Hannes' Novice Cube

[HannesVersmissen]

This is my first cube!

Lets get the basic out of the way first:
The google spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJbmiiuNrFPdDFwRVNtQ05URG9LN01KdkhtWWE3Wmc#gid=7

After drafting a pile of junk i had left from destroying EDH decks (and some piles of random commons), Me and one of my mate slammed the most ridiculously bad decks down and had some of the best fun we had in years. I felt obligated to build a cube from this moment onward. At first i looked around and tried to get something toghter from stuff around the house. Quickly i downsized though, from 7 EDH-decks to 2 decks, So i had the range to trade my cube into excistence.

It was already quite clear to me that i wouldn't be taking the power-max route, and that i wouldn't be reading up too much in the MTGS Cube-corner. Drafting and talking with Jason helped a lot too. (thanks for that !)

My first "Archetype" I dived into was Mono-Red Control. It "scars" my cube pretty strongly, taking various elements away from other colors (White lacks sweepers, green lacks strong late-game creatures, etc.). In return some unconventional colors had to fill in the aggro section. Green and Black seemed most fitting to do so, while white still has it's white-weeny available. However White and red love to get quite mid-rangy togheter.

Blue just sits on the side and watches the other colors squabble among themselves in the kiddo-corner, occasionally inviting one over for a match of chess.

Sometimes i'll skip updating, but this cube changes quite often because it's still so young (two months) and each week i get to trade and alter the contents.

I'll be making a Second list in the future, constructing a cube from the ground up so that i can make it skill-testing and layered.

 

[Jason Waddell]

After grid-drafting your set, the biggest comments I would have is that it didn't feel like there were enough colors picking up the aggro slack where red was missing out.

It also felt like the most successful approaches were to take expensive evasive bombs (Kaiga, Drogskol Reaver, Wolfir Silverheart, white 5drop fliers) and hope to get there. Especially in a slow cube, these bombs really dominate the board, with few ways to punish a player for going after expensive strategies. Part of the issue is that your expensive cards are of very high power level (e.g. Kaiga isn't that much worse than Frost Titan or Sphinx of Jwar Isle), but your aggro section is way worse than a typical cube's aggro selection.

Somebody once said that if you label each of your creatures in your cube "aggro" "midrange" or "control", you should have about a 31 ratio between them. I've never really tested to see if this is complete bunk or not, but a balance is definitely key to a good environment.

I'm all for doing unconventional things in an environment, and think you have some interesting ideas, but the balance of power can be a little off. There's a Rosewater quote along the lines of "Development can make the players do whatever they want", meaning that regardless of intention, it's the power distribution in the set that determines how players behave (play). If you have a theme, but the development is off (e.g. balance of power), players can ignore said theme to just play the powerful cards instead.

I would also worry that pigeon-holing a mono-colored archetype limits the degree of layering you can build into your design.

 

[HannesVersmissen]

I'll update this first post when i have a clearer idea
As for now i only have this meager spreadsheet.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJbmiiuNrFPdGlXaTJpd3p2SXlGdGlQR2x4REFieUE#gid=8

The idea is a 360 cube containing 100+ lands, leaving less than 260 non-lands to be distributed between 8 players (around 32-33 non-lands on average). If you want to gather 20-24 playables, you'll have to do your best on every pick ! Drafting should be thight, Lands should remain high picks. Some of them shall even add utility or multifunctionality to your deck !

Split cards shall make up most of the multi-color cards, leaving enough breathing room for any deck to function.

 

[Jason Waddell]

Hi Hannes. So, is this in addition to your other cube or replacing it? Perhaps we should keep this all in one thread.

I'm going to be completely honest and say that perhaps you should try being a little less experimental in your design for now. That probably sounds weird coming from me, but it feels like some fundamentals are lacking here. As the phrase goes "you have to learn to walk before you can run", or perhaps in design terminology, you have to learn the rules before you break the rules.

I think what you want to do is step back and take a bird's eye "what am I trying to achieve" approach to things. Do you want your games to play at a retail draft pace? Like standard? Like modern? What kind of experience do you want to create? It seems like you really want to do something different (your last cube had no red 1 or 2 drops), but you're not quite sure how. You're breaking rules, but in a way that's not leading you to quite the experience that you're looking for.

So you've added 100 lands here. What's the purpose of that? I can tell you one thing that will happen is that you'll have a tiny design space to work with. My main cube has 44 lands, and I feel that every non-land slot is vital. They all help to add to the layering of my archetypes, to give it shape, to reward different types of drafting, to provide variability in the builds from week to week. With 260 non-land cards you're going to be squeezed. Players won't have much room to experiment, and your archetypes will be fairly rigid from draft to draft.


What might be useful is for you to really study some limited environments you have enjoyed before. What made them good? What did their curves look like? How did the archetypes interact with each other? Sets don't end up the way they are by accident, and a lot of the properties of any given set are there for specific reasons. Once you start to learn your way around that design space, you start to learn which rules help you and which can be broken.

EDIT: Merged the two threads for now.

 

[HannesVersmissen]

Hi Hannes. So, is this in addition to your other cube or replacing it? Perhaps we should keep this all in one thread.

I'm going to be completely honest and say that perhaps you should try being a little less experimental in your design for now. That probably sounds weird coming from me, but it feels like some fundamentals are lacking here. As the phrase goes "you have to learn to walk before you can run", or perhaps in design terminology, you have to learn the rules before you break the rules.

I think what you want to do is step back and take a bird's eye "what am I trying to achieve" approach to things. Do you want your games to play at a retail draft pace? Like standard? Like modern? What kind of experience do you want to create? It seems like you really want to do something different (your last cube had no red 1 or 2 drops), but you're not quite sure how. You're breaking rules, but in a way that's not leading you to quite the experience that you're looking for.

I was trying to break some rules, Look for what prevented me of achieving my goal, and then to go from there. (learning through experience or something like that.) However your comments are very true once more !

I'll focus on my main cube for now, but this cube was something to carve at quite slowly, until i got it right to the point where i wanted to start testing it. then i'd trade the cards and start the testing.

So you've added 100 lands here. What's the purpose of that? I can tell you one thing that will happen is that you'll have a tiny design space to work with. Mmain cube has 44 lands, and I feel that every non-land slot is vital. They all help to add to the layering of my archetypes, to give it shape, to reward different types of drafting, to provide variability in the builds from week to week. With 260 non-land cards you're going to be squeezed. Players won't have much room to experiment, and your archetypes will be fairly rigid from draft to draft.

What might be useful is for you to really study some limited environments you have enjoyed before. What made them good? What did their curves look like? How did the archetypes interact with each other? Sets don't end up the way they are by accident, and a lot of the properties of any given set are there for specific reasons. Once you start to learn your way around that design space, you start to learn which rules help you and which can be broken

Traditionally, my way to "get creative" is to get a really thight and difficult set of "rules", and look from there on how to properly execute a set/deck/drawing/etc. within that set of rules.
Here the idea was to have lands count towards the creature-count and "ability" count, creating an environment with low amounts of mana left for actively doing things on board that don't affect lands. games would be dictated by slightly shorter turns, more reactive chances on board and repetitive gain from cards. "incremental value" would be the main credo. The 260 would therefore be really focused, and not as bomby/splashy as a usual cube. In the end, games could be decided by who used their removal at the right moment, spent their mana maximally over the course of the game, and that in a way that small moves could leave a mark on multiple turns.

A though, "hard work" environment, where your resources are scarce and sought after.
I'll look into some environments and will try to get a better understanding of design, but i won't write the land-cube off just yet .

EDIT: Merged the two threads for now.

Thanks for that

 

[Jason Waddell]

Hannes, you raise some good points. Restrictions do breed creativity (thanks Rosewater), but the really really key thing to keep in mind is that creativity doesn't necessarily lead to good results.

In anything.

Further, it's often the people with the best technical skills that are able to leverage said creativity. If you want to build a really insane bridge, you first need to know a lot about how to build normal boring bridges. What aspects are essential to their design? Where is there room to maneuver? In this sense, your technical skill actually expands your ability to be creative, because you will understand the design space better.

The same thing happens in Magic. The people building the most insane decks (e.g. Travis Woo, Conley Woods, etc.) also have an immense foundation of technical skill. They know how to play Tier 1 decks. They know how to evaluate the weaknesses in decks and metagames. They understand how deckbuilding relates to mulliganing. They know how to build a sideboard. Without these things they'd just be guys going 1 - 3 with crazy decks at their weekly FNM.

As for recommendations, Mark Rosewater's articles and the "In Development" series have some really good content.

 

[HannesVersmissen]

Went ahead and updated my cube after aquiring some goodies at saturday's prerelease !

Harsh criticism wanted

Gatecrash goodies:

Voice of resurgence
Warleader's Helix
Spike Jester
Ready // Willing
Catch // Release
toil//Trouble
Turn//burn
Armed//Dangerous
Far//Away
Alive//Well
Profit//Loss
Pyrewild Shaman
Boros Mastiff

 

[Jason Waddell]

Are you at 360 cards? Because your gold sections are rather large, especially relative to your fixing.

I don't find Boros Mastiff to be an appealing card at all, as Lifelink is largely irrelevant to attacking decks. Aggro still looks super unsupported, and your black curve is outrageously 3-drop heavy.

I also see you're running Timely Reinforcements, which seems beyond excessive considering how underpowered aggro already is in your cube.

 

[HannesVersmissen]

I left the cuts in as being marked red. this might've confused you. i cut timely today for being to aggro-taxing
i'll proceed top remove the cuts now then.

 

[Eric Chan]

After a very quick glance at your list, I might warn you that your four-drop sections feels a bit.. clogged. Speaking in really general terms, I find that durdly midrange decks thrive in environments with a preponderance of four-drops. I can't really speak for your cube in particular, but it's one thing to watch out for, if you find that people are getting away with jamming lots of slow, non-synergistic cards without being punished for it.

 

[HannesVersmissen]

I'm trying to give each color some identity, going from the "archetype anchor" idea, filling up the rest of the sections with strong or decent cards that as an added benefit have an interaction with a certain "anchor" card.
Trying to get each section down and dirty into the aggro area. i'm gonna disregard my previous plans, and try to get each color to perform optimal as a aggro color + either a midrange or a control plan. distribution i'm aiming at is the earlier mentioned 3/2/1, however i'm having difficulty aggro up to "3" while using decent cards and not emptying my wallet.

I'm also cleaning out many sections of useless cards, cards that don't have a single synergy or have no home in my cube.

 

[Jason Waddell]

If you're worried about cost I would double up on the cheap efficient aggro creatures (e.g. Rakdos Cackler). Also, if you can only get aggro up to a certain strength, only push other archetypes to that strength as well. Don't let your wallet produce an unbalanced environment.

 

[HannesVersmissen]

I got my hands on two of the new Vengevine promo's. i'm quite excited to build with this card, and mill most likley try to tailor both my black and my green suite accordingly. G/B aggro shall take home the gold!

(in the current setting there's a ridiculous draw where you get to attack with a 6/6 wild mongrel and two vengevines, backed up by talara's batallion and one or more basking rootwallas on turn two. it requires 8 cards to set up though i'll be trying to get that deck over the "only once in a dozen really effective" status with some support in many colors so i can have strong aggro-deck in my cube )

 

[Jason Waddell]

Vengevine + Entomb + Gravecrawlers = fun times

EDIT: trust me, I'm a statistician

 

[HannesVersmissen]

I'd trust you. Entomb is a bit to expensive for my taste's though. Guess i'll be maxing out on 0-cost critters, combined with equipment to tie those guys in. (maybe a glint hawk?)

 

[Jason Waddell]

Gold-bordered Entomb.

 

[HannesVersmissen]

I update my list. Most notable are many more aggro cards, or faster "Staple" Cards. Bitterblossom, Figure of destiny, Blood scrivener Amongst others.
I need lands ASAP to make aggro extremely viable in one go. I'm looking for the last few RTR duals (i have five of the original Shocks, and am looking for the other five; but in the mean the others will do just fine) and many more checklands to replace the current fixing. aditionally i only need 2 more manlands and 5 more painlands. Fastlands might up the ficing count to 40, but 35 + Vivids and extra's seems fine to me.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJbmiiuNrFPdDFwRVNtQ05URG9LN01KdkhtWWE3Wmc#gid=0

 

[HannesVersmissen]

http://cubetutor.com/draft/186 !

 

[HannesVersmissen]

I'm thinking about moving in Thundercloud shaman as an anchor together with the american titans (no grave or primeval) /Ruhan of the fomori and Jötun Grunt (Great beatdown) / Jötun Owl Keeper and Cloudgoat ranger (overlap w/ tokens) / Desolation giant and Furystoke giant. (sweepers) This increases the amount of red-based sweep once more, so most likely one or two will get the axe once i gathered these cards.

Opinions ?

 

[Jason Waddell]

This would be the first instance (that I am aware of) of Giant tribal as an archetype. However, the Titans kind of win the game on their own and I'm not sure if your cube has nearly enough fuel to keep a Jotun grunt online.

 

[HannesVersmissen]

How do you expand on Jötun grunts Survival without using a graveyard centered cube? The first things that spring to mind are about using Archive Trap or Increasing Confusion. I could replace him with Kithkin Greatheart.

Some more neat litte support cards:
Ivory giant (overlaps with a White Weenie as a Finisher)
Stinkdrinker Daredevil (Turn 4 Titan. Might not do this ^^')

 

[Jason Waddell]

You just increase the speed at which things go in the graveyard. Fetchlands, Thought Scour, etc. Also, it should be noted that Vintage has a prominant dredge deck. CML also runs a fair share of Dredge cards too.

 

[Dom Harvey]

Thundercloud Shaman seems really cool if you run enough Changelings (Shapesharer, Mirror Entity, Taurean Mauler, Chameleon Colossus, the universally beloved Changeling Berserker/Titan; Cairn Wanderer can be a really fun card to support as well). Also, two of the best Giants are omitted from that list: Countryside Crusher and Brion Stoutarm. I guess there's Ondu Giant as well?

 

[HannesVersmissen]

@Dom: Countryside crusher and Brion Stoutarm are ommited from the list because regardless of the theme they were already in my cube to begin with (Ruhan was in there as well though, but i felt like mentioning him because he's less obvious)
Taurean mauler is in there as well. Shape sharer looks really interesting, and mirror entity could round the changelings out. i'm not too fond of either changeling titan nor Cairn wanderer. They both seem to be quite mana/resources intensive compared to the previous three.

I'm adding in Inferno and Frost Titan as we speak. This is giving me a great reason not to include Primeval and Grave titan (they give me the most headaches. Primeval because of mis-judgement, Grave because of powerlevel (inferno is in there as well, but i guess he'll be on an extremely close watch. He might get "Gideon-ed")

@Jason: I'll see if i'll be able to overload on cheap fetch and some cantrips for the time being. i already have some dredge and a mild green discard theme present as well.

 

[HannesVersmissen]

An update to the list:
http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/186

So the base of the giant decks has seen play already, and ruhan is awfully polar, but interestingly so.
The titan's prove to be "fair", as in not ridiculously overpowerd.

I'm going to expand on an enchantment theme at the same time, and i'll be looking for overlap between many themes and enchatments. The new Awaken the Ancient seem's like a place to start