block
Masques
Both Mirrodins
Most Core Sets
Zendikar

and so on. Since these formats had almost no decent manafixing and few multicolor cards, everyone played one color, right?

Nope. Most people played two colors. The ability to reach into an extra color for synergy and a larger pool of cards for power, niche or curve purposes is better then the consistency of playing one color, even without specific cards to reward it. Being able to access more cards in the draft is an advantage by itself and if you have lots of gold cards, playing a two color deck only gives you access to the smallest fraction of them. If you want awesome two color decks to be your centerpiece, lots of gold cards are probably not the direction to go. I would also avoid fetchlands and city of brass type cards as they clearly push towards 3 colors.

Yes, I see it now after reading Eric's post. The more fixing I add will just encourage drafters to grab fixing early then pick and choose from the best cards in each color pairing, rather than stick with 2-color. I drafted the cube myself many times and must have unwittingly tunnel visioned myself to just take cards from a specific color pairing once I picked my 1st gold card.

Which brings up a big problem... what am I to do now with the cube?

I am happy with how each enemy guild has its own distinct draft identity but how would you guys suggest I go about encouraging 2 color? The obvious choice would be to heavily cut down on multicolor cards, but by how many? Perhaps remove all of the 1st-pick type cards like walkers and removal (ala , etc) and just keep on-theme multicolor cards? Or just cut down on the rainbow lands and artifacts (ala , , etc)? Or something else?

 

[Chris Taylor]

One thing that is really apparent in Kahns is that if you want to incentivize something, make everything else less good
Compare




Lifelink is big

 

[Eric Chan]

I would say to just keep on doing what you're doing. The most fun people will have is combining your five predefined archetypes, and mixing and matching them into sweet three-colour brews you hadn't anticipated. It'd be boring if there were only five two-colour decks in your format, with little room for variation. On the other hand, if you encourage both the five two-colour decks, and the five three-colour combinations, you'll get more variety from draft to draft, and the unexpected mingling of, say, Orzhov spirits with Boros... whatever will keep things fresh.

I'd say that if you aim to have three of your eight drafters in two colours on any given night, and the other five in three colours, you'll still see your guild themes at the forefront, but you also won't have the same stale decks trotted out time and again.

 

[kevthewalker]

I would say to just keep on doing what you're doing. The most fun people will have is combining your five predefined archetypes, and mixing and matching them into sweet three-colour brews you hadn't anticipated. It'd be boring if there were only five two-colour decks in your format, with little room for variation. On the other hand, if you encourage both the five two-colour decks, and the five three-colour combinations, you'll get more variety from draft to draft, and the unexpected mingling of, say, Orzhov spirits with Boros... whatever will keep things fresh.

I'd say that if you aim to have three of your eight drafters in two colours on any given night, and the other five in three colours, you'll still see your guild themes at the forefront, but you also won't have the same stale decks trotted out time and again.

Thanks Eric. Yeah, I was trying to push more for an interesting and different draft format, it doesn't necessarily have to be just 2 color. Another case of tunnel vision again.

Would you recommend that I make any changes to the lands section? Perhaps remove all the rainbow lands for example? Would you also recommend that I cut down my multicolor section further, and if yes, what do I cut? Iffy cards like or definite 1st picks like , ? This question is for anyone else who has an opinion as well.

And once again, thanks for commenting!

 

[Eric Chan]

Yeah, at the power level you're going for, I'd definitely axe Ajani Vengeant and other multicolor cards that are grossly more powerful than the rest of the environment that you're crafting. Sorin, Lord of Innistrad falls into this camp, too. At the bottom end of the spectrum, I'd aim to nix some of the more questionable cards - like the ones I pointed out a few posts up - so that you concentrate your power spectrum solidly in the middle. This should make both drafting and playing a lot more fun for your playerbase.

Removal, like Utter End, isn't really overpowered in and of itself. It's essentially still just a one-for-one trade, and at most you come out a little ahead on mana. It can't inherently take over a game the way a card advantage machine like a planeswalker can.

As far as fixing goes, you should probably be providing at least five cycles of dual lands for your five supported colour pairs, and preferably six cycles, which would give you 25 or 30 dual lands to start. I'd cut chaff like Bant Panorama - that shit is bad - and provide better tri-lands and other five-colour options, instead. As for your gold section, it's not at a bad size right now - 69/385 is entirely reasonable, and should make drafting more interactive than with your original ratios.

 

[kevthewalker]

Yeah, at the power level you're going for, I'd definitely axe Ajani Vengeant and other multicolor cards that are grossly more powerful than the rest of the environment that you're crafting. Sorin, Lord of Innistrad falls into this camp, too. At the bottom end of the spectrum, I'd aim to nix some of the more questionable cards - like the ones I pointed out a few posts up - so that you concentrate your power spectrum solidly in the middle. This should make both drafting and playing a lot more fun for your playerbase.

Removal, like Utter End, isn't really overpowered in and of itself. It's essentially still just a one-for-one trade, and at most you come out a little ahead on mana. It can't inherently take over a game the way a card advantage machine like a planeswalker can.

As far as fixing goes, you should probably be providing at least five cycles of dual lands for your five supported colour pairs, and preferably six cycles, which would give you 25 or 30 dual lands to start. I'd cut chaff like Bant Panorama - that shit is bad - and provide better tri-lands and other five-colour options, instead. As for your gold section, it's not at a bad size right now - 69/385 is entirely reasonable, and should make drafting more interactive than with your original ratios.

I've already gone through many of the questionable multicolored cards (many of which you highlighted previously) and axed them already. I've also replaced Sorin, Lord of Innstrad with Sorin, Solemn Visitor. I know Sorin v2 can be oppressive, esp in a limited environment, but what about Sorin v3? I've not played him or against him yet so I can't say but he seems to be slightly tamer (although his +1 can be op if you have a sizable enough force)? Also, apart from Vengeant, I don't think any of the other 2-colored walkers in my list would be considered 'grossly more powerful', do you?

Thanks also for the comment on the lands. I'll see about replacing the Panoramas with the Eventide filter ones.


I was really planning on doing a 'Cards In' and 'Cards Out' post to show the changes I made but I moved so many of them around I decided against it.

 

[kevthewalker]

Hey guys. Major, major update.
Thanks to feedback and drafts on the cube, I have the list at a place where I am quite content.

I've also updated the main post and streamlined the information somewhat.

Hope everyone can comment and do some test drafts. Love to see what you guys think, and whether or not it is fun.

 

[kevthewalker]

I haven't been getting any comments lately, so I thought I'd try posting something to (a) revive the thread, and (b) get some more feedback, hopefully.

Here are some cards I've been thinking of adding in. Would love to hear thoughts on whether these are good choices and what to take out for them if they are? (Color archetypes are in the 1st post)





Thanks all!

 

[FlowerSunRain]

This list looks way more tuned then the last time I looked at it, nice work.

It doesn't look like +1/+1 counter is really a theme you are trying here or even a theme you should be trying, you I'd leave Glean of Authority , Anafenza and Deranged Outcast on the bench.

Elusive Spellfist seems like a perfect fit. Teleportal looks like a reasonable "overrun" effect (probably the best you could hope for in those colors). Taigam's Strike is reasonable and you already have artful dodge. Distortion Strike is a way card if you want that effect at a lower cost.

Hedonist's Trove is probably doesn't have any place in 99% of cubes, it costs so much as has a reasonable chance of being useless. Sidisi is really, really impressive and like most tutors scales to your environment. Also like most tutors, she quickly turns overpowered if you have an outlier card/abusive combo to dig for, so keep that in mind. I like Corpseweft a lot as a "reanimator" card that is more resiliant and not as swingy as other reanimator cards. It was awesome in the 4 man I got in on Friday paired with stormbind.

Sudden Reclamation is a decent inspiration + Graveyard loader. Its probably too slow for really fast cubes, but in yours it'll help the themes I imagine.

Stratus Dancer, Den Protector and Frost walker are all good cards and fine enough to fill slots in most any cube.

I think Pestermite, Wall of Limbs, Soulsworn Spirit, Aetherflame wall, Duergar Hedgemage (lots of non-basic landtype lands in your pool), and some of the planeswalkers might be decent cuts, mostly one powerlevel on each end.

 

[kevthewalker]

This list looks way more tuned then the last time I looked at it, nice work.

It doesn't look like +1/+1 counter is really a theme you are trying here or even a theme you should be trying, you I'd leave Glean of Authority , Anafenza and Deranged Outcast on the bench.

Elusive Spellfist seems like a perfect fit. Teleportal looks like a reasonable "overrun" effect (probably the best you could hope for in those colors). Taigam's Strike is reasonable and you already have artful dodge. Distortion Strike is a way card if you want that effect at a lower cost.

Hedonist's Trove is probably doesn't have any place in 99% of cubes, it costs so much as has a reasonable chance of being useless. Sidisi is really, really impressive and like most tutors scales to your environment. Also like most tutors, she quickly turns overpowered if you have an outlier card/abusive combo to dig for, so keep that in mind. I like Corpseweft a lot as a "reanimator" card that is more resiliant and not as swingy as other reanimator cards. It was awesome in the 4 man I got in on Friday paired with stormbind.

Sudden Reclamation is a decent inspiration + Graveyard loader. Its probably too slow for really fast cubes, but in yours it'll help the themes I imagine.

Stratus Dancer, Den Protector and Frost walker are all good cards and fine enough to fill slots in most any cube.

I think Pestermite, Wall of Limbs, Soulsworn Spirit, Aetherflame wall, Duergar Hedgemage (lots of non-basic landtype lands in your pool), and some of the planeswalkers might be decent cuts, mostly one powerlevel on each end.

FSR! Thanks for the feedback! Mucho appreciate it!

+1/+1 counters isn't a theme for the cube at all; not sure what I was thinking about the Gleam. Possibly because it's a pretty cool aura I guess?
Anafenza and Deranged Outcast, however, I included because Anafenza is a spirit (for tribal) and the Outcast seems pretty decent in aggro. I was also looking for a good aggro 2-drop in green that sort of interacts with the gy.

Any thoughts on my other adds? Is 1 drop defender a wasted slot? I am also thinking of replacing with the .

I am ravenous for more comments, esp on the rest of the cube.

 

[kevthewalker]

So I updated my cube list yet again, and would love some feedback.

I was rather excited with this update as I really went all-out with some of the replacements. Axed the defender theme as it wasn't going anywhere and added a minor 'lands in graveyard' theme for green.

Weird thing was, when I did a few test drafts on cubetutor, it actually felt way more underwhelming when compared to the previous update. I wonder why that is? The cube does feel a bit forced(?) now and I'm not really sure what to do. The multicolor cards feel really arbitrary for some reason and I don't know whether to go back to the drawing board and remove a lot more gold cards or just scrap this altogether. When I test drafted, the gold cards seemed to overpower picks (which wasn't the case before), and black green seems to be the colors to be in while blue feels super boring.

Anyways, I would really appreciate some thoughts and comments so please, please, do chime in even to criticize. Cheers!

New cube list:
http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/21563

Visual spoiler:
http://www.cubetutor.com/visualspoiler/21563

Changelog:
http://www.cubetutor.com/cubeblog/21563

 

[Kirblinx]

Gave your cube a couple of drafts to see what was going on and it seemed fairly solid.
I even got in one of my favourite 5 colour durdle decks (shows that the fixing is satisfactory).

So I updated my cube list yet again, and would love some feedback.
Weird thing was, when I did a few test drafts on cubetutor, it actually felt way more underwhelming when compared to the previous update. I wonder why that is? The cube does feel a bit forced(?) now and I'm not really sure what to do. The multicolor cards feel really arbitrary for some reason and I don't know whether to go back to the drawing board and remove a lot more gold cards or just scrap this altogether. When I test drafted, the gold cards seemed to overpower picks (which wasn't the case before), and black green seems to be the colors to be in while blue feels super boring.

So I only ever did one draft of your cube before the update, so I can't comment too much on why it feels more underwhelming when I have nothing to compare it to. How does it feel 'forced'? Too much focus on the enemy colours, so there are only really 5 given options in a draft? It does feel a little restrictive, I must admit.

The fact that you have a 50 card(!) gold section might be part of the blame. If you think of gold as its own colour (it does take up the same amount of slots as a single colour) then you have access to 5 'Walkers and most of the top end to the curves. I mean it does a good job of forcing you into enemy coloured decks, but that just restricts the variety. I would cut the gold cards down to 5 per colour to start off with to see if that mitigates some of the problem.

Blue being super boring stems from the two archetypes that it is trying to support. UR Spells is a fairly standard archetype that doesn't really need its support cards too much to be competitive. Efficient creatures and burn do the job just as well. The other archetype UG tempo seems to be the real thorn in your cubes side. There really isn't anything that makes you WANT to go into this archetype, you just sometimes end up there. It is pretty much just a midrangey aggro deck with low curve and efficient cards. No simic gold cards force you to go this route. These two archetypes make blue seem unappealing as half their archetype pushing cards look weak, because the archetypes are weak/boring. Also, they are both aggro/midrange/value decks which makes all the cards follow this route. You have nothing big and splashy to drag people into blue (in my opinion).
When I had a look at the drafts done on cubetutor I noticed that nearly all the UG decks were graveyard based and not tempo based. That should have been an indication that it wasn't doing what you wanted it to do.

Everyone seems to love graveyard decks, which is why GB seem to be the better colours. Also, they are the only enemy colour pair where it is their only real theme (there isn't really a secondary) so when you draft one strong graveyard interaction card it pulls you into GB.

So that is about all I have to say in reference to your quote but I wanted to add a couple of little of extra things I noticed:

• RW Lifegain? Is this really a thing that happens? I don't see enough to make Searing Meditation worth it. Also, I hope that isn't the reason this guy is in. He just seems so bad. Also, what does red bring to this archetype?
• Blessed Spirits seems like it was tailor made for your cube. Man I love Tallowisp (Maybe it is worth doubling up on him)
• Do people get to 7 mana, to be able to use these things?
• Would UR artifacts be worth exploring with all the new tools from Origins?
• Maybe UG can have a counters theme or something, I don't know... It's a hard colour combination with a whole thread talking about all the average gold cards you can put in there. I do love this guy a bit too much though
• A little bit more bleeding of archetypes wouldn't go astray. I feel you have done a decent job of this to an extent, but a bit more would be awesome. Something like Kodama's Reach for spirits, etc.
• You haven't done much to deal with the power disparity that Eric has mentioned multiple times above. Seeing Liliana, Ajani V then getting passed something like Kavu Predator makes me confused. Touching on that...
• I don't like hating out archetypes, which is why Kavu Predator and Urgent Exorcism are unessecary. One hates out an archetype that struggles enough and the other is hating out it's own colour. Who would play it? I wouldn't because no one has the spirits, because I do.

That should be enough to mull over. Hopefully I wasn't too harsh and actually gave you some useful information. If not, question it and I shall elaborate further

 

[kevthewalker]

First off, a big thank you to you Kirblinx for taking the time to draft the cube, read my nonsense and to type out this wall of information. Gratitude very am I.

So I only ever did one draft of your cube before the update, so I can't comment too much on why it feels more underwhelming when I have nothing to compare it to. How does it feel 'forced'? Too much focus on the enemy colours, so there are only really 5 given options in a draft? It does feel a little restrictive, I must admit.

It feels underwhelming in the sense that I didn't really feel excited to test draft it. Perhaps I have been giving too much of time to it recently? Your feedback did help to invigorate some interest in it, however. And yes, 'forced' as in 'restrictive'. There feels too much of a focus on the enemy pairs and drafting the archetypes they provide, thus it doesn't feel very open-ended like a traditional cube would be.

The fact that you have a 50 card(!) gold section might be part of the blame. If you think of gold as its own colour (it does take up the same amount of slots as a single colour) then you have access to 5 'Walkers and most of the top end to the curves. I mean it does a good job of forcing you into enemy coloured decks, but that just restricts the variety. I would cut the gold cards down to 5 per colour to start off with to see if that mitigates some of the problem.

Originally I thought 50 might be too little (LOL), but after this update I have finally realized how large it is instead. Many of the choices feel lackluster (UG in particular) because they're just there to fill a quota of gold cards. Is 5 too low though? I thought about cutting down to 7 per color pair for now, but I definitely want to trim some fat.

RW Lifegain? Is this really a thing that happens? I don't see enough to make Searing Meditation worth it. Also, I hope that isn't the reason this guy is in. He just seems so bad. Also, what does red bring to this archetype?

Making RW control colors seemed really intuitive at the time, because most cubes run the pair as heavy aggro colors. Lifegain is also central to Boros and since control aims to slow the game down, it seemed like a natural choice for the Meditation. In retrospect, this was kept pretty much exclusively in white as red does zero lifegain.

Looking at the cube, these cards support Meditation (in RW colors):

Spoiler

Hopeful Eidolon
Ajani's Pridemate
Seeker of the Way
Soulfire Grand Master
Suture Priest
Nyx-Fleece Ram
Basilica Guards
Dawnbringer Charioteers
Kiyomaro, First to Stand
Ajani Steadfast
Survival Cache
Terashi's Grasp
Genju of the Fields
Recumbent Bliss
Faith's Fetters
Goblin Legionnaire
Lightning Helix
Sunhome Enforcer
Ajani Vengeant
Balefire Liege
Firemane Angel

Laying it out like that, seems that the support cards are far too sparse for Meditation to work. Many of the cards are also versatile enough to be picked up by the non-lifegain player as well (and yes, the Enforcer was meant to slot in RW lifegain control). What would you suggest then? Scrap the Meditation plan altogether and just focus on some other theme? Add more lifegain?

Blessed Spirits seems like it was tailor made for your cube. Man I love Tallowisp (Maybe it is worth doubling up on him)

Yes, I fell in love with it the moment I saw it spoiled. Fits like a glove and yes, have been considering breaking singleton for a while now. Just not sure which ones to do so.

Do people get to 7 mana, to be able to use these things?

In all honesty I haven't actually got to test the cube irl yet as I am trying to fine tune it to the point that I am satisfied enough with it before getting the cards. Those do seem very expensive mana-wise, but I thought they would do as good finishers for the slower decks. Oyobi seems really awesome but costs 7. I was looking for other control finishers that had spiritcraft but the only other option was Kyoki, Sanity's Eclipse. So yeah.

Would UR artifacts be worth exploring with all the new tools from Origins?

Did consider that but that would mean I'd have to revamp the entire cube to support artifacts as well. UR artifacts is a sweet, sweet archetype though, but just wondering if that was for an entirely different cube altogether, since I've already invested pretty heavily on enchantments already?

• Maybe UG can have a counters theme or something, I don't know... It's a hard colour combination with a whole thread talking about all the average gold cards you can put in there. I do love this guy a bit too much though
• A little bit more bleeding of archetypes wouldn't go astray. I feel you have done a decent job of this to an extent, but a bit more would be awesome. Something like Kodama's Reach for spirits, etc.
• You haven't done much to deal with the power disparity that Eric has mentioned multiple times above. Seeing Liliana, Ajani V then getting passed something like Kavu Predator makes me confused. Touching on that...
• I don't like hating out archetypes, which is why Kavu Predator and Urgent Exorcism are unessecary. One hates out an archetype that struggles enough and the other is hating out it's own colour. Who would play it? I wouldn't because no one has the spirits, because I do.

- +1/+1 counters is indeed something that I am considering as I do like many cards for it and I do already have several in the cube already.
- Kodama's Reach was indeed in the cube before this recent update, as well as some other stuff in there like the full cycle of Onnas, and random stuff like Burr Grafter. Perhaps they should go back in?
- Yes I have noted Eric's comment on disparity. It just feels so wrong to not give a walker to each gold pairing since the whole cube revolves around the enemy pairs to begin with, but perhaps it's time I finally removed Vengeant.
- Noted on the hosers. On a related note, I guess Punishing Fire should go as well? I am definitely keeping stuff like Ooze and Deathrite though.

That should be enough to mull over. Hopefully I wasn't too harsh and actually gave you some useful information. If not, question it and I shall elaborate further

Thanks again Kirblinx, annd not at all. Please, be harsher if that means more feedback.

 

[kevthewalker]

So taken comments to heart and here's a small update.


These are what I am thinking of taking out for each color:

Spoiler

If there's something I missed (that should be removed), do chime in. I would love to hear if any of these should stay in after all? Am unsure which 3 cards to remove for BG and 1 more card for UR. Also, should Searing Meditation still be a thing? I did finally go ahead and remove Sorin + Ajani V, which is probably for the best. I am contemplating whether to add Athreos, God of Passage and/or Keranos, God of Storms to their respective sections?

So to replace the removed cards, here are some which I am considering:

Spoiler

Reasoning for some choices:
Triclopean Sight - wanted an instant speed option since white pretty much has no instants; seems pretty bad though
Faithful Squire - wish this was a spirit but I think the cube already has a critical mass to support it, and it's really good after flipping
Hired Muscle - see above
Squee, Goblin Nabob - goblin that blocks well, good for discarding and general role-player; stats pretty bad though
Flayer of the Hatebound - interesting card that replaces flametongue; works well with flashback, reanimation, etc
Pyreheart Wolf - roleplayer
Jaya Ballard, Task Mage - unsure but seems very fun

Also, definitely want some suggestions for the remaining slots?

To reiterate, my current themes are:
WB - spirit tribal, enchantments (auras)
UR - instants/sorceries, flashback, tokens
BG - graveyard
RW - lifegain, tokens, control
UG - tempo, card draw

Green also has a minor lands in yard theme.