Future Cycle

[inscho]

-is the current version of mill playable?

Nemesis of Reason is a red flag for me, and feels like it could be Jace, Memory Adept for your environment. You have a slower environment with a less than robust removal package. You will probably find it being drafted outside of any archetype concerns as a bomb.

I really like Codex Shredder as fair two-way mill support.

What do you want out of the archetype? Is it partially about making Ipnu Rivulet more dynamic?

===

I'm also curious to hear about the Morph package. Can you tell me a little bit about its inclusion? It stands out to me some as maybe a bit insular and could possibly be cut to open up for more flexible options. I haven't fully familiarized myself with this new list, it is just something that I noticed when scanning.

===

On the topic of mini-archetypes, I feel like I support a pretty wide range of archetypes in my cube. It's something I really prioritize in my cube design. I use the term fringe archetypes rather than mini, because it is more conducive to how I approach things.

In my experience, maximizing fringe archetypes mostly comes down to:
- Curating a suite of mechanics/themes that:
---- have maximum overlap with one another
---- that have relevance to most if not all colors
---- can be represented in a variety of theaters of play (aggro, midrange, control, combo)
- Committing to those mechanics in cube real estate
- Identifying cards that exploit the intersections of those mechanics in unique/axis-shifting ways (these open up the fringe archetypes)
- Editing out unnecessarily insular mechanics/themes

Editing down may sound a bit contrary to the goal of creating more mini archetypes, but I suppose that I'm challenging the implied compartmentalization that the term "mini" implies. That three cards constitutes an archetype.

I find that when themes are prevalent enough to become part of the foundation on which your archetypes are structured, it becomes easier to leverage the intersecting points into completely different styles of decks. This increases repeated play value and creativity.

So take for instance, I have heavy land, discard, and draw themes in my cube...I commit maximum space to making these themes a foundation for which the entire cube meta operates which can make a card like:



completely shift the way a deck operates. Suddenly a control deck starts turbo-cycling for an Approach of the Second Sun kill....or the Wildfire deck I'm drafting morphs into some bizarre ramp deck via Splendid Reclamation. It becomes a deck-defining card, but only because there's a dense supporting structure for it. I'm sure I could've used a less wacky example, but this was the first one that popped into my head. Hopefully it makes sense.

 

[GalacticTraveler12]

Nemesis of Reason is a red flag for me, and feels like it could be Jace, Memory Adept for your environment. You have a slower environment with a less than robust removal package. You will probably find it being drafted outside of any archetype concerns as a bomb.

I really like Codex Shredder as fair two-way mill support.

What do you want out of the archetype? Is it partially about making Ipnu Rivulet more dynamic?

===

I'm also curious to hear about the Morph package. Can you tell me a little bit about its inclusion? It stands out to me some as maybe a bit insular and could possibly be cut to open up for more flexible options. I haven't fully familiarized myself with this new list, it is just something that I noticed when scanning.

===

On the topic of mini-archetypes, I feel like I support a pretty wide range of available archetypes in my cube. It's something I really prioritize in my cube design. I use the term fringe archetypes rather than mini, because it is more conducive to how I approach things.

In my experience, maximizing fringe archetypes mostly comes down to:
- Curating a suite of mechanics/themes that:
---- have maximum overlap with one another
---- that have relevance to most if not all colors
---- can be represented in a variety of theaters of play (aggro, midrange, control, combo)
- Committing to those mechanics in cube real estate
- Identifying cards that exploit the intersections of those mechanics in unique/axis-shifting ways (these open up the fringe archetypes)
- Editing out unnecessarily insular mechanics/themes

Editing down may sound a bit contrary to the goal of creating more mini archetypes, but I suppose that I'm challenging the implied compartmentalization that the term "mini" implies. That three cards constitutes an archetype.

I find that when themes are prevalent enough to become part of the foundation on which your archetypes are structured, it becomes easier to leverage the intersecting points into completely different styles of decks. This increases repeated play value and creativity.

So take for instance, I have heavy land, discard, and draw themes in my cube...I commit maximum space to making these themes a foundation for which the entire cube meta operates which can make a card like:



completely shift the way a deck operates. Suddenly a control deck starts turbo-cycling for an Approach of the Second Sun kill....or the Wildfire deck I'm drafting morphs into some bizarre ramp deck via Splendid Reclamation. It becomes a deck-defining card, but only because there's a dense supporting structure for it. I'm sure I could've used a less wacky example, but this was the first one that popped into my head. Hopefully it makes sense.

Funny story, I read Nemesis of Reason as mill 7, but even then I was worried about it, and it would still probably be the strongest baneslayer that has ever been in the cube. I was justifying it by reasoning that a non-mill deck would need it to swing three times to win, and obv it dies to removal. I feel like at 3/5 and mill 7 it would be fair, but as printed it practically has "protection from red and green" seeing as you're not going to be able to profitably kill a 7 toughness creature with burn or fight spells. I'll try to find a replacement but so far the UB mill creatures I've seen look either pretty weak or busted (EDIT: Soaring Thought-Thief might be a good one).

I do really want to have both mill and self mill utilize Ipnu Rivulet, partially to make it better and partially because I think it's interesting to have a card or two like Bruvac, Nemesis, Oracle, or Approach pull you in one direction or the other during the draft. It can shift mill spells from being purely a value generator to a win-con in two ways that feel distinct and also have different effects on the way the drafter evaluates cards. I realize milling the opponent often looks less appealing when you have tons of graveyard synergy and cards like Thassa's Oracle and Approach that are strong payoffs for the self-mill approach. But the fact that mill is less disruptable than Approach and Oracle and carries more built-in inevitability gives it a unique identity, and I think that having a couple of powerful incentives to specifically mill the opponent (Bruvac, Nemesis) is all that is needed for it to be a deck. Aside: is Bruvac any good? The floor of a 1/4 for 3 is not good but that still bricks a lot of creatures, the average is probably a 1/4 that mills the opponent for 4, while the ceiling is it mills them for 8-12. It might be a bit lackluster, especially because there just aren't that many mill options in my list right now, but I've had trouble finding any other options.

Here's a mill deck I drafted on cubecobra:

I like this list a lot, with its artifact subtheme and ability to use Saheeli to copy Bruvac or Nemesis (although copying the latter is GRBS) and splash of Necromancer's Covenant to target their 'yard. But I do notice that it plays basically every mill effect in the cube, and although Ipnu, Dream Twist, Bond of Insight, and Nemesis would do the job (especially with Bruvac and Grim Discovery), a less lucky drafter might not end up with a critical density of those effects.

So I guess the diagnosis is to cut Nemesis for another UB creature that mills (Soaring Thought Thief?) and try to add a couple more mill effects in blue, and maybe replace Bruvac. I was just about to add Codex Shredder, really like the colorless recursion for self-mill decks and it's more flexible than Wand of Vertebrae.


I've been considering cutting morph for a long time, just because it takes up a lot of space and although all the morphs in the list fit into a lot of decks, the synergy they have is definitely a lot more minor than the average non-morph card. The reason they were originally added was as a form of mana-smoothing and also a way to include three color cards to "unlock" that would at least do something serviceable until you find your colors. It was easy to include lots of them because at such low power levels most everything felt vanilla and they actually compared positively.

At this point the 12 morphs I'm running could probably all be memorized, which seems inelegant--I don't really like that morph plays like either a total mystery or something you're writing down on a notepad during drafts and gameplay to try to guess more accurately. My playgroup definitely operates using the former method rather than the latter, which is fine, and those cards are popular with drafters, but it slightly bugs me. Anyways, the day I cut them will be the day I can come up with replacements for all of them that I can confidently say advance the design goals more than them. I have some ideas for that:

Master of Pearls > Soltari Champion or Pianna, Nomad Captain
Vesuvan Shapeshifter > Mythos of Illuna
Ratteclaw Mystic > Sakura-Tribe Elder
Grim Haruspex > Midnight Reaper
Den Protector > Eternal Witness
Akroma, Angel of Fury > something without protection

but these swaps aren't ones I feel strongly about. Mythos of Illuna, Sakura-Tribe Elder, and whatever would replace Akroma would probably be marked upgrades, but Midnight Reaper might actually be a touch pushed and Grim Haruspex potentially has more play to it. E-Wit is nicer with blink and unearth but also might be too strong for this list, and so on. So for now, I like the tension of running morphs and the decisions they create, but I'm also on the lookout for cards to make a wholesale replacement to the package someday, to test it out and see if they're missed.


I really like the example of Tectonic Reformation as well as the explanation, probably deserves its own thread with that explanation as the OP. That's definitely the kind of card I'm looking for, although this one may be atypical in that a wide variety of decks want it, and yet it manages to be a defining characteristic of any of the decks that include it. It's rare for a build-around-like card to almost be inter-archetype glue, though it is undoubtedly more frequent when there are such broad and deeply supported foundational themes. One of the reasons to support that model of archetype design!

I might actually steal Tectonic Reformation for my list since I run pretty much all the cards you listed, plus a RW cycling aggro theme. I never considered it before because I'm not running bouncelands and I already had cycling deserts, but your list also includes lots of cycling lands and only a couple bouncelands, so it should be worth a whirl. Thanks for all the feedback!

 

[Alfonzo Bonzo]

I'm really not a fan of Bruvac, it's a bit of a do nothing by itself, other than being a signpost. I'm going to add Vedalken Entrancer back in, which I think would be better than Bruvac. I like that it's interactive, and actually good when you copy it, lol - in your example, if you copy with Sahelli, the legend rule will kill one of them. What about Wall of Lost Thoughts? Is good with bounce and blink (you don't have a lot of bounce BTW, intentional?)

 

[inscho]

I do really want to have both mill and self mill utilize Ipnu Rivulet, partially to make it better and partially because I think it's interesting to have a card or two like Bruvac, Nemesis, Oracle, or Approach pull you in one direction or the other during the draft. It can shift mill spells from being purely a value generator to a win-con in two ways that feel distinct and also have different effects on the way the drafter evaluates cards. I realize milling the opponent often looks less appealing when you have tons of graveyard synergy and cards like Thassa's Oracle and Approach that are strong payoffs for the self-mill approach. But the fact that mill is less disruptable than Approach and Oracle and carries more built-in inevitability gives it a unique identity, and I think that having a couple of powerful incentives to specifically mill the opponent (Bruvac, Nemesis) is all that is needed for it to be a deck. Aside: is Bruvac any good? The floor of a 1/4 for 3 is not good but that still bricks a lot of creatures, the average is probably a 1/4 that mills the opponent for 4, while the ceiling is it mills them for 8-12. It might be a bit lackluster, especially because there just aren't that many mill options in my list right now, but I've had trouble finding any other options.

Oh, I get it. It's why I enjoy mill in my cube so much. I wrote a little blurb about it in the original post of my cube blog under Card & Mechanics Spotlight. A card that I really love is:



And with your lack of a blink package, could be a viable option for you? It might even be a little underpowered for you actually.

There's also:



The enchantments weaponize cycling in a fun/dangerous way.

I really like the example of Tectonic Reformation as well as the explanation, probably deserves its own thread with that explanation as the OP. That's definitely the kind of card I'm looking for, although this one may be atypical in that a wide variety of decks want it, and yet it manages to be a defining characteristic of any of the decks that include it. It's rare for a build-around-like card to almost be inter-archetype glue, though it is undoubtedly more frequent when there are such broad and deeply supported foundational themes. One of the reasons to support that model of archetype design!

I might actually steal Tectonic Reformation for my list since I run pretty much all the cards you listed, plus a RW cycling aggro theme. I never considered it before because I'm not running bouncelands and I already had cycling deserts, but your list also includes lots of cycling lands and only a couple bouncelands, so it should be worth a whirl. Thanks for all the feedback!

You should also look at:


Good on it's own, but can be an interesting finisher for cycle/discard strategies.

You could commit a little more heavily to cycling at your power level:


I would just want some small payoffs for cycling creatures. I like the cycling weenies with a micro reanimator suite:


Low impact, but fun.

Anything that cycles for or 1 colored mana is huge for smoothing gameplay, better than the morphs imo so maybe that's a path to explore? (I also talk some about cycling in the same place I talk about mill in my cube blog)

 

[inscho]

If you do go further down the cycling path, check out these cubes:

https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/apj
https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/i50

The 1st is closer to your power level than the 2nd.