Erik's "The cool side of Magic" cube

S

Schafkurai

This is a really interesting discussion! I've been thinking quite a bit about the right number of archetypes for my cube, or the strategies that a a certain color / combination of colors should support and its not that easy (for me).

I like the idea to give more room to pivot with the cards you draft and I'm sure there always will be sideboard underperformers, no matter how hard you try to get rid of them.

What I've been struggling with when catering to a lot of different archetypes in a color combination is, that the decks feel and play less cohesive. For instance, I know that my self-discard archetypes in grixis are very well or even over supported and each draft has 1-2 decks in that space and I like that. The synergies really come together in different ways and aggro-midrange-control are viable. A lot of other archetypes (lands in bant, diverse flavors of artifacts) seem to be all over the place on the other hand and often don't manifest as a cohesive archetype/deck but more like pockets of synergy that don't end up being more than the sum of their parts. They are functional but it's difficult to even categorize what they are.

So, obviously there is no best way to build up archetypes but many different ones that can work:
- archetypes per color pair
- very broad archetypes across multiple colors
- 1-card buildarounds
- strategies with a core in one color (e.g. reanimator)

I definitely think that packages (like the one with replenish) complement broader archetypes nicely and help to get more mileage out of your 360 cards. They might end up in the sideboard but are definitely worth it, if the deck manifests evey few drafts.

As for the specific cards you mention, I have Valakut Exploration in my cube but it hasn't seen a ton of play so far.. I plan on adding Virtue of Persistence though!

PS: I'm patiently waiting for your V5 primer, Inscho but I'd also be very interested in knowing, what your 40 archetypes are, if you'd be willing to share!
 
inscho

inscho

Schafkurai said:
PS: I'm patiently waiting for your V5 primer, Inscho but I'd also be very interested in knowing, what your 40 archetypes are, if you'd be willing to share!
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I’ve started a new primer several different times only to stop before I get even halfway. Just never seems to be enough time to put it together, and I feel like I set the bar a little high for myself with the last one

But it’s long overdue. Maybe I’ll take another crack at it!
 
Erik Twice

Erik Twice

Schafkurai said:
This is a really interesting discussion! I've been thinking quite a bit about the right number of archetypes for my cube, or the strategies that a a certain color / combination of colors should support and its not that easy (for me).
Click to expand...
It's hard and sometimes the cards you need just don't exist.

Personally, I just go through cycles of just changing cards in and out and being careful about what archetypes exist and how they are performing. Simply drafting a ton and making a list of what decks were drafted can help a lot.

As I've worked in my cube, I feel my archetypes have improved like this:

Forced archetypes -> Disjointed archetypes -> Lean archetypes -> Intermixing archetypes

You say something very important, which is that not all archetypes work the same way. We apply the word to very different things, each of which has different needs. For example:

- Spells Aggro requires a high density of both cheap enablers (Brainstorm) and cheap payoffs (Young Pyromancer)
- Humans only needs a few payoffs (Thalia's Liutenant) and a high density of enablers (Human creatures)
- Wildfire requires a few, but specific enablers (Mana Ramp, creatures that survive it)

I find decks in category 1 to be likely over or underperformers. Category 2 is the easiest. Category 3 is either an easy fix or a very difficult one.

If your cube's archetypes are already mixing well, then adding packages can be a good way to create new archetypes. It's relatively easier and it gives you an idea of how many slots you have available to play with.
 
ravnic

ravnic

inscho said:
I hone my card selection periodically by reidentifying each of my main guild archetypes. I aim for 4 distinct archetypes within each guild….often the distinction is play style and win condition, but there is mechanical/thematic overlap

Like dimir has a couple archetypes rooted in self-mill…one is a creature heavy dredge deck and the other is a combo deck with a low creature count that wins with something like Thassa’s Oracle or reanimated fatty….thematic overlap but dynamically different. They use many similar cards to very different effect

This gives you 40 guild archetypes before adding a third/fourth color. Which has been a sweet spot for me at 360 cards.
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I would honestly be very interested in hearing about your 40 archetypes as well :o
 
Erik Twice

Erik Twice

Safra sent me a few Legacy Replenish decklist and I love how they look. First, you have what I think is the best approach: Just using it a big value card with cheap or general-use enchantments:

Colossal Landstill


But it's a shame I cannot replicate this, because it looks amazing:

Opalescence combo Landstill


I'll probably cut Academy Rector. It's such a limiting card because it only cares about big enchantments, it suffers from 24th card syndrome otherwise. It's also a shame the Phyrexian Dreadnought variants are hard to put into a cube, too.
 
Erik Twice

Erik Twice

I'm reworking the chunk of the cube that isn't performing and one archetype I'm hopeful for is RG Monsters:



EDIT: Forgot about this:



Most of these cards were already in my cube or, at least, I tried them at some point. My hope is that Mawloc and Pyrogoyf can push the archetype into being playable.

It might seem like a high hope to turn around an underperformer just by adding or improving two cards, but a couple good, reliable slots do more for an archetype than an endless amount of mediocre support. Most notably, it increases the count of 4-power creatures to a level where Flamewake Phoenix should be playable.

The graveyard focus isn't an issue, since the cube leans towards it. In fact, it should make for a more interesting build.

Still, RG Monsters has the issue of not being disruptive. It has burn and creature kill, but, at the end of the day, "big" isn't an answer to wraths, token spam or storm. I would love to see a green hatebear, but I'm not fond of the choices I have.

I would also like an equipment to replace Heirloom Blade, which is nice, but unnecessary at this point. At worst, I might replace it with Conjurer's Mantle. I see a couple options but I'm not too attracted to either of them:



Talking about equipment, is this an interesting card or is just a bad Oblivion Ring variant? What about Sunforger?



--

I can't make Sneak Attack work. The reason, as I see it, is that there aren't many good cards for it that aren't either stupidly powerful or useless outside of it. Stuff like this is hopelessly mediocre:



So far the two cards I do like are these, but they are narrow and require other colours:



Trumpeting Carnousaur isn't expensive enough to justify Sneak Attack and I don't like the creation of unexplanined tokens. So I wonder if I should give it up and cut it.
 
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Nanonox

Nanonox

Have you considered switching to a different cheat package that would allow you to wirk with different targets? Oath could still fit, but Tinker and Welder would be less effective.



With these ones, you can fit some fatties more in line with your goals?



Then you have the busted stuff like Atraxa if you want to give it a go.

———-
RG monsters: my fear with Pyrogoyf and Mawloc is that yes, they will occasionally make for a RG beatdown deck, but often times, I imagine any RX or GX deck just splashing them for value as they are really strong by themselves.

I’ve been thinking about the archetype too and there are 2 things I want
1. Cards that can bridge the gap between early and mid game



2. Some big X spells to make the most out of your mana dorks like Goldvein Hydra and Shivan Devastator.

Maybe a third type of card like Robber of the Rich as aggressive value cards.

What I haven’t found is space to fit all of that! Eager to see how you make it work!

Edit: Protean Hulk!
 
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N0oh

N0oh

I dont think playing "big dumb beaters" is a real plan nowadays, and that's why gruul monsters is bad in cube and in retail limited. Getting ahead of curve is one of the way for RG to win, and lumberjack is really good at this, I would try it to improve the archetype.

On sneak attack, well...the power of the card obviously changes depending of the number and powerlevel of fatties you have.

I have found assimilation aegis to be really good, it makes stoneforge an even higher pick in UW control or tempo. It takes a gold slot tho, so its not an easy include, but it's a good card.
 
TrainmasterGT

TrainmasterGT

Nanonox said:
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Fanatic of Rhonas is a card I really like– it's basically playable Whisperer of the Wilds, which was one of my favorite cards back in the day!
 
Nanonox

Nanonox

I was wondering if you had feedback regarding the Prototype cards that you play.



I am looking for ways to trigger Simulacrum Synthesizer and these two seem pretty good! They would let me shave an artifact fatty and still keep my density and give me some cool blink targets. I am already thinking of using Phelia, Exuberant Shepherd on turn 2, casting either one, then attacking and blinking for full value.

Have they been any good?
 
Erik Twice

Erik Twice

Nanonox said:
I’ve been thinking about the archetype too and there are 2 things I want
1. Cards that can bridge the gap between early and mid game



2. Some big X spells to make the most out of your mana dorks like Goldvein Hydra and Shivan Devastator.

Maybe a third type of card like Robber of the Rich as aggressive value cards.

What I haven’t found is space to fit all of that! Eager to see how you make it work!

Edit: Protean Hulk!
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Focusing on a different cheat package is something to consider, particularly if I want to differentiate the artifact deck from, well, everything else! Personally, I don't like Natural Order much (why? isn't Tinker better already?), but Flash looks like something more of us should try.

I never liked Robber of the Rich, it just does nothing on the play which is 50% of the time. I do like all the other cards you've mentioned. Fanatic of Rhonas has an abusive statline, though, being a 1/4 will be hard to beat.

Magda is underrated and the treasure ability can work in our cubes. We have ton of treasures and small cheat packages to play a dragon or two. For me the biggest issue is the dwarf thing, it will mislead my drafters.

Nanonox said:
I was wondering if you had feedback regarding the Prototype cards that you play.



I am looking for ways to trigger Simulacrum Synthesizer and these two seem pretty good! They would let me shave an artifact fatty and still keep my density and give me some cool blink targets. I am already thinking of using Phelia, Exuberant Shepherd on turn 2, casting either one, then attacking and blinking for full value.

Have they been any good?
Click to expand...
I'll be honest, Fleshgorger has only been ocasionally used for its Prototype ability, while I added Steel Seraph because I just saw it in your cube.

The main use of Fleshgorger is as a "fair cheat target". The lifelink provides a huge payoff, but it takes time to do so, and it doesn't trigger on either entering or leaving the battlefield. Since it's also colourless, it can slot in a wide variety of decks, even if it's not the best or most powerful answer. Besides that, here's where it has found a home:

1) Blink ( {W} ): My white, creature-based decks often include cheat packages, like Reanimate or Windbrisk Heights. Phyrexian Fleshgorger can come in as a target for those but also for blink. The main issue here is the {1}{B}{B}, it's hard to splash it.
2) Control Reanimator ({B}{R}{U} ): Most often, my reanimator decks have control elements. Fleshgorger is a good target because it lets you recoup the life lost from Reanimate and your opponent's attacks. If you have played with Murderous Rider, you probably know this is nicer than it seems. You can also play it as a 3/3 lifelink blocker. If they don't kill it, you either gain life or prevent them from attacking. If they do, you can reanimate it.

Is that a lot? Well...not really. It's a good card and it fits my cube where I want it to be. But it's not a great synergy card or perfectly placed slot

N0oh said:
I dont think playing "big dumb beaters" is a real plan nowadays, and that's why gruul monsters is bad in cube and in retail limited. Getting ahead of curve is one of the way for RG to win, and lumberjack is really good at this, I would try it to improve the archetype.
Click to expand...
You are probably right on both counts. In the end, "keyword: big" has never been powerful.
 
Erik Twice

Erik Twice

After going through countless changes, I've realized that I just don't have enough archetypes in my cube. That's why I can cut and add so many cards, they could all be Brushwhagg and nothing would change!

Here's a rought list of my archetypes:

AGGRO

Humans

Artifacts

Spells

Discard/Graveyard

Counters


AGGRO-COMBO AND TEMPO

Earthcraft

Blink

Tempo

Aristocrats


MID-RANGE AND SMALL CONTROL

Trinkets

Monsters

Pod
Birthing Ritual Sandstorm Salvager Meren of Clan Nel Toth
Pox


CONTROL

Wildfire

Lands

Replenish

Oath

Classic control


COMBO

Reanimator

Storm

Sneak Attack


The great thing about this list is seeing how many cards from one archetype fit in another. The bad one, is that there's not much else I can think of that works at high power. I can improve some of the items on the list, like making Counters more widely playable or preventing the awful performance of Sneak Attack, but I do need new archetypes. And I cannot think of many!
 
Erik Twice

Erik Twice

I've been tweaking the cube, partly to smooth out mana curves, get rid of underperformers and such. Still, there's some archetype work as well:

RED COPY STORM

I had already wet my feet with a couple cards, so I decided to try the rest:



My expectations are low, but I do hope the Seething Songs get played in other decks:



BERSERK

I kept thinking about this cute interaction:

Duelist of the Mind Berserk

I wonder if I could push it a bit, and boost spell decks in the process.



The rest are just cute little changes, like taking out Cathar Command for Leyline Binding,
 
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