Card/Deck Fair Tinker

Alfonzo Bonzo

Alfonzo Bonzo



Laz has an interesting comment in one of Hathaway's theads in the decks forum around the difficulties he experienced in getting tinker to work, mostly due to lack of enough suitable artifacts and targets that were probably too fair. Somebody more technically minded might be good enough to quote his comments below.

I'd be disappointed if we can't get fair tinker to work and be fun at the same time, so what targets are there that are fun but not broken (all power levels). I'll start:




And then what about value stuff to sacrifice to it?



What else?
 
RavebornMuse

RavebornMuse

It's a nice idea, but in my experience, it's usually a trap.

The problem is that Tinker, when "fair", is a lot less exciting than "value reanimator", the development that "Fair Tinker" tends to be mentally derived from. The issue is that value reanimator buys you back an expired/binned threat, which is awesome, and it functions as an insurance policy/anti-removal that you can hold strategically. When I go a game without having to cast a reanimate spell, it's a game I've probably won, so that's fine.

Tinker does not have that depth of play, and does not feel good to wait on. "Fair Tinker" tends to mean you're sinking a fair glob of mana into a very specific tutor card that ALSO eats another specific card in the process. The payoff for a 2-card, 3+mana tutor effect is rarely justified for most "fair" targets. It's a gameplan comparable to Bring to Light, except BtL actually offers other avenues if you pull what you need off the top. With Tinker, you generally have one target, and if you draw it... oops. Guess you now have to spend 1-3 more mana to cast it, and have a dead card in-hand.

I just don't see it really working out, unfortunately. Tutors are already kinda hard to justify because card quality is so nice in most cubes. Tinker, meanwhile, is extremely narrow and requires set-up and a different set of draft priorities. Even a best-case scenario of T3 Duplicant off a Perilous Myr gets you, what? A Shock Will of the Council that only eats a creature and gives you, likely, a 2/1 body in return? I just don't think it plays well. Heck, even when I ran bonkers Tinker in my cube, it was never a very great plan, and required too many specific pieces to justify - Brainstorms, cheap lil artifact craps, and artifatties all moving really high up in my priorities for... a deck that wants to Solitaire to victory T4? meh. I'd recommend if you want a cool tutor effect in your cube, Rhystic Tutor and Insidious Dreams are hella awesome. But Tinker.. I think it's a trap.
 
Grillo_Parlante

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Lucre

Lucre

What exactly do you goofballs believe is a fair return for spending 3 mana and 2 cards to get a cool card. How cool should this card be?
 
Grillo_Parlante

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Perhaps you might share your list with us so that we can all see the correct way to provide the correct density of disposable artifact sacrifice targets and fair tutor targets?
 
Onderzeeboot

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
I gave up on Tinker. When it's really cool for the caster it's unhealthy for the game imo, plus I want to be able to cube Myr Battlesphere, which is an awesome card, without the fear of having to face it on t3.
 
Diakonov

Diakonov

I might experiment with Tinker. Since I'm running a welder theme already it actually fits pretty smoothly.

Don't forget about artifact lands! They're an important support system to themes like this. Also, let me say this: squad Myr Servitor has mostly been a success.

These are some of the welding targets I'm currently running.



Some other artifact generators for sacking:

 
B

blacksmithy

I run tinker, and so far it's been mildly successful. My drafters are a little scared to commit, but ive seen it included in several ramp/control lists as a plan B to get that fatty out.
I'd say Scuttling Doom Engine is imo about where most Riptide lists want to be in terms of a "premier" target. He's big and mean and scary, but he's nowhere near as oppressive as his wurm cousin. Battleball toes the line.
I second the notion of running stuff like whirler to give you fodder. They dont require nearly as much architectural support as the wellsprings (though grillos cube that supports wellsprings is really cool and worth emulating if you want low power levels).
 
Grillo_Parlante

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Rasmus Källqvist said:
Honestly I believe that was just an open question.
Click to expand...


hmmm....well if thats the case, than:




I think you kind of need targets though that will semi-lock up the game. Due to the investment that tinker requires, its a terrible tool box tutor, so you want tinker targets that win the game, but not on the spot. To achieve that, I think you need artifact recursion of some kind, which is where you start to run into density issues, and want to layer it with other recussive based artifact themes (e.g. welder).
 
Laz

Laz

Developer
How about I transpose my quote?

Laz said:
I have spent quite a bit of time tinkering with Tinker, and I still not convinced it is an fantastic path to go down. In theory Tinker creates an interesting draft subgame, and acts as a powerful and versatile tutor for a range of effects. In reality, most decks have 1-2 cards that are kind of worth getting, and the flexibility of the card is never really showcased. While this may be entirely due to my targets, Tinker often acted as a method by which slower decks would access controlling cards ahead of schedule. They didn't use it to turn a corner, to start trying to win the game, rather just used it to lock down the game a little bit more. Trading a mana rock for a Gilded Lotus to ramp and fix (which was neat, and I did see on hell of a turn 3 play of 'tap Mindstone and 2 lands for Tinker, get Gilded Lotus, land, Wrath') and a turn 3 Staff of Nin is a neat trick for a control deck, but I am not sure it is worth both the deck building contortions and often the card investment for these outcomes.
I don't think I ever saw someone Tinker away an expended Tangle Wire, or grab a Phyrexian Revoker (Duplicant however was a common target) or a Nevinyrral's Disk (too slow) or any of the super cool plays I had in mind. The Masticores were also hugely underwhelming.
I have been trying to think of Tinker as closer to a reanimation spell, but due to the artifact restriction, the range of targets are limited, and a lot of the strong ones come too close to 'Ok, I win', or are simply cards I don't really want in my environment (I am looking at you Wurmcoil Engine...)

I hate to take the wind out of your sails, and I am interested in where you choose to go with it, but in my experience it has been a little underwhelming. If you are looking at my thread for inspiration, I would probably be advising that you can push the targets a little harder than I did. Possibly something like Platinum Angel or Platinum Emperion was where I wanted to be. Bosh has been ok, but is quite a removal check. When you get to untap with him, he represents so much damage, and feels kind of similar to Kalonian Hydra, with that said, that effect is much more tolerable at 8 mana instead of 5. I suppose you could argue he is more synergistic, in that he can fling other artifacts or the like, but that is like pointing out that Kalonian Hydra pitches to Force of Will.
Click to expand...

I like some of the ideas here, and I think Grillo provides a reasonable philosophy, with:
Grillo_Parlante said:
You want tinker targets that win the game, but not on the spot.
Click to expand...

This is somewhat in contrast to the philosophy I applied when I was building the first time, which was:
a) A variety of artifacts which act as answers or threats in themselves
b) No huge artifacts that can win the game by themselves
Click to expand...
As my list evolved, I started to shift from the latter to the former, removing some of the 'stall the game' cards and adding better threats. I think the best approach is to start scaling up the Tinker targets until it breaks, but it may be that it is too awkward to make work, and takes too much space in your environment.
 
Onderzeeboot

Onderzeeboot

Ecstatic Orb
I think the problem with Tinker is it begs for broken plays, but gets a lot less interesting if there aren't any. In powered cubes you can go t2 trade Mox for Wurmcoil, which is fantastic, but things get significantly less exciting the more turns you have to wait to use it and the less powerful the target gets. I think Welder and Daretti offer much more interesting lines of play.
 
B

blacksmithy

A thought occurs to me. The "unfair" aspect of Tinker comes from its ability to ignore mana cost. So rather than try to make Tinker fair, why not try to make the eminently-comparable (in all except maximum power level) Fabricate playable? Better yet, why not try to do both?
 
RavebornMuse

RavebornMuse

blacksmithy said:
A thought occurs to me. The "unfair" aspect of Tinker comes from its ability to ignore mana cost. So rather than try to make Tinker fair, why not try to make the eminently-comparable (in all except maximum power level) Fabricate playable? Better yet, why not try to do both?
Click to expand...


I like this idea a great deal more, but I think you'd need a slow environ or some really busted targets for Fabricate to see routine play, and I'm personally pretty wary of including sweet niche theme supporters (as opposed to sweet niche build-arounds, of which I am more permissive). I've looked longingly at that card many a sleepless night, don't get me wrong, but Enlightened Tutor is way better and more flexible, while also not really being super powermax-y, since it doesn't draw you the card, it just sets it up, and it has never felt oppressive since I cut the most broken crap. While I admit that Enlightened Tutor might be a shade strong for some low-power environs, and I think 2 more mana to put the target in hand definitely seems tempting and like a fair trade-off, the artifact-only restriction on a tutor in a colour that is swimming in card selection already seems suspect; I think I may try it at some point since my environ lacks the sweet card draw spells many of you run (ie Thirst for Knowledge and company, which I can never seem to cram in), but I'm just not sure how often it would actually see play. If it was at least instant speed, I'd be more open, but it's not, so I'm just really wary of how well it could do without sculpting the proper supply of artifacts to feed it. I definitely like the card more than Tinker though, as far as workable U-artifact archetype cards go, and I think it has real potential.

Re: Lucre's question; I'm over here sinning with T1 Entomb Sire of Insanity, T2 Animate Dead so I'm gonna have to pass on the "what is a fair return on 2 cards and 3 mana" question, because my perspective is way different than most here prolly since I like a little busted-ness here and there and I am a firm doubter of Tinker's appropriateness for non-powermax lists. I think it's a good question tho, and definitely one that anyone interested in actually designing an effective Tinker-friendly environment needs to actually try to answer, because it's an easy space to get lost in thinking theoretically while neglecting real-play considerations imo.
 
B

blacksmithy

My answer to Lucre's question is:
Acceptable: Precursor Golem/Spine of Ish Sah
Good: Scuttling Doom Engine/Contagion Engine
Great: Myr Battlesphere/Mindslaver (tho i hate slaver)
Too much: Wurmcoil Engine
 
Lucre

Lucre

I kinda like black smithy's level of ambition more than grillos.

finding a fucking perilous vault from eating my two cards at a cost reduction of one mana tastes like desperation to me.
 
Grillo_Parlante

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
Thats why I suggested pairing it with recursive elements, so it plays a bit like the blue tron decks in modern. Have it be an actual deck archetype that tinker happens to be a part of rather than a build around. I think thats the main design mistake with it: tinker is thought of a bad build around. I think it works better as a piece of a broader archetype.

I've ran the tinker->battlesphere/golem package before, and its not really fun. Its just a removal check at the end of the day. I kind of feel like we're retreading old ground with that.

Another aspect of the design is because tinker is such a narrow card, their tends to only be a handful of targets in any given deck, which can create awkward spots where you draw the intended target and tinker becomes dead. I had that happen numerous times to me when I ran it, and at the end of the day the card (as a build around) felt almost like a very restrictive reanimation plan (which brings us back to an expanded artifact recursion theme as a work around). I also had a difficult time getting people to go into it, because its just so narrow as a build around.

It dosen't have to be vault, I just rather like vault, o-stone, and disk, because they deal with difficult permanents cube badly needs non-narrow answers to. Its space efficent to run those cards, and I don't mind tweaking the speed of the cube to make it so that the untap on them isn't fatal to the control deck running them.
 
vennythekid

vennythekid

This derails from discussing Tinker specifically, but its sorta relevant.

Grillo_Parlante said:
Thats why I suggested pairing it with recursive elements, so it plays a bit like the blue tron decks in modern. Have it be an actual deck archetype that tinker happens to be a part of rather than a build around.
Click to expand...

Is "Blue Tron" something that could happen in a Cube environment? Specific elements of Modern U-Tron:


The main recursive elements here are Academy Ruins and Spell Burst, and these are possible because the deck gains a massive mana advantage over its opponents very quickly.

The other deck running these style cards is the Grixis Slaver deck in Vintage. Uses Tinker and Welder to cheat out Mindslaver/Fatty early and control the game from there. Obviously Vintage has more artifact support for Tinker/Welder than the average environment.

So cards that we already run that play with these cards:


The question is: how good is Mindslaver for a cube enviornment? Is it just another finisher? Or can it be made into a "combo" style control deck where the opponent has to win before the "critical turn" where there's enough mana to recure it every turn? And can that either be cohesively included into a cube list so that it plays well with other control archetypes?
 
Grillo_Parlante

Grillo_Parlante

Contributor
I think its possible, with people starting to be more critical of planeswalkers it gives both control and midrange decks more room to grow.

I think mindslaver can work, but the blue tron deck can sometimes win cames just by recurring o-stone, or titan, or wormcoil. Its the inevitability that academy ruins grants thats important. So I think thats really what you are looking for in terms of a target. I'm not sure how you are going to create a big mana feel, so I'm imagining more of a slow control deck that converts early game value artifacts into late game inevitability.

One of the other problems that tinker has is that cube's traditionally don't have a high artifact count. At 360 it tends to be 25-30 cards, which is going to be rough on an archetype that is based around that permanent type. So you are going to have to include artifacts in the colors you think this deck is going to show up in.



Another card that would work very well as part of an expanded graveyard based artifact theme

 
B

blacksmithy

FWIW i don't run any of the tinker targets i marked as "great" or better right now (though i was loath to cut the battleball).
As far as a tron feel for cube, i run the cloud/glimmerpost package in my uld, and its very popular. Last night someone tried to make BR post, and i made Ur post with mill as a wincon.
Sadly the 3-0 deck was GW "little kid" and was so ridiculously broken compared to everything else drafted that we had to ban Gideon Jura and Behemoth Sledge that very night.
Anyway my point is that using Posts with Academy Ruins feels like Tron if thats what you want. But Posts can enable lots of other silly stuff too.
 
Alfonzo Bonzo

Alfonzo Bonzo

The other card that springs to mind when thinking about artifact recursion is:



You're right Grillo I think in that you have to consider Tinker part of an artifact package rather than an independent build around. I've been quite frosty on Tinker for a long time as traditionally it enables broken plays because of the mana discount that you get for fetching an expensive card, and people using things like the pro red/green sphinx for it and reanimator. I've come round to it mostly because of the push that Daretti originally gave to encourage artifacts, which was then followed up with Pia and Whirler. What I like about tinker is that it encourages the artifact deck, if you have the components there to encourage and support it.

Based on some of these discussions, I wonder if we're a few cards off this being a really good strategy. Perhaps it will 'get there' once we properly visit Chandra's home plane. Re other cards:



Might be worth trying in a lower powered environment.
 
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