Eric Chan's Modern cube (405)

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
Nobody wants to take the risk of jumping in when they see only one hawk. But if you've noticed that two have passed you in the second pack, and better still that they both come back, that's a pretty clear signal that it's safe to jump in. Then in pack three, you can start snapping them up aggressively. Knowing when to go for the Hawks is one of the most fun sub-games of the draft portion, and there's not much more satisfying than picking up four or five of them all told, one draft pick at a time.

Good cards table all the time, though. Ajani Vengeant once made the rounds here, as did Koth (!!). Tabling by itself isn't necessarily a sign that a card is bad - but consistently not making the maindeck is.
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Alright, I'll play along: What if you're in white and need 2 drops but you've correctly identified hawks are a bad idea? What if two people are in white (They need 2 drops too)? What if the ideal 2 drop for your deck isn't psudo-elvsh visionary with flying?

Good cards table all the time, i'll buy that, but if the only time they aren't is when YOU have 3+, that sounds pretty poisony to me.

I like a good draft game, but I don't like the idea of that draft game replacing a whole section of a deck.
 

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
I think what people keep forgetting is that you have forty-five picks to muck around with, and only slightly over half of those make the cut to your maindeck, not counting non-basic lands. Even with a very generous estimate of ten relevant, worthwhile nonbasics, that's still about a dozen cards you'll pick up that won't see play one way or the other. These are typically the cards that are going late and wheeling, that, for one reason or another, aren't fitting with anyone's decks that particular draft. Maybe it's an Electrolyze on the night that no one wants to go into UR. A red one drop when nobody is on the all-out aggro plan. A green fatty when everyone's decided they have enough ramp and reanimator finishers already. Whatever the reason may be, some cards are going to go unwanted on any given night, but what if those late cards could be good? What if there were some cards whose value changed throughout the course of the draft - that got actively better as you identified that there wasn't any competing demand for them? There's no reason why three cards that you table late in pack two can't make your maindeck, otherwise we might as well be drafting packs that are a lot smaller. I agree that Squadron Hawk isn't the model of versatility that Gravecrawler might be, but I think you're selling it short if you're calling it "poisony" in the sense that it only fits into one archetype. Grapeshot is the embodiment of the poison principle. Squadron Hawk is not - it fits into a fair number of decks, and I'm already wondering if I should find room for Fauna Shaman to make a comeback, because those two go together like peanut butter and jelly.

Going back to my original post that started this back and forth, I'll grant that most aggro decks are not in the business of assembling a whole pile of Storm Crow wannabes, and I haven't forgotten about that problem. I still need to figure out how to boost white aggro, both in power and in fun factor. I'm just not convinced at the moment that cutting all the Hawks is the right answer. There's other white cards that can make way, but the birds - all five of them! - are safe for now.
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Perhaps I'm not explaining myself correctly: I'm not saying he's not worth a pick. I'm saying he's only worth a pick when you already have a few. They wheel and wheel until they wheel to you only. Just because they fit in aggro decks doesn't mean that description doesn't also fit rubbish like turnabout and heartbeat of spring.

It's...draft poisony I guess?

I think you might be overvaluing the excitement of the hawk drafter at the expense of the other 7 people at the table. God forbid people wisen up and take a hawk or two just to hedge that someone will be left with a miserable pile of underpowered 2 drops. Best of luck getting that curve to not be embareassing white drafters!

I get that you like the card, maybe you've got those promo versions and damnit if I take them out of my cube then what on earth am I going to do with these? I feel that the squadron approach is better because it doesn't take away real estate from everyone else. I know you generally have more playables than normal in cube than in traditional limited, but it seems backward to try and slip backward into that style for a single card.

Fun or no, I'm not sure you should be sacrificing half your white 2 drop slot for it.
 

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
I don't 'pimp' my cube at all. My Volcanic Hammer is a nice, ugly, white bordered 9th Edition version - the very same one that pops up in the tooltip. My basics are a mish mash of core set, Rise, and Innistrad lands. The only foil is a Torch Fiend that was donated by a friend from his pile of draft commons. I'm at the furthest point along the spectrum away from the all-foil mentality of a typical powered 'museum' cube.

Who's to say that there's a fixed number of white two drops in a 360 list? Isn't there enough room in this playground for your usual suite of white aggro beaters, along with a set (or more) of Squadron Hawks? I'm not following your insistence on why things have to be one way or the other. The argument doesn't resonate with me. If there are enough aggro bears in white, and there are a couple of extra slots to play with in the colour, does it really matter that I have double digits worth of two drops?

People hate draft Hawks all the time here, but they usually won't do it at the expense of taking a real card, like anything ninth pick or earlier. If it tables, and there's only three cards left in the pack, perhaps it's not the worst tactic to steal it and prevent someone from completing their playset. At the same time, you might decide that your deck has multiple ways to make use of extra cards in hand, and you might take a Hawk as early as, say, p1p7. I've certainly done so, and not regretted it.

Cube doesn't have the same problem as Limited, where you have a lot of worthless riff-raff that doesn't ever make anyone's main deck. So this actually gives us more room to play around with narrower effects, without needing to worry that the presence of these cards will derail people who are desperately scrambling for their 23rd playable. Now, it's a problem if a card is so narrow that it sits on the bench 90% of the time. But the Hawks are actually the opposite. I'd gather that when someone scoops up three or more copies - which is a pretty regular occurence - the drafter will run them 90% of the time.

I'm hearing the same arguments from you over and over, and I hate to say it, but it feels to me like you haven't tried this for yourself, and are attempting to criticize this exercise from a purely theoretical standpoint. Now, there's nothing wrong with a bit of theorycrafting, especially when you're constrained by a testing bottleneck. But sometimes ideas that you don't think will hold up actually turn out okay in practice. Try it yourself for a few drafts. Throw in a handful of Hawks, and see how your playgroup reacts. You might be surprised!
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Sorry about the delay, school is getting to me :p

I won't say there's a fixed number of two drops in a given cube. What I want to say is that you have a certain number (12) and quite a lot of those are hawks (5). I've found that I usually have a derth of really aggro oriented 2 drops between the more valuey guys (Suture Priest, Wall of Omens, Stoneforge Mystic, Loyal Cathar) and the real lack of above the curve guys (Basically only Spirit of the Labrynth for me, and Daring Skyjek and maybe Ajani's Pridemate in yours). Black has a bit of this problem as well, but I really want a few more over the curve creatures for my aggro decks, a problem the hawks really aren't solving :p
Does that make more sense?

I'll also say that I don't like the idea of leaning on the fact that you usually have more playables in cube. From what I remember you draft more often with a full table, so my 4-6 person drafting leaves a lot more room for you to just get color-fucked and have VERY little option of what you can play, just because that's how the packs looked. I definitely want to reduce that, and if there's 2-3 hawks in the draft and one gets hated...
I mean they aren't exactly demolish, but they're a bit close by cube standards :p

I will say I'm still not sold on it being a good draft experience. A card that either wheels or gets hate drafted doesn't sound like a good one to me, and having to wait until you've got a critical mass of them for them to be real picks doesn't either :(
I don't think i'll try it since white is one of the few sections I'm truely happy with right now, but I'll definitely admit there's some salt to be taken that I haven't actually drafted with the hawks. Not that my advice is without merit either :p
 

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
If you're drafting with four people somewhat regularly, I'd venture that 450 cards is waaaay too big of a list. Trim it down to 360, stat. No excuses. Make those hard cuts - life'll be better for everyone.

I'm not sure what else to tell you. The package of Hawks work here, and it's been working for well over a year now. They're better than chaff like Stormfront Pegasus that people commonly run in their white two-drop section. If you came to a draft or two (hint, hint), you'd see that for yourself. I'm sorry that you don't believe me, but them's are the facts.
 

Chris Taylor

Contributor
Part of the reason I want to keep it at 450 is to at least pretend like I want 8 man drafts :p

I'm not a huge fan of stormfront pegasus either, but hawks really better? I suppose it's worth a shot. (I dunno, is it worth the art downgrade from Mistral Charger? That card looks so pretty...)

Also I really should remind you I don't actually live in Toronto anymore. Guelph is about 30$ greyhound away, so it's not really like I can drop in for an evening :p
 
I may not agree with some of the choices you make Eric, but I do agree (to some extent) with the results. I like the balance you've achieved between limited and constructed feeling and power level. It's something pretty unique and it really shows when I show the boys other environments. Good show man. I think I need to start taking the points you make very seriously.
 

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
Squadron Hawk is such a sweet card.

I'm pretty sure the pick-one-get-four bundle of Hawks would be too good in my low-power skewing list, as they're decent enough already when you take them one at a time here. Maybe I should just shove four back in and call it a day.
 

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
I threw it in assuming it'd be a dud, but it's been pretty popular here, and something of a fan favourite. People like to run it in their aggro decks as a surprise damage-dealing tactic, and it fills that role pretty well in a colour that doesn't have many tricks that combine burst damage with pseudo-removal. Whether it's good enough in the environment is another question, but because people like it, I'm gonna leave it in for a while.
 
Thanks for the reply. Does it lead to feel bads? Ooh look, top deck this, crush you?

I'm thinking about some different themes for green, making it less about ramp into a big efficient guy and more about angry big guys with huge smashy attacks and I'm considering revenge as part of that. I may give it a whirl.
 

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
Nah, it's not that bad. Of the playable miracle cards, Revenge of the Hunted doesn't feel too unfair or soul-crushing, even at {G}. Part of it is that you aren't guaranteed to wipe their board, like with a Bonfire - anything from a tapped creature on their part to an evasive creature on yours means that you'll often only snag a utility guy or two. It most often acts as a quick burst of burn damage, but in green, that incidentially takes out some random dudes as collateral damage.

If you want green aggro to be a thing around your parts, it wouldn't hurt to give Revenge a try. Worst case is that it doesn't work for your group, and you can swap it back out. I like that green has big finishers like Overrun for the midrange and tokens decks, and now it has a corresponding effect for the faster decks, too.
 

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
I've tried them both at various points, and they're both pretty underwhelming. It's mostly the mana they tie up turn after turn that makes them too slow to be practical. Icy Manipulator has been legal in a lot of Standard formats, but it hasn't done anything since the mid-90's. Magic is just too fast nowadays, I suppose.
 
I feel like they support the tempo lockdown decks I like and the wrath decks I love. I'm imagining having a staff in play before terminus as opposed to say having cast a journey on something.
 

Eric Chan

Hyalopterous Lemure
Staff member
Yeah, I hear you. They're definitely aimed at the control decks and only the control decks. While I really wanted them to work out for the exact reasons you mentioned, in practice they never did much of anything, or were too unwieldy to activate every turn.

Don't forget that while my cube is of a slightly lower power level than your traditional cube, it's still way, way faster than most every cube out there. Aggro decks have you in lethal damage range by turn four pretty regularly, at which point no lockdown artifact is going to save you.
 
How are you liking crib swap?

I've been looking for spirit and arcane cards for tallowisp to trigger off and good ones are extremely lacking, which got me thinking about swap and nameless inversion.
 
Top