Chris Taylor
Contributor
Nah brah I meant what I said: fuck mishras factory 
Card/Deck Flagstones of Trokair
- Thread starter Jason Waddell
- Start date
Aoret
Developer
Some excellent points already made here since I last posted, so, in effort to not rehash too much, let me suggest that we want less Fatestitcher and more Thirst For Knowledge
That first bit we all agree on. Fatestitcher sucked. And while I think some very good points have been made on varying sides of this discussion, I do think that we can do a little better than "well you just have to accept that density isn't there" or "at least the synergistic cards are good in normal decks" or "restrict it to tight color pairings" or what have you. I do think there are compelling arguments behind each of those points, but I want to throw out something new to the discussion.
I'd been sitting around thinking over blue zombies, which is where we started this whole thing, and I realized that what I don't want is to push RB zombies into another color. I want xB zombies to feel differently based on what x is. When you look at our lists, there aren't actually zombies in red; our drafters end up in RB zombies because red lends itself to aggression (which zombies wants) and because goblin bombardment is one hell of an easymode blasting station. So in our undead case study, what you're left with is the challenge of incentivizing your drafters to be in something other than RB zombies.
Now, power level balance is a pain and we all know that, so I'm not gonna claim I have this solved off of just some silly theorycraft. But where I ended up while brainstorming this was "blue cards that are cool in zombies, supplement the deck, but aren't "for" the zombies deck. TFK is great because it's basically a control card, sometimes an artifact deck card, but also happens to be sweet when I'm binning bloodghast. These are the kinds of things I want to do to stretch archetypes into other colors.
The more I start to think this way the more I see (and value) cards that play these roles across a great deal of archetypes. This is the reason I tolerate Kitchen Finks despite the lack of a decision the card is p1p1-the card just does too much in too many archetypes. That may also be the danger in this approach; too many globally applicable cards results in easymode drafting and (incidentally synergistic) value piles. I have to believe though, that focused synergistic decks will always win out over handfuls of semi-synergistic cards.
What other hidden gems are you guys running that do the same thing I'm describing finks and TFK doing?
That first bit we all agree on. Fatestitcher sucked. And while I think some very good points have been made on varying sides of this discussion, I do think that we can do a little better than "well you just have to accept that density isn't there" or "at least the synergistic cards are good in normal decks" or "restrict it to tight color pairings" or what have you. I do think there are compelling arguments behind each of those points, but I want to throw out something new to the discussion.
I'd been sitting around thinking over blue zombies, which is where we started this whole thing, and I realized that what I don't want is to push RB zombies into another color. I want xB zombies to feel differently based on what x is. When you look at our lists, there aren't actually zombies in red; our drafters end up in RB zombies because red lends itself to aggression (which zombies wants) and because goblin bombardment is one hell of an easymode blasting station. So in our undead case study, what you're left with is the challenge of incentivizing your drafters to be in something other than RB zombies.
Now, power level balance is a pain and we all know that, so I'm not gonna claim I have this solved off of just some silly theorycraft. But where I ended up while brainstorming this was "blue cards that are cool in zombies, supplement the deck, but aren't "for" the zombies deck. TFK is great because it's basically a control card, sometimes an artifact deck card, but also happens to be sweet when I'm binning bloodghast. These are the kinds of things I want to do to stretch archetypes into other colors.
The more I start to think this way the more I see (and value) cards that play these roles across a great deal of archetypes. This is the reason I tolerate Kitchen Finks despite the lack of a decision the card is p1p1-the card just does too much in too many archetypes. That may also be the danger in this approach; too many globally applicable cards results in easymode drafting and (incidentally synergistic) value piles. I have to believe though, that focused synergistic decks will always win out over handfuls of semi-synergistic cards.
What other hidden gems are you guys running that do the same thing I'm describing finks and TFK doing?
I don't know about "hidden" gems, but these two are cube gems for sure:
These guys are amazing in sac. aggro as a way to push through the last points of damage (evasion from Rouge, Shock from Nalaar) while also supplying bodies to the sac. engine. They are fantastic control cards as they help stabalize a board and apply pressure at the same time (so maybe "midrange" by the way we've been throwing around the term lately). They work with artifact themes and equipment/go wide token strategies as well. They make great Pod food as they work up the chain while leaving bodies behind, and once dead "small" reamimation (power 2 or less) such as Revilark and Alesha work wonders. As a bonus, they're human! What's more, I think the casting cost (4) on each of them puts them in just the right spot to be powerful but not overbearing. These might be the single two most exiciting cube cards to be printed in a long time.
These guys are amazing in sac. aggro as a way to push through the last points of damage (evasion from Rouge, Shock from Nalaar) while also supplying bodies to the sac. engine. They are fantastic control cards as they help stabalize a board and apply pressure at the same time (so maybe "midrange" by the way we've been throwing around the term lately). They work with artifact themes and equipment/go wide token strategies as well. They make great Pod food as they work up the chain while leaving bodies behind, and once dead "small" reamimation (power 2 or less) such as Revilark and Alesha work wonders. As a bonus, they're human! What's more, I think the casting cost (4) on each of them puts them in just the right spot to be powerful but not overbearing. These might be the single two most exiciting cube cards to be printed in a long time.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
I see what you mean. RB zombies is defined mostly by bombardment, I've had success with a GB zombies deck that's mostly defined by Evolutionary Leap (And by Curse of Predation I guess? I don't actually run overrun, but I'm sure it'd be decent)
White Black is a strange one, since white doesn't really do sac outlets, it kinda doubles up on black's ability to conjure food as it were (Gravecrawler and Secure the Wastes both do really well with blasting station). You could add Reveillark or return to the ranks or similar, but most of the zombies creatures come back naturally anyways.
White's got better and more frequent anthems then green, if that counts, so you could whip out Ajani Goldmane and run people over with deathless 3/2s
Blue probably ends up being a lot like green: if you Thirst for Knowledge repeatedly, wrath to make the board even and then clean up because all your creatures don't care about wrath + all the free bodies you looted away, that's a plan. The problem then comes that none of the recursive guys can block, so you're wholly reliant on wrath (Well, damnation. Esper zombies?) to interact with your opponent.
Blue sac outlets are sparse, but not as much as white. Drowned Rusalka actually fits quite well into the above plan, but it's cumbersome as a 1/1 for 1, and that it takes blue mana to activate, making value chains off gravecrawler really color intensive. Stitcher's apprentice could work, but it's slow and only really gives you bears
There's also the various exploit creatures like Profaner of the Dead and Sidisi's Faithful, but they're oneshot effects, few in number, and decidedly balanced for limtied (Gurmag Drowner, I'm looking at you)
Most of these aren't really "hidden", but anyway:
I've also been trying to make an enchantment theme work, which is another reason why I've included a lot of the bestow creatures and god weapons.
Chris Taylor
Contributor
I don't actually run Trenches myself, just noticed the interaction. With Flagstones in play you don't lose a land, and the activation cost is reduced to . Not amazing, but functional.
. Not amazing, but functional.
Onderzeeboot
Ecstatic Orb
Trenches is also pretty cute with Crucible of Worlds, especially with cip effects on lands
Trenches is very, very good with anthem effects and Fortifies. I like the tension it creates, and how it can be a defensive card that switches to offensive mode in a whim. I also like how it rewards risk-taking. The awkward thing about it is that fast decks don't want to spend 3 mana on nothing, and slow decks don't want to sacrifice lands.
Aoret
Developer
Is it playable if the activation cost is 1? Tokens and semi-geddon effects are what I'm currently pushing in RW, and Naya in general to some extent (2x catacylsm, wildfire, boom//bust, greater gargadon...). Already running custom token makers in red that spit out humans instead of goblins soo....
Chris Taylor
Contributor
Well, you are Sacing your whole landbase...
Aoret
Developer
Compare devastating summons, a card nobody runs (turn 4, make two 4/4 tokens and cast a 3 drop, turn 5 make two 5/5 tokens and cast Hero of Oxid Ridge)
8 1/1 tokens is way more abusable than 2 4/4s, and it only scales better. Large creatures are easier to remove and chump.
Sacrificing your manabase is fine when that's the last spell you need to cast. Of course, you'd be open to Slice and Dice, but it's safe against most decks. Not even Pyroclasm helps, you can (and should) do this at EOT.
Give it a try if you're interested, and I haven't tested, but pretty sure it'll be broken. Hell, even untapping with Meloku is quite good.
Sacrificing your manabase is fine when that's the last spell you need to cast. Of course, you'd be open to Slice and Dice, but it's safe against most decks. Not even Pyroclasm helps, you can (and should) do this at EOT.
Give it a try if you're interested, and I haven't tested, but pretty sure it'll be broken. Hell, even untapping with Meloku is quite good.
...I run Devastating Summons...
Haven't been able to test it yet though
Haven't been able to test it yet though