Renegade, you have to do a lot of work for the dryad while the renegade could be properly supported in a cube where sac effects and gy themes already exist.
I really like them both, though.
I really like them both, though.
General Fight Club
- Thread starter Jason Waddell
- Start date
Chris Taylor
Contributor
I always found green counter dudes were father and few between than green graveyard cards, so I'd say renegade as well.
Also, revolt being close as it is to morbid, it's kinda a graveyard card as well, right?
Also, revolt being close as it is to morbid, it's kinda a graveyard card as well, right?
Yeah, I try to support a delirium subtheme, and I'm still probably going to make the switch! Which is a little bit sad still....
Sac just a different angle of GY matters, but also triggers with Blink effects, fetchlands, etc. its just a super solid card. First cube playable kird ape variant, imo (with a fetch manabase especially)
Chris Taylor
Contributor
I mean you could just run both 
vs. I stumbled upon the Temur Value thread by sigh and want to add one of those to be able to draw cards from my lands. Personally, I tend to Grace as you use it from the grave and it doesn't need to be recovered somehow if it gets countered/destroyed (as in the case of a Trade Routes already on the table). Maybe having cycle lands in the ULD may be enough to solve this problem?
I haven't played with either, but they honestly look very clunky. Grace in particular. 6 mana, discard a land to draw 2 cards? Yikes. Unless you are desperate for ways to discard lands, I think you are much much better off with Think Twice (lower power option) or Deep Analysis (higher powered version).
On a semi-related note, I think everyone should be running cycle lands (original onslaught ones that cycle for 1 colored mana - the ones that cycle for 2 colorless suck balls). Cycling is one of the best abilities in the game for smoothing draws and preventing non-games of magic. ETB tapped is a steep drawback, but if you have no source of a color it's better than color screw. I tend to run 1 extra land in my deck with the cycling lands because of how much better then are as cantrips though.
On a semi-related note, I think everyone should be running cycle lands (original onslaught ones that cycle for 1 colored mana - the ones that cycle for 2 colorless suck balls). Cycling is one of the best abilities in the game for smoothing draws and preventing non-games of magic. ETB tapped is a steep drawback, but if you have no source of a color it's better than color screw. I tend to run 1 extra land in my deck with the cycling lands because of how much better then are as cantrips though.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
Grace is a good card, but should be understood as being more of a late game draw engine for grindy midrange contests. At 3 mana, its too slow for early game smoothing (like think twice or whispers), but one of the ways you lose those matchups is falling behind on top decks. Grace helps turn redundant land hits into real cards, sifting your draws, granting you inevitability in the matchup, all while being immune to counter disruption.
In that role its a very strong card, but that role is admittedly fairly narrow.
In that role its a very strong card, but that role is admittedly fairly narrow.
Cycling Lands and Grace both interact nicely with LftL.
Where I am now with the archetype, the better tools to be using are likely:
And so on, which still work favorably with discarding lands, but are more broadly reaching. I'd probably go for Grace if I was to include one now, for reasons discussed above.
I do like cycling lands. <Cue the various basic land box discussions from this forums recent past>
Where I am now with the archetype, the better tools to be using are likely:
And so on, which still work favorably with discarding lands, but are more broadly reaching. I'd probably go for Grace if I was to include one now, for reasons discussed above.
I do like cycling lands. <Cue the various basic land box discussions from this forums recent past>
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
I don't know if I would so much say its playability is dependent on the power level of the format so much as format architecture (same goes for whispers of the muse). If we are both running high powered midrange decks whose attrition war grinds us down into a stalemate that will be broken by top decks, than oona's grace will objectively be a strong card in that context. Whether we are in a high power or a low power format, it still fills the same narrow role very well, and the narrowness of that role is going to be more the issue when deciding whether to give space to it.
Now, if by high power you mean the format is super condensed, and that niche role can never exist, than sure, its a bad card.
Now, if by high power you mean the format is super condensed, and that niche role can never exist, than sure, its a bad card.
Toss in Magmatic Insight. Seems perfect fit here.
The mentioned ONS cycle lands (those with coloured costs) already are in my ULD, and Think Twice and Deep Analysis both are in my cube list, but thanks.
Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, Monastery Siege and Frantic Search are my only blue looters so far, and adding Looter il-Kor, Jeskai Elder or the likes would lead to me removing Jace from the cube, as he is like ALWAYS a better choice than those are, which is something I do not want in my cube, as some may have already acknowledged.
I guess you're right that both of Grace and Routes aren't cards other decks than the lands deck really want so I guess I'll have to stick with other ones, like the aforementioned, or with usual discard outlets, of which I run plenty, too.
EDIT: I even doubled up on Magmatic Insight already but I wanted blue to be more appealing as a splash in lands, otherwise it like always has to be GRb and maybe white because of Knight of the Reliquary
Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, Monastery Siege and Frantic Search are my only blue looters so far, and adding Looter il-Kor, Jeskai Elder or the likes would lead to me removing Jace from the cube, as he is like ALWAYS a better choice than those are, which is something I do not want in my cube, as some may have already acknowledged.
I guess you're right that both of Grace and Routes aren't cards other decks than the lands deck really want so I guess I'll have to stick with other ones, like the aforementioned, or with usual discard outlets, of which I run plenty, too.
EDIT: I even doubled up on Magmatic Insight already but I wanted blue to be more appealing as a splash in lands, otherwise it like always has to be GRb and maybe white because of Knight of the Reliquary
I'm talking average card power level. If you are running mostly rare cards (even lower powered rares), I find it very hard to believe you will win more games with an Oona's Grace engine versus virtually any other card in it's place.
There's careful study. Also Careful Consideration if you need more draw/discard outlets. Those are pretty good.
You can also toss in some Waterfront Bouncer. That card can be especially potent. Doesn't look like much, but his ability is bonkers in creature dominated metas.
You can also toss in some Waterfront Bouncer. That card can be especially potent. Doesn't look like much, but his ability is bonkers in creature dominated metas.
this is the exact draw suite I'll be incorporating in my next patch. They help develop a blue card draw suite based more around filtering than draw power, and the fits beautifully into the U leg of my RUG archetype, especially with loam synergies. I've def been following that discussion from grillo pretty closely in his min max thread.
Grillo_Parlante
Contributor
In the context I described? The net result should be about even across cards, all other things being equal. You certainly won't be losing more games. The act of having TOL and draw manipulation versus not having TOL or draw manipulation is that strong--serum visions is several titanic levels nerfed compared to its competition, but is still manages to be a major card in modern. The mechanic is so strong and fundamental to the game, that you can basically butcher it past the point any other mechanic could survive, and it will still be extremely strong. Quite frankly, most of our formats would be fine with telling time when you get right down to it, and that card is bottom of the barrel.
Where you run into problems with grace is games/matchups that don't/won't mature to the point where it can take over a game. Most formats are too pressure focused now-a-days for it to have space to shine, but if you make an effort to provide a reasonable number of slower matchups, or generally slow the format down, it seems like a reasonable card to slot in and give a whirl--rares or no rares.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Jace is considerably worse than Looter il-Kor in an attacking deck with equipment and enchantment-based removal! So, while I will definitely pick Jace over Looter p1p1, that might change during p2, and especially p3, when I know the synergies with Looter are simply better.
Also, there's nothing wrong with having one option be better than the other most of the time. Having cards of divergent power level actually helps people making a choice. They can shortcut to a few picks, than decide which of those they want, instead of having to consider the whole pack. This also doesn't mean that the ignored cards won't be played, maybe a player deciding between Jace and Looter hopes to wheel the Looter because he is drafting reanimator? Jace might be the better card, that does not mean Looter is unwanted. Worse yet, by excluding the Looter because it's "ALWAYS" (it's not) worse than Jace, you're lowering the density of discard outlets at that mana cost. Maybe your cube actually wants multiple two-mana looters, does it matter in that case that one is slightly worse than the other? I know I'm droning on about this issue a bit here, but you used this exact same reasoning to exclude another card only a short while ago, and I believe it's misguided. By focussing on the details of how two cards compare to each other, you're missing the bigger picture.
In my experience the best reason to include blue in the lands deck is for Gifts Ungiven or Intuition. Both are great at finding Loam and other important cards, and work great with Retrace and utility lands in combination with the Loam engine.
For me, one reason to double up is to not include cards that are worse than others most of the time. I obviously thought about the correlation of il-Kor and Jace in the same way you described, but I rarely see blue decks attacking generally, at least not so aggressively that they would pick looter over Jace. That's why I'd rather double up on Jace than adding looter, although I think I get your point and I have to admit that wayyy before ORI was printed, I really loved Looter il-Kor for actually being the best 2-mana-looter out there, especially with a bonesplitter equipped, turning him into a reasonable threat while actually looting unwanted cards away. Still, I think that a 0/2 doesn't die as fast and may even block while looting, and in the end, you might get a free sorcery/instant cast, the potential of Jace as a value engine is just so much bigger than looter's as an aggressive threat - but maybe that's the crux, it's the way I see it, and it's horribly wrong; one has to be seen as an aggressive looter for decks that want to bring some damage here and there, while the other is a defensive one which brings value in the lategame.
I think I'm too strict there and should try it again, my biggest issue is that I rarely come to play cube with other players. :/
I think I'm too strict there and should try it again, my biggest issue is that I rarely come to play cube with other players. :/
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Oh, I have loved Ancient Excavation in testing so far. That card has never been bad! There have been turns where I eot looted seven cards with it, dumped a juicy target in my gy, only to reanimate it on my turn. Also, the basic landcycling isn't irrelevant when you're running more than two colors!Another couple looting effects I'm pondering over at the moment as I work on fully flushing out card filtering as a (more) important draw strategy in my format:
Didn't realize that Excavation exists until now. I'll definitely try it.
I'm suggesting the context you described shouldn't really be happening at higher power levels. Are top deck wars really that common these days? There's just seems to be so much built in CA/quality and raw power to just end games. What deck can afford to play a 3 mana cycle card in the hopes that they get to cycle top decked lands on T9?
Serum Visions is good because it costs 1 and smooths your draw. It's honestly not a great late game card. Grace costs 3 times as much and doesn't even have scry. Unless the draft went horribly for you, I'm pretty confident you want to be doing absolutely anything else on T3.